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PrintableAzureStar said: sag10 said: AzureStar said: sag10 said: The only persons you are responsible for is yourself and your children..
Don't play saviour it doesn't work... I know, Sag... but it's so hard. AnotherLover has been trying to pound that into my brain over other things regarding him... but it's hard for me to just turn my back on anyone... even him. I know hun, you are a wonderful person. And just be careful... you are not his caretaker. He is a grown man...trying to trap you into pity. Yeah... well... so this is it and I am done with it and done talking about it... I do thank you all for your responses... (edit: this here read kind of harsh... I am not being snotty to you, Sag... I think you know that anyway... I'm just really frustrated and angry right now with him and am not going to concern myself with it anymore). I drove over there and his car is in the drive. Beat on the door and he doesn't answer. Call him... he answers. He's sleeping. I went off on him, basically telling him what a loser he is for sleeping in all day because he's feeling bad about himself because he drank last night and that I am tired of being called to help him or being made to feel bad for leaving. I then told him that if he isn't willing to help himself, don't expect anyone else to be willing to help him either. He said, "Thanks for that, that made me feel better." and hung up the phone on me. Fuck it. You know what... you're right, slm4m, and I'm tired of this. I have my own shit to deal with right now and it is too draining on me to worry about if he is okay or if there is anything that I can do to help him. I can't. It's as simple as that. I cannot do it. There is nothing more sorry to me than seeing a person allow themselves to be destroyed. I hate that I do it (though not in this same manner) and I hate to see anyone else do it. But I cannot "save" him... I had a hard enough time saving myself. . [This message was edited Thu May 8 12:39:09 PDT 2003 by AzureStar] Sometimes our frustration & anger bring us to the right answer. Are you going to be alright? | |
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slm4m said: AzureStar said: sag10 said: AzureStar said: sag10 said: The only persons you are responsible for is yourself and your children..
Don't play saviour it doesn't work... I know, Sag... but it's so hard. AnotherLover has been trying to pound that into my brain over other things regarding him... but it's hard for me to just turn my back on anyone... even him. I know hun, you are a wonderful person. And just be careful... you are not his caretaker. He is a grown man...trying to trap you into pity. Yeah... well... so this is it and I am done with it and done talking about it... I do thank you all for your responses... (edit: this here read kind of harsh... I am not being snotty to you, Sag... I think you know that anyway... I'm just really frustrated and angry right now with him and am not going to concern myself with it anymore). I drove over there and his car is in the drive. Beat on the door and he doesn't answer. Call him... he answers. He's sleeping. I went off on him, basically telling him what a loser he is for sleeping in all day because he's feeling bad about himself because he drank last night and that I am tired of being called to help him or being made to feel bad for leaving. I then told him that if he isn't willing to help himself, don't expect anyone else to be willing to help him either. He said, "Thanks for that, that made me feel better." and hung up the phone on me. Fuck it. You know what... you're right, slm4m, and I'm tired of this. I have my own shit to deal with right now and it is too draining on me to worry about if he is okay or if there is anything that I can do to help him. I can't. It's as simple as that. I cannot do it. There is nothing more sorry to me than seeing a person allow themselves to be destroyed. I hate that I do it (though not in this same manner) and I hate to see anyone else do it. But I cannot "save" him... I had a hard enough time saving myself. . [This message was edited Thu May 8 12:39:09 PDT 2003 by AzureStar] Sometimes our frustration & anger bring us to the right answer. Are you going to be alright? I'll be fine... I'm just very, very angry with him right now. He has really disappointed me more than he ever has before at this particular moment. Do whatever you want to me... but when you do something like this to yourself AND your kids... it makes me very, very angry. | |
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Just be okay Azure!  ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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Well, have a cup of tea, & relax | |
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I shall... thanks you guys.
