uPtoWnNY said:

nayroo2002 said:

Wasn't 'Unbreakable' amidst a trilogy?

Sam Jackson, Bruce Willis and that other guy playing a multi-personality?

Then, they were all brought together in a final film?

I'd rather WD explain it than me looking it up!

[Edited 2/3/23 13:03pm]

Yeah, they call it the "East Rail 177 Trilogy", but I don't really stan the trilogy, just Unbreakable. Although Split is supposed to be really good, too. Split's a pretty badass character, too, though, not gonna lie, his movie's probably good.

M. Night originally planned it as a trilogy back in 2000, but he got kinda emo over the initial tepid reaction to Unbreakable and he didn't return to the material for many years, which kindas hurt the consistency a bit.

ShellyMcG said:

Your favourite superhero movies are the ones I've never seen . I'll definitely watch them at some point soon though. My son is going through a phase now where he wants to watch all the old superhero movies. Even he must be bored with the new ones lol. My personal favourite superhero movie, and one of my favourite movies of all time, is The Mask Of Zorro. For my money, that movie has everything. Beautiful cast, good story, good performances, great action, romance and revenge.

The Mask of Zorro, noice. Love a good left-field choice, never seen that one repped. I'm not as big of a movie person as I once was, but I'll try and give that a shot if it's streaming somewhere.

Your son will probably not pull up Unbreakable in his recs, but it's by far the most unique/"arty" of the superhero genre, even 23 years later somehow comic books have never been treated with the reverence that movie (a completely original story, btw) gives comics and superhero lore.

I skimmed some YouTube reaction videos, and if you're willing to buy into the world it presents it offers so much in return. I also love that one of the main characters is intensely super serious about his comic books to the extent he refuses to sell some art work to a kid's parent, because it's not kiddie shit, it's serious business.


Batman Begins is most important to the Dark Knight Trilogy because the romance/friendship of the Rachel Dawes character, who gets a bit diluted into the usual James Bond damsel-of-the-week in the sequel.

Most of the time the lame romances in these superhero movies are part of why they're so awful. Batman Begins and Unbreakable have the most complex/unique romances of the superhero genre, too. Likely why they have more emotional weight. Arrow as well.

[Edited 2/5/23 0:33am]

uPtoWnNY said:

As for the MCU, I was done after Endgame, thanks to the idiots at Disney.

Endgame was bad. The part 1 of that was lame, too, Infinity Wars was it?

I hate the integration of the "blip" and all this retcon horseshit. The modern nerd will defend it as being part of the comics, but all the OG comic nerds I knew back in the 90s absolutely hated that "blip"-type similar stuff in the comics. It was ridiculous then, and even cornier in the genre of film now.

ShellyMcG said:

I'm about to say something controversial. The kind of thing that could have my "nerd card" revoked. Are you ready? Here goes... I kind of liked Batman Forever.

It's solid enough. I've always thought Kilmer was solid, too. Maybe the best at being both Batman and Bruce Wayne, most other actors excel at one or the other. Prime Jim Carrey is always worth a spin.

The tone is a good blend between cartoonish and serious. The art direction/colors/direction is the worst part, the rest is decent/enjoyable enough. Tommy Lee Jones' acting was stupid. Somehow Ace Ventura / The Mask-era Jim Carrey was significantly less over-the-top.

It's definitely more enjoyable than the OG Tim Burton Batman from 1989, which is just pure nostalgia when people say they like that one. It can be very boring. Also, "Kiss from a Rose" is better than any of Prince's horrible Batman '89 tracks. My first childhood encounter with Prince was asking my mom why the Joker's music isn't remotely like anything like the tone or style of the movie. "It's Prince!" "...yeah, okay, well, it doesn't fit." And it gets worse every successive year.

Batman Returns is the unparalleled King of the 80s/90s Batmovies.

