It's wayyyyy too many reboots/alternate"cinematic universe"s. The uber-nerds with their great wall of Funko Pops "get it," the other portion of society without a walk-in closet full of Batman shirts see this as unabashed, unadulterated insanity... The film version of a Kanye twitter rant. DC is a mess.

[Edited 1/31/23 17:05pm]

Another reboot??? Give it up already, the DCEU is dead, thanks to the clowns at WB. They had everything set up perfectly with "Man of Steel" (my favorite Supes film). But they got greedy and tried to squeeze their entire universe in two films.

I hate what Disney's done to Marvel, but their cinematic universe was set up the right way.

Wait.

At the end of 'Black Adam', there was a post credit scene where Superman (Henry C) confronts Black Adam (The Rock) leading the public to believe in a certain storyline.

Now, Henry will no longer play the roll of Superman, then a new Auquaman movie is coming, a new Flash series will be released (where's THAT movie (with supposed multiverse Batmans)???).

Also, a sequel to the totally unrelated 'Joker'.

.

What?

nayroo2002 said:

ShellyMcG said:

nayroo2002 said:

Wait.

At the end of 'Black Adam', there was a post credit scene where Superman (Henry C) confronts Black Adam (The Rock) leading the public to believe in a certain storyline.

Now, Henry will no longer play the roll of Superman, then a new Auquaman movie is coming, a new Flash series will be released (where's THAT movie (with supposed multiverse Batmans)???).

Also, a sequel to the totally unrelated 'Joker'.

.

What?

This is the problem. The whole thing is too confusing. Best to just start again from scratch. Apparently The Batman and Joker are separate and will not be a part of the new DCU. And from what I was reading, something happens in The Flash movie that causes the "reset".

Yes, this apparently why WB keeps The Flash movie on the schedule despite Ezra Miller's controversies, because the storyline crux of their whole company-wide reboot is in The Flash movie.

But this whole "reboot" still requires audiences to keep up with like two additional cinematic universes to even process the reboot.

And then you still got stuff outside the universe like The Batman and Joker film universes that aren't going to reboot.

So.. then, It's not really a full DC reboot if you still gotta hypothetically keep track of 3 movie universes at once, is it? It's obscene is what it is. It's obnoxious. Comic nerds want movie buffs to respect their art, how 'bout respecting the art of movies for once, because the movie industry was for the better before this spazzy spam multiverse retcon reboot-of-the-week shit took over. That nonsense was best left to the comic book pages.

uPtoWnNY said:

Another reboot??? Give it up already, the DCEU is dead, thanks to the clowns at WB. They had everything set up perfectly with "Man of Steel" (my favorite Supes film). But they got greedy and tried to squeeze their entire universe in two films.

I hate what Disney's done to Marvel, but their cinematic universe was set up the right way.

I liked Man of Steel a lot, but that awful Batman V. Superman movie kinda exposed that their concept for Superman was basically Batman-lite. Dueling traumatized brooding the whole movie. Their entire take was wrong from the outset.

ShellyMcG said:

I can't comment on the MCU because I've only seen like 10 Marvel movies but the ones I've seen are way above any of the DCEU movies I've seen.

lol how many MCU movies are there? Can't comment because you've only seen 10 Marvel movies? This would've been like a parody headline from The Onion 10-15 years ago.

Based on like 5-6 Marvel movies they seem very formuliac. They seem to range from not great to okay to that was aiight, it was... good, but yeah, compared to the trash DC puts out every year, it makes sense why modern gen sees them as this gold standard... because compared to DC...

It's sad because based on the incredible wealth of source material between both comic book titans they should both be better, and pushing each other to be better, but MCU has no reason to do anything but stick to the formula on autopilot while DCU tries to figure out how to xerox the formula.

[Edited 2/2/23 4:15am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

ShellyMcG said:

I agree but these superhero movies are probably the only thing keeping cinemas in business at this stage so they do serve their purpose beyond pure entertainment value.

That's actually a valid point.

If cinemas make it past the Superhero clusterF era of film history then comic book movies will deserve their flowers.

ShellyMcG said:

According to Wikipedia, there are 30 MCU movies. The new Ant Man will be number 31. There are also several TV shows too. Just looking at all the movies listed on Wikipedia, I think I've actually seen more than I thought. I think I may have seen as many as 15 or 16. That last Thor movie is probably the only one I've seen that I really disliked. So that's not a bad record, I suppose. [Edited 2/2/23 5:59am]

So many movies, my word.

Marvel Cinematic Universe is not egregiously unlikeable, they're just never anything "new".