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Azure, he's drinking when he should be sleeping because he doesn't want to wake up. He doesn't want to wake up because he feels he doesn't have anything worthwhile waking up for. Basically, he's not happy with his life but this is highly unlikely to be rooted in the fact that you left him. I have no doubt he will make you feel that you are the reason but this is because it's the most identifiable rationale behind his behaviour. His issues run deeper and he needs to identify and address what these are. This will be difficult for him to do so himself primarily because he is not in any state of mind to do so.
In short, he needs professional assistance with this but I really don't think you are best positioned to admister the process for a number of reasons. I won't go into these here. Regardless, the immediate issue is that he will be unwilling to seek such help unless he feels like he has that reason for waking up in the morning. Right now, he might be thinking that reason is you. Whilst it's to your credit that you have volunteered playing this role, it really needs to come from someone who wants to more readily continue to be part of his life post this problem being resolved i.e. his family, loved ones or friends. That said, it will be very useful that you continue to show your support as the mother of his children. You need to do this in a more helpful way though. For your sake, and more importantly for his, identify who these people actually are. Perhaps with your help, you can help these people create a constructive environment around his destructive behaviour. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of resources for one to use and understand how to create this support environment around him. If it requires you to set this up, then so be it. Otherwise, this problem will continue if no-one undertakes this role. Heather, for your children's sake, don't abandon this situation just yet. Afterall, they have their father to look forward to when the time is right. I'm positive there is a way through this so if you want to talk in private, you know how to get hold of me.
. [This message was edited Thu May 8 14:08:15 PDT 2003 by Anji] | |
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AzureStar said: I shall... thanks you guys.
Your Welcome... anytime. | |
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Anji said: Azure, he's drinking when he should be sleeping because he doesn't want to wake up. He doesn't want to wake up because he feels he doesn't have anything worthwhile waking up for. Basically, he's not happy with his life but this is highly unlikely to be rooted in the fact that you left him. I have no doubt he will make you feel that you are the reason but this is because it's the most identifiable rationale behind his behaviour. His issues run deeper and he needs to identify and address what these are. This will be difficult for him to so himself because he is not in a state to do so. Also, very few people I have come across know what makes them tick.
In short, he needs professional assistance with this but I really don't think you are best positioned to admister the process for a number of reasons. The immediate issue is that he will be unwilling to seek such help unless he feels like he has that reason for waking up in the morning. Right now, he might be thinking that reason is you. Whilst it's to your credit that you have volunteered playing this role, it really needs to come from someone who wants to more readily continue to be part of his life post his problem being resolved i.e. his family, loved ones or friends. That said, it will be very useful that you show your support as the mother of his children. For your sake, and more importantly for his, identify who these people actually are. Perhaps with your help, you can help these people create a constructive environment around his destructive behaviour. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of resources for you to use and understand how to create this environment around him. If it requires you to set up this support system, then so be it. Otherwise, this problem will continue if no-one undertakes this role. Heather, for your children's sake, don't abandon this situation just yet. Afterall, they have their father to look forward to when the time is right. I'm positive there is a way through this so if you want to talk in private, you know how to get hold of me. Anji... thank you. You, once again, make a lot of sense. *hugs 2 u 2* | |
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I don't know Anji, maybe I am wrong but Azzie has been taking on this role for many, many years..
This kind of behaviour scares me. It is destructive and I believe it is meant to get Azures attention.. It seems to me that she is fighting for her right to be free, and he is fighting to keep her trapped, because he is the father of her children. This is just my opinion.. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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Tell him to go to AA. Be tough with him. [This message was edited Thu May 8 14:33:57 PDT 2003 by Stomper] | |
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sag10 said: I don't know Anji, maybe I am wrong but Azzie has been taking on this role for many, many years..
I understand and, in many ways, agree with what you have said.