[Edited 2/5/23 0:51am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

Yeah you should definitely give Zorro a try if you've never seen it. They made a sequel too but that wasn't great. Another cool thing about The Mask Of Zorro, aside from the action, romance, performances etc, was that it was simultaneously an origin story as well as almost like a continuation of the old Zorro movies. Anthony Hopkins plays Diego De La Vega, AKA Zorro from the old movies and original stories. He's older now and unable to continue as Zorro so he decides to train a new guy, Antonio Banderas, as his replacement. I don't want to give any more details that that because it's better to go in as fresh as possible.

One aspect of the movie that I particularly like is how it incorporates actual, real life history. The character of Zorro was originally based on a guy called Juaquin Murrieta. He had a pretty colourful life. His story could easily be made into a movie. But anyway, Juaquin Murrieta appears as a character in The Mask Of Zorro as Antonio Banderas' character's brother. And he even serves as inspiration for Antonio to take up the mantle as Zorro. So the real life inspiration for Zorro is also the fictional inspiration for Zorro. Which I think is kind of cool.

WhisperingDandelions said:

uPtoWnNY said:

As for the MCU, I was done after Endgame, thanks to the idiots at Disney.

Endgame was bad. The part 1 of that was lame, too, Infinity Wars was it?

I hate the integration of the "blip" and all this retcon horseshit. The modern nerd will defend it as being part of the comics, but all the OG comic nerds I knew back in the 90s absolutely hated that "blip"-type similar stuff in the comics. It was ridiculous then, and even cornier in the genre of film now.

ShellyMcG said:

I'm about to say something controversial. The kind of thing that could have my "nerd card" revoked. Are you ready? Here goes... I kind of liked Batman Forever.

It's solid enough. I've always thought Kilmer was solid, too. Maybe the best at being both Batman and Bruce Wayne, most other actors excel at one or the other. Prime Jim Carrey is always worth a spin.

The tone is a good blend between cartoonish and serious. The art direction/colors/direction is the worst part, the rest is decent/enjoyable enough. Tommy Lee Jones' acting was stupid. Somehow Ace Ventura / The Mask-era Jim Carrey was significantly less over-the-top.

It's definitely more enjoyable than the OG Tim Burton Batman from 1989, which is just pure nostalgia when people say they like that one. It can be very boring. Also, "Kiss from a Rose" is better than any of Prince's horrible Batman '89 tracks. My first childhood encounter with Prince was asking my mom why the Joker's music isn't remotely like anything like the tone or style of the movie. "It's Prince!" "...yeah, okay, well, it doesn't fit." And it gets worse every successive year.

Batman Returns is the unparalleled King of the 80s/90s Batmovies.

[Edited 2/5/23 0:51am]

Disney did to marvel what they did to the Star Wars sequels.....horrible writing, and ruining certain characters.

To this day, my favorite MCU film is 2008's "The Incredible Hulk". Universal got the character right, before Disney turned him into comic relief.

When it comes to The Dark Knight, I want it totally serious, no campy bs. Love the Nolan films and Affleck's portrayal in BvS.

uPtoWnNY said:

I don't know if you're into videogames but you should check out the Arkham series of games. It's my favourite version of Batman (and associated characters) in any media.

ShellyMcG said:

I don't know if you're into videogames but you should check out the Arkham series of games. It's my favourite version of Batman (and associated characters) in any media.

It's good, but no Batman Begins.

.

You really gotta check that out before making sweeping declarations. Better than the animated series, better than Burton, better than Arkham, better than The Heath Ledger Show, etc.

WhisperingDandelions said:

I'll watch it this week.

kpowers said:

I always hear people raving about this movie so I'll make sure I check this out too. Is this like a continuation of the animated series or is it a separate thing? Like, would I have to watch the cartoon first to properly follow it or could I just jump straight into the movie?

ShellyMcG said:

kpowers said:

I always hear people raving about this movie so I'll make sure I check this out too. Is this like a continuation of the animated series or is it a separate thing? Like, would I have to watch the cartoon first to properly follow it or could I just jump straight into the movie?