Take Unbreakable, there was an example of a superhero movie raising the bar from what had come prior. Then the Nolan Batman Begins movies raised the bar again. The Arrow TV show raised the bar for episodic TV adaptations, etc.

That hammy candy-coated comedic tone they crowbar into every Marvel movie is borderline dislikable, though. Worst part of Marvel. These stories are srs business, people. Also the requisite 25-35 minute over-the-top Dragonball Z-esque battle-for-all hyper-climaxes.

Dredd was another good comic book movie for that reason. It was the rare adaptation that actually ran like an issue of an actual comic book and not a grandiose graphic novel.

[Edited 2/2/23 6:13am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

ShellyMcG said:

*I don't count Christopher Reeve as an actor playing Superman. As far as I'm concerned, he is the real Superman.

It is you, Emma, innit???

nayroo2002 said:

ShellyMcG said:

I've only seen Man Of Steel once but that was years ago and I can barely remember it. I think I liked it. I haven't seen most of the DCEU movies and I think that's the problem. I haven't been following it too closely but it seems like the fanbase is completely fractured. Take Superman, for example. You say Man Of Steel is your favourite Superman movie and I've heard a lot of people agree with that. But I've also heard people say that they absolutely hate that movie and prefer the old Christopher Reeve movies. Then you have the confusion over what the actual plot of the DCEU was supposed to be, two Justice League movies which were both shit and contradict some of the movies that followed and the trouble that went on behind the scenes. I know I was only half following the DCEU to begin with but the whole thing is messy and confusing. There's no way they could continue with that. So I actually think the best thing they could do is just reboot the whole thing and start fresh. I can't comment on the MCU because I've only seen like 10 Marvel movies but the ones I've seen are way above any of the DCEU movies I've seen. And I know that most Marvel fans seem to be pretty happy with how they've built their movie universe. So if DC can do what Marvel did, then I don't see a downside. Especially because the new DCU will incorporate video games too, which the Marvel stuff is really lacking.

I loved 'Man of Steel'....it was the first Superman movie I wasn't bored with (no disrespect to Mr. Reeve, but those films were corny asf). You actually see Clark/Kal learning how to fly/how to be 'Superman', great villians (a malevolent Zod) and great battle scenes (the 'Battle of Smallville'). I liked the depicition of Krypton as a dark, dying civilization. 'Man of Steel' made Superman interesting.

For me, the best part of BvS was, Ben Affleck. I had big-time reservations about him playing the character, but he's my favorite Batman (ahead of Bale & Keaton). His version reminds me of Frank Miller's Dark Knight, which I'm a big fan of. The warehouse scene I could watch over and over....an older, angry, pissed-off Batman (probably over Robin's death at the hands of the Joker), taking down punks and showing no mercy.

ShellyMcG said:

But at the end of the day, these are movies about superheroes. We're not talking about high art here.

I really could not disagree with this sentiment more. But it truly speaks to the abysmal quality of contemporary superhero films in general that someone like you, someone who seems to actually enjoy superhero movies (to the extent where you've sat through like 35 hours+ worth of Marvel movies), scoffs at the notion of them being high art.

A bunch of the films I referenced in my previous post are absolutely high art. Unbreakable is incredible. The Nolan Bat movies were quality adult Law & Order-esque tinged psychological dramas even my grandpa could appreciate. Dredd is great. X2 is underrated/kinda forgotten, but has some fantastic deep, human themes that get diluted in the borderline tinker-toys vibe of the other X-Men movies (though Logan was also quality).

And I'm not beholden to "serious" tone, either. Honestly, DC's horrific takes seem to have soured a lot of the public on the idea of "dark" and "serious" tones to superhero movies, but that's more a testament to their shitty writer/directors like Zach Schnyder. People have been consuming and enjoying deep dramas for decades. The dramatic take itself isn't bad, the DC films themselves are.

Blankman I also rank highly as a superhero film even though it's a comedy first and foremost, because the characters have real-world emotions and connections like the grandma getting gunned down or the relationship between siblings. That movie is art and it's funnier than all the cheesy Marvel one-liners put together. Meteor Man also has humor and is somewhat a parody/riff on Reeves' Superman movies, but it also has a lot of heart and likewise is art. And Kick-Ass might be the best example of an equal parts comedy/drama hybrid.

I also consider Matilda to be a great superhero movie, and the fact that people don't even consider that part of the genre shows how in-the-box the general public conceptualizes these movies when they have the potential to be everything and anything. Bridging on that concept, Brightburn, the first superhero horror film/slasher, was also pretty damn solid/unique.