This kind of behaviour scares me. It is destructive and I believe it is meant to get Azures attention.. It seems to me that she is fighting for her right to be free, and he is fighting to keep her trapped, because he is the father of her children. This is just my opinion.. Although people here might think this guy is behaving this way to hurt Azure, I simply disagree about this premise (even if he himself thinks he's doing this). On a simple level, what's actually happening is that he's reflecting deep-seated insecurities from significant events in his life and he's doing so on the most readily available targets to him. Many people faced in his position, and with his past, would be doing this. It's quite natural. Based on the fact that Azure no longer wants to be with him, she needs to understand how she can be most effective in dealing with this situation. To do this, she actually needs to understand what is best for her ex. Luckily, that's the way she's been trying to think anyway (it's actually the most healthy way of being - so well done, Babooney!) When she fully understands what's best for him, and how, she will begin to appreciate that her role needs to be redefined in order for these goals to be achieved; as an example, she should spend less energy in dealing with phonecalls at 3am in the morning, and more energy with setting up a structure that can support that. I would imagine he needs a degree of professional guidance but for this to be accepted, he needs to first be given a reason to want to live. That comes from love and Azure is simply the wrong person at this time to be providing that kind of love to him (even if he feels she's the one he needs it from). It needs to come from elsewhere. Perhaps, Azure can begin to help define who these people are.
. [This message was edited Thu May 8 14:55:18 PDT 2003 by Anji] | |
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Anji said: sag10 said: I don't know Anji, maybe I am wrong but Azzie has been taking on this role for many, many years..
I understand and, in many ways, agree with what you have said.
This kind of behaviour scares me. It is destructive and I believe it is meant to get Azures attention.. It seems to me that she is fighting for her right to be free, and he is fighting to keep her trapped, because he is the father of her children. This is just my opinion.. Although people here might think this guy is behaving this way to hurt Azure, I simply disagree about this premise (even if he himself thinks he's doing this). On a simple level, what's actually happening is that he's reflecting deep-seated insecurities from significant events in his life and he's doing so on the most readily available targets to him. Many people faced in his position, and with his past, would be doing this. It's quite natural. Based on the fact that Azure no longer wants to be with him, she needs to understand how she can be most effective in dealing with this situation. To do this, she actually needs to understand what is best for her ex. Luckily, that's the way she's been trying to think anyway (it's actually the most healthy way of being - so well done, Babooney!) When she fully understands what's best for him, and how, she will begin to appreciate that her role needs to be redefined in order for these goals to be achieved; as an example, she should spend less energy in dealing with phonecalls at 3am in the morning, and more energy with setting up a structure that can support that. I would imagine he needs a degree of professional guidance but for this to be accepted, he needs to first be given a reason to want to live. That comes from love and Azure is simply the wrong person at this time to be providing that kind of love to him (even if he feels she's the one he needs it from). It needs to come from elsewhere. Perhaps, Azure can begin to help define who these people are.
. [This message was edited Thu May 8 14:55:18 PDT 2003 by Anji] This makes sense... How about dinner! ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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sag10 said: Anji said: sag10 said: I don't know Anji, maybe I am wrong but Azzie has been taking on this role for many, many years..
I understand and, in many ways, agree with what you have said.
This kind of behaviour scares me. It is destructive and I believe it is meant to get Azures attention.. It seems to me that she is fighting for her right to be free, and he is fighting to keep her trapped, because he is the father of her children. This is just my opinion.. Although people here might think this guy is behaving this way to hurt Azure, I simply disagree about this premise (even if he himself thinks he's doing this). On a simple level, what's actually happening is that he's reflecting deep-seated insecurities from significant events in his life and he's doing so on the most readily available targets to him. Many people faced in his position, and with his past, would be doing this. It's quite natural. Based on the fact that Azure no longer wants to be with him, she needs to understand how she can be most effective in dealing with this situation. To do this, she actually needs to understand what is best for her ex. Luckily, that's the way she's been trying to think anyway (it's actually the most healthy way of being - so well done, Babooney!) When she fully understands what's best for him, and how, she will begin to appreciate that her role needs to be redefined in order for these goals to be achieved; as an example, she should spend less energy in dealing with phonecalls at 3am in the morning, and more energy with setting up a structure that can support that. I would imagine he needs a degree of professional guidance but for this to be accepted, he needs to first be given a reason to want to live. That comes from love and Azure is simply the wrong person at this time to be providing that kind of love to him (even if he feels she's the one he needs it from). It needs to come from elsewhere. Perhaps, Azure can begin to help define who these people are.