The best Batman movie ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can just jump straight into the movie

ShellyMcG said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

It's good, but no Batman Begins.

.

You really gotta check that out before making sweeping declarations. Better than the animated series, better than Burton, better than Arkham, better than The Heath Ledger Show, etc.

I'll watch it this week.

z0mfg.

Mask of the Phantasm is great, too, nice rec. kpowers got that avatar on lock. Even Siskel&Ebert raved over that one, even apologized profusely for overlooking the theatrical release and told everyone to rent the home video.

uPtoWnNY said:

When it comes to The Dark Knight, I want it totally serious, no campy bs. Love the Nolan films and Affleck's portrayal in BvS.

Batfleck was damn solid as Bat. His Bruce Wayne was ok. The Batman stuff was admittedly cool in Batman v. Superman.. it's literally everything besides Batman that's the problem with that movie.

and your love of Man of Steel made me kinda reassess it. It is a damn good movie even if the sequels kinda undermine it. It's like The Matrix, for awhile I was like ugh after those crappy sequels soured the concept, but the OG is still quality.

[Edited 2/7/23 18:24pm]

ShellyMcG said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Disney did to marvel what they did to the Star Wars sequels.....horrible writing, and ruining certain characters.

To this day, my favorite MCU film is 2008's "The Incredible Hulk". Universal got the character right, before Disney turned him into comic relief.

When it comes to The Dark Knight, I want it totally serious, no campy bs. Love the Nolan films and Affleck's portrayal in BvS.

I don't know if you're into videogames but you should check out the Arkham series of games. It's my favourite version of Batman (and associated characters) in any media.

I've been an avid gamer since the Atari 2600/Colecovision days. But I only play certain franchises (Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Grand Theft Auto, Madden, NBA 2K, Unreal Tournament).

uPtoWnNY said:

I don't play any of those games . That's not entirely true. I've played GTA V. I thought it was ok but not as good as most people say. It kind of felt like I was doing the same thing over and over.

The Batman games are really good though. You can get them all dirt cheap now too.

ShellyMcG said:

kpowers said:

I always hear people raving about this movie so I'll make sure I check this out too. Is this like a continuation of the animated series or is it a separate thing? Like, would I have to watch the cartoon first to properly follow it or could I just jump straight into the movie?

Are you going to watch it? If so would like to hear your thoughts on it. I think Emma saw it.

kpowers said:

Yeah, she is one of the people I mentioned who rave about it. I haven't watched it yet but I will do soon. Maybe today or tomorrow. I'm off work the next two days so I might just watch it when my son is in school. Then, if I like it, I'll watch it again with him one of the nights.

Ok that Flash movie trailer looks pretty good. I don't really know why they're bringing Michael Keaton back. He was a great Batman in his day. Maybe my favourite Batman? Although that's like saying that someone is the nicest guy in prison. But I get that he's a popular actor and his version is often cited as being the best. But it feels like nostalgia just for the sake of it. Having said that, the movie looks pretty cool. I like the new Supergirl too. I know my cousin was really critical of the actress playing Supergirl but I think she looks awesome and to be honest, I don't think Emma would want anyone but herself in the role so there's that . But yeah, I think she looks great.

I have seen rumours of Christian Bale and Christopher Reeve showing up for cameos too which, if they happen, could go either way. On the one hand, it's just more nostalgia just for the sake of it and completely unnecessary. Plus, Christopher Reeve would have to be CGI or a body double or something. And that's never good. But I can also see a positive to these potential cameos because if this Flash movie is what they're using to herald in a new era of DC, then it kind of makes sense for it to also be like a celebration of everything that has come before it. So in that respect, I almost hope these rumours are true.

Flashpoint looks awful. Michael Keaton is the only remotely hype thing about that trailer. The net reaction would be mild, bleh, or completely unethused without Keaton. Even I'm 1000% hype for this piece of trash now. Take my money WB Discovery DC, well played.

This is clearly going to be a Spider-Man: No Way Home situation where it's absolutely must-see regardless of quality control or complete lack thereof, for that sweet sweet hit of pure uncut china-white nostalgia. Even more so, because it looks like they're gonna completely jack Marvel's candy-coated tone for this one. The camera angles/vibe of this version of the Keaton Bat is so completely off compared to the Burton style, but it doesn't even matter.

Still pissed they canned Batgirl, we were gonna get even more Keaton. Proof positive Zaslav has no idea what he's doing with the next era of DC. The studio publically admitted Batgirl was shelved for being unwatchable, but it still would have raked in piles of cash. Keaton puts asses in the seats.

Younger gen underrates/overlooks just what a pure phenom Batman 89 was. It's literally the bigbang moment of nerd culture as it exists today. That generation ate, drank and slept that yellow and black Bat symbol, and they will show up in droves with their kids and grandkids to witness the Return of their Batman.


Anyway, this movie was designed to "herald in a new" nothing. It's a reset. But watch DC/Gunn quickly wise up and change course again to make way for more Keaton Batfilms when they realize why all the fanboys will be showing up to this...

[Edited 2/14/23 9:54am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

Call me crazy, but I get the sense that you don't think this is going to be any good

The nostalgia stuff doesn't work on me because I have no particularly great love for any version of Batman but I think this looks like a decent movie. Even if Keaton wasn't in it, I'm intrigued by DC's take on that No Way Home story. General Zod is back from Man Of Steel too and I thought he was one of the best things about that movie. Supergirl looks great too. Am I expecting this movie to be amazing? Absolutely not. But like I said earlier in the thread, a superhero movie need only he entertaining for me to consider it worth my time and this looks like a good night out at the cinema to me.

If it proves popular with the fans of the old Batman movies and DC decide to capitalise on that, then I don't see that as a bad thing either. It's just more options. The old fans will have that, the younger fans will have the Brave And The Bold movie to look forward to and the "edgy" teen crowd will have more Pattinson movies. Everyone wins. I mean sure, having 3 separate Batman franchises on the go at the same time could get confusing and would prove once and for all that Hollywood has truly run out of any creative ideas, but if it keeps fans entertained then I'd argue that WB would be doing a better job doing that than they have for the past 15 years or so.

ShellyMcG said:

Call me crazy, but I get the sense that you don't think this is going to be any good The nostalgia stuff doesn't work on me because I have no particularly great love for any version of Batman but I think this looks like a decent movie. Even if Keaton wasn't in it, I'm intrigued by DC's take on that No Way Home story. General Zod is back from Man Of Steel too and I thought he was one of the best things about that movie. Supergirl looks great too. Am I expecting this movie to be amazing? Absolutely not. But like I said earlier in the thread, a superhero movie need only he entertaining for me to consider it worth my time and this looks like a good night out at the cinema to me. If it proves popular with the fans of the old Batman movies and DC decide to capitalise on that, then I don't see that as a bad thing either. It's just more options. The old fans will have that, the younger fans will have the Brave And The Bold movie to look forward to and the "edgy" teen crowd will have more Pattinson movies. Everyone wins. I mean sure, having 3 separate Batman franchises on the go at the same time could get confusing and would prove once and for all that Hollywood has truly run out of any creative ideas, but if it keeps fans entertained then I'd argue that WB would be doing a better job doing that than they have for the past 15 years or so.

eh again it's like pro wrestling to me.

Keeping the fans that will support the product no matter what "entertained" is an extremely low bar to aspire to. They should be seeking to entertain and grasp people that aren't already DC nuts and Batman nerds or people who see every comic book movie released regardless. You know, movies for everyone, or as they used to be called: movies.