. This makes sense... How about dinner!  | |
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Honestly, I think the only help you can offer is to be totally frank. No bull, no sparing the feelings... and a good script. It goes a little bit like this :
Dring! Him : Hello... I need your help. I need you to call me at 6. You : Sure, I'll help you... but not by calling you at 6. Him : Why? Can't you just do this for me? You : That's not "help". If that were help, you wouldn't be calling me in the middle of the night. The only way I will call you at 6 is to pick you up and drive you to some detox center. Him : (his choice) You : I want to help. This is not help. Call me when you want real help... when you want something that will actually improve your situation. And you know damn well what it will take. So call me... if you need this help. It's the only thing I can do for you that doesn't waste everyone's energy, including mine... and yours. Him : (his choice) | |
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Maybe an Exorcism is in Order for this Man. To Drive Out the Demon Spirit which lives in him. | |
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... Mr. Ellis Dee-licious, the Official NPGigolo 
Candy Dulfer is my boo...  | |
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Aerogram said: Honestly, I think the only help you can offer is to be totally frank. No bull, no sparing the feelings... and a good script. It goes a little bit like this :
Dring! Him : Hello... I need your help. I need you to call me at 6. You : Sure, I'll help you... but not by calling you at 6. Him : Why? Can't you just do this for me? You : That's not "help". If that were help, you wouldn't be calling me in the middle of the night. The only way I will call you at 6 is to pick you up and drive you to some detox center. Him : (his choice) You : I want to help. This is not help. Call me when you want real help... when you want something that will actually improve your situation. And you know damn well what it will take. So call me... if you need this help. It's the only thing I can do for you that doesn't waste everyone's energy, including mine... and yours. Him : (his choice) Spot on. | |
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Aerogram said: Honestly, I think the only help you can offer is to be totally frank. No bull, no sparing the feelings... and a good script. It goes a little bit like this :
Dring! Him : Hello... I need your help. I need you to call me at 6. You : Sure, I'll help you... but not by calling you at 6. Him : Why? Can't you just do this for me? You : That's not "help". If that were help, you wouldn't be calling me in the middle of the night. The only way I will call you at 6 is to pick you up and drive you to some detox center. Him : (his choice) You : I want to help. This is not help. Call me when you want real help... when you want something that will actually improve your situation. And you know damn well what it will take. So call me... if you need this help. It's the only thing I can do for you that doesn't waste everyone's energy, including mine... and yours. Him : (his choice) More good advice... I am going to have to just do this. Thanks again, for the wonderful advice... you can always count on you guys... | |
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Anji said: sag10 said: I don't know Anji, maybe I am wrong but Azzie has been taking on this role for many, many years..
I understand and, in many ways, agree with what you have said.
This kind of behaviour scares me. It is destructive and I believe it is meant to get Azures attention.. It seems to me that she is fighting for her right to be free, and he is fighting to keep her trapped, because he is the father of her children. This is just my opinion.. Although people here might think this guy is behaving this way to hurt Azure, I simply disagree about this premise (even if he himself thinks he's doing this). On a simple level, what's actually happening is that he's reflecting deep-seated insecurities from significant events in his life and he's doing so on the most readily available targets to him. Many people faced in his position, and with his past, would be doing this. It's quite natural. Based on the fact that Azure no longer wants to be with him, she needs to understand how she can be most effective in dealing with this situation. To do this, she actually needs to understand what is best for her ex. Luckily, that's the way she's been trying to think anyway (it's actually the most healthy way of being - so well done, Babooney!) When she fully understands what's best for him, and how, she will begin to appreciate that her role needs to be redefined in order for these goals to be achieved; as an example, she should spend less energy in dealing with phonecalls at 3am in the morning, and more energy with setting up a structure that can support that. I would imagine he needs a degree of professional guidance but for this to be accepted, he needs to first be given a reason to want to live. That comes from love and Azure is simply the wrong person at this time to be providing that kind of love to him (even if he feels she's the one he needs it from). It needs to come from elsewhere. Perhaps, Azure can begin to help define who these people are.