This is again why the Nolan and Shyamalan superhero films are just inherently superior, their stories appeal to people who just like plain good movies with good story, not people who's theater experience is positively correlated with amount of muscleheads on the screen flying around in their underoos.

And given these studios ultimately want everyone's $ they need to quit reaching for the low-hanging fruit and present something everyone can enjoy. This is why Flashpoint will do better than other recent DC projects, it's at least got something to appeal to the lapsed fan. And that's easy, reaching everyone else is far more difficult.

[Edited 2/14/23 13:36pm]

oh and

ShellyMcG said:

I'm intrigued by DC's take on that No Way Home story.

It's actually the Into the Spider-Verse story, have you seen that one? One of the better more-recent'er superhero movies not mentioned in this thread yet. No Way Home was like the Wal-Mart food court version of that movie. Into the Spider-Verse is definitely the best Spider-Man movie so far anyway, great characters.

Supposedly the best rendition of that kind of story is the 2022 film Everything Everywhere All at Once, but I've only seen snippets... looks pretty lit.

[Edited 2/14/23 14:19pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

That's just it though. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not a DC nut or a Batman nerd. Far from it. I've seen less than half of the MCU movies and only like 3 of the DCEU movies. And even then, I didn't watch most of those by choice. But I will likely go see The Flash. Not because Michael Keaton is in it and definitely not because I'm already invested in the overarching DCEU story, if there is one. I just think it looks like a fun movie. It will probably end up being terrible but the trailer has convinced me to give it a go.

WhisperingDandelions said:

I haven't seen that, no. I don't really watch a lot of animated movies.

But I will say that Everything Everywhere All At Once is absolutely fantastic. I'd recommend it.

ShellyMcG said:

I haven't seen that, no. I don't really watch a lot of animated movies.

I don't really watch animated movies either, but it's truly a cut-above. I only watched it because everyone was over-hyping it and I just wanted to tell them their lame cartoon sucks with authority. But it really doesn't suck, easily best Spidey film no contest, great storytelling. It's great immediately out the gate, too, very little wiggle room for disappointment. A lot of Miles Morales original character traits were repurposed for the Tom Holland version of Spider-Man as well.

The emotional stakes feel larger than your usual animated fare, too. Larger than your usual superhero movie even. It's a movie/film first and foremost. It just happens to be animated.


Brenden Fraser talked to Howard Stern about the Batgirl movie, said it was great. He was the main villain. Hyped the directors use of practical effects, CGI so lame. Dude seems proud of this film. link.

[Edited 2/14/23 15:38pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

That...is certainly a reason to watch a movie .

Brendan Fraser seems like a nice guy. Always comes across well in interviews and such. I think I've only seen two of his movies though. The first of his Mummy films and George Of The Jungle. I can't say I was particularly looking forward to Batgirl though so it's cancellation doesn't really mean anything to me. It's interesting to hear that he liked it though because everything I've read about the movie suggested that it was a complete disaster, which is why WB cancelled it. And if it's so bad that even WB, the studio behind some of the worst movies ever, cancelled it then I can only assume it must have been really bad. Although, in a perverse kind of way, that only makes me want to see it

WhisperingDandelions said:

Younger gen underrates/overlooks just what a pure phenom Batman 89 was. It's literally the bigbang moment of nerd culture as it exists today. That generation ate, drank and slept that yellow and black Bat symbol, and they will show up in droves with their kids and grandkids to witness the Return of their Batman.

DC's characters became "cool" again thanks to the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" reboot, followed by John Byrne's "Man of Steel". Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" & "Batman:Year One", and George Perez terrific work on Wonder Woman & Teen Titans. Batman '89 was a continuation of that. Finally, a movie which took the character seriously, and Tim Burton's vision of Gotham was spot-on.

But in typical WB fashion, they let The Ass Known as Joel Schumacher nearly kill the franchise with those two awful films. Thank goodness Nolan & Bale brought The Dark Knight back to greatness. And surprisingly (for me), Affleck outdid Bale & Keaton. It's Frank Miller's version come to life.

ShellyMcG said:

And if it's so bad that even WB, the studio behind some of the worst movies ever, cancelled it then I can only assume it must have been really bad. Although, in a perverse kind of way, that only makes me want to see it

yeah, I don't buy their propaganda specifically because of this quoted context.

The studio responsible for so many shitty movies with even more on the way suddenly gets a conscience of quality control? It doesn't add up.

There's a theory on some DC forums that it was cancelled as a pre-emptive tax write-off measure to recoup expected losses from The Rock's Black Adam. Some good ole fashioned corporate fuzzy math seems like much more likely of an explanation, because when in the history of superhero movies have these companies ever cared about putting out an inferior or subpar product

uPtoWnNY said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Younger gen underrates/overlooks just what a pure phenom Batman 89 was. It's literally the bigbang moment of nerd culture as it exists today. That generation ate, drank and slept that yellow and black Bat symbol, and they will show up in droves with their kids and grandkids to witness the Return of their Batman.

DC's characters became "cool" again thanks to the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" reboot, followed by John Byrne's "Man of Steel". Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" & "Batman:Year One", and George Perez terrific work on Wonder Woman & Teen Titans. Batman '89 was a continuation of that. Finally, a movie which took the character seriously, and Tim Burton's vision of Gotham was spot-on.

But in typical WB fashion, they let The Ass Known as Joel Schumacher nearly kill the franchise with those two awful films. Thank goodness Nolan & Bale brought The Dark Knight back to greatness. And surprisingly (for me), Affleck outdid Bale & Keaton. It's Frank Miller's version come to life.

yeah. Before while comics were certainly on the rise among the comics community, Batman '89 made it tangible to joe and jane six pack who had never picked up a comic book, the spearhead to the modern comic movie nerd who honestly most of them don't ever read comics despite devoiting hours upon hours watching every comic movie.

And to be fair, all of the modern depictions of Batman since Batman '89 have had some influence from Dark Knight Returns to varying degrees. The Dark Knight Rises was especially blatant in the first act being influenced by Dark Knight Returns, so, while it might perhaps be more purely manifested in the Batfleck depiction it's was kind of in rerun/recycle territory by that point.

Miller also did Year One as you mentioned which is why Batman Begins is the best one for me.

Personally, maybe it's a generational thing, but my favorite Frank Miller Batman is always going to be All-Star Batman & Robin, which even the Miller nerds usually scoff at and tell me that's too far, too Frank Miller even for them. That's the Miller story I'd flip out for seeing adapted to the big screen for once.

Batman abducting the boy wonder in the middle of the night and telling him to eat rats in the bat cave if he's hungry is perhaps a little too dark for even the most ardent fans of the Miller's Dark Knight, but it felt realistic. Dude's basically a basket case tramautized by his parents death, no chance in hell he'd be a competent mentor to another trauamtized youth, at least not fresh out the gate.

I'm also upset we never got Batman flying to Afghanistan and punching out Bin Laden like Frank Miller drafted. Full Frank Miller is the best Frank Miller.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Honestly, that sounds more likely. This is the same company responsible for Superman 4, Batman & Robin, Supergirl (sorry Em, but it's crap) and The Justice League. Batgirl was probably going to be really bad but I don't think that's the reason they cancelled it.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Batman abducting the boy wonder in the middle of the night and telling him to eat rats in the bat cave if he's hungry is perhaps a little too dark for even the most ardent fans of the Miller's Dark Knight, but it felt realistic. Dude's basically a basket case tramautized by his parents death, no chance in hell he'd be a competent mentor to another trauamtized youth, at least not fresh out the gate.

Rachel said it best at the end of Batman Begins....Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is the real person. Wayne died the night he lost his parents.

I never read 'Holy Terror", but Miller seems to have regrets about the book.