. [This message was edited Thu May 8 14:55:18 PDT 2003 by Anji] I've found that addicts are, by nature, usually very self- absorbed. They are concerned only with where the next good feeling will come from to temporarily relieve the mental/emotional pain. This doesn't make them "bad people", but it also shouldn't allow them to hurt others without consequences. Even though the ex may not intentionally be trying to hurt Azure with his behavior, I think he is certainly being completely self-pitying and selfish (note his reply to what she said to him: something like, "oh, that makes me feel better"), and attempting to unload his stuff on Azure. As if kinder words from her would've miraculously made everything better 
I don't know that Azure is the one to know "what is best" for him, taking on the maternal role (which she says she has been doing with him for 10 yrs now). She, as a sane and non-addicted person, sure knows what's "better" for him, but not necessarily what is "best". I think that's something he could discover for himself during treatment/attending meetings, actually, with the help of others who are going through recovery themselves (professionals and/or "regular" people). I definitely agree that he needs to find a reason to live, and that the reason cannot be dependent upon Azure being with him, but I strongly believe HE has to be the one to figure out what/who that will be. Setting a bunch of goals for someone else, without their desire to accomplish said goals, is almost always unsuccessful. I've found that the person usually becomes resentful and loses motivation when striving for someone else's dream for them... | |
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AzureStar said: Aerogram said: Honestly, I think the only help you can offer is to be totally frank. No bull, no sparing the feelings... and a good script. It goes a little bit like this :
Dring! Him : Hello... I need your help. I need you to call me at 6. You : Sure, I'll help you... but not by calling you at 6. Him : Why? Can't you just do this for me? You : That's not "help". If that were help, you wouldn't be calling me in the middle of the night. The only way I will call you at 6 is to pick you up and drive you to some detox center. Him : (his choice) You : I want to help. This is not help. Call me when you want real help... when you want something that will actually improve your situation. And you know damn well what it will take. So call me... if you need this help. It's the only thing I can do for you that doesn't waste everyone's energy, including mine... and yours. Him : (his choice) More good advice... I am going to have to just do this. Thanks again, for the wonderful advice... you can always count on you guys... That would work... setting limits is a good idea. The key is telling him to make up his mind to change and become a healthier person. | |
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He called last night about 11:00 or so and apologized for being a complete prick to me earlier when I talked to him (he was sober). Then he put me on hold to take another call, and didn't get back with me for a while, ended up I just called him back and told him I'd talk to him tomorrow (today).
My plan is this... to be blunt and tell him what reality is... basically how he is fucking up. He's smarter than this... I don't know what he's thinking. But, to be honest. He's not going to stop drinking. I can tell you that already. When he called last night he was happy and it was basically like now that he is over being depressed and feeling sorry for himself, everything is fine. He'll be at the bar on Saturday after work, guaranteed. Thanks again you guys... | |
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It seems like you are on the right track with him. He has a good friend in you. Be firm & don't back down from anything you say to him regarding his drinking.
Its too bad that it seems that he will not stop drinking. It sounds like he needs to get away from the "bar scene" & his "bar friends" [This message was edited Fri May 9 9:37:12 PDT 2003 by slm4m] | |
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Look Azure just go over to his house and kick his ass...  ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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sag10 said: Look Azure just go over to his house and kick his ass...
By the way, did you get my thank you card? ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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