The source material of superhero films are absolutely high art. I've got more emotion reading Marvel comic books than I have virtually any Marvel movie. Spectacular Spider-Man Issue #200 will still make me cry in the closing panels after Harry dies after swooping in to save Peter. Or the 9/11 Spider-Man issue if you want something slightly more contemporary. And any random issue of Deadpool written by Joe Kelly is still genuinely funnier than all the Deadpool movies combined (big ups to Deadpool #11, one of the funniest comic book issues ever written outside of Jhonen Vasquez).

I compare it to pro wrestling, another art form people scoff at justifiably, because so much of its history is cheesy B.S. But there were 2-3 years where it was the pinnacle of high art and offerred everything from romance to horror to action to comedy in a 2-hour timeslot.

Just because the majority of creators involved have squandered potential doesn't mean these genres had no potential to begin with.

[Edited 2/3/23 1:07am]

[Edited 2/3/23 1:19am]

uPtoWnNY said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

ShellyMcG said:

I don't mean any disrespect to Superhero movies or their fans. I'm a fan of superhero movies myself. Hence, why I started this thread. But I don't consider them, any of them, on the same level as the likes of The Godfather or movies like that. For me, there are two kinds of movies.

Yeah I know you like superhero movies, I integrated that in the post. It's why it's sad you believe they don't have the ability to be high art. It shows their standards for making them are so bottom-barrel low that even their fans think they're silly fluff and could never be anything more... "Theme parks" or whatever Scorsese called them.

The Dark Knight & Rises is the usual theme park excess if you don't watch Batman Begins first. All the psychological drama is set in that film. Maybe the best superhero origin movie ever, that and Unbreakable.

Anyway, your Spielberg examples, I get what you mean. It's when people debate the concept of a "film" vs. a "movie". I'd argue they can be both, though. The 1st Back to the Future for instance... Batman Begins might be the best example. It speaks to humanity and life, but there's still lots of explosions and a dude dressed up in a cool suit smacking around bad guys.

The first 3 seasons of the Arrow TV show were similar in dramatic tone. Did you see that?

The Godfather's awful, though. Too many characters, it's like an overstuffed book adaptation. No movie or film should ever be that boring.

and Wrestling's been the worst form of entertainment for the past 23-24 years now, I'm not talking about modern WWE/AEW whatever, that stuff's unwatchable... Lucha Underground was cool, that showed wrestling's potential.

A good example of an acclaimed romantic storyline in wrestling is the Macho Man / Elizabeth angle from the 80s. YouTube doesn't have great highlights, you can probably find an article. Here's when they reunited and even the nerds in the audiences cried. Lucha Underground had some storylines, some creeper obsessed fan wrestler creepin' on the female announcer, had another wrestler come in and help her fight back.

[Edited 2/3/23 4:26am]

[Edited 2/3/23 4:35am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

ShellyMcG said:

You could be right. The standard of most superhero movies is quite low, artistically speaking, so it's possible that there are superhero movies out there or yet to be made that could change my opinion on them. I've never seen Arrow or Unbreakable. Honestly, I don't think I've ever even heard of Unbreakable. I know what Arrow is though, I just haven't watched it. Out of curiosity, what is your favourite superhero movie of all time?

lol, probably Batman Begins or Unbreakable.

And my fav superhero TV show is the first 3 seasons of Arrow, although the Netflix Daredevil TV show from a couple years back looked damn promising too.

I'd try Batman Begins first, if you dig it, give a couple episodes of Arrow a whirl, If you decide this is a tone/style you kinda dig, then you'll be ready for Unbreakable. That one can be polarizing. I tried showing it to my kid brother when he was in full Iron Man / Spider-Man OD phase and he was like "this is just terrible." You gotta acclimate yourself to a more srs dramatic take on heroes first. Kid brother claims to like it now as an adult, though. M. Night Shyamalan's greatest moment.

[Edited 2/3/23 4:53am]

Wasn't 'Unbreakable' amidst a trilogy?

Sam Jackson, Bruce Willis and that other guy playing a multi-personality?

Then, they were all brought together in a final film?

I'd rather WD explain it than me looking it up!

[Edited 2/3/23 13:03pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

ShellyMcG said:

uPtoWnNY said:

I loved 'Man of Steel'....it was the first Superman movie I wasn't bored with (no disrespect to Mr. Reeve, but those films were corny asf). You actually see Clark/Kal learning how to fly/how to be 'Superman', great villians (a malevolent Zod) and great battle scenes (the 'Battle of Smallville'). I liked the depicition of Krypton as a dark, dying civilization. 'Man of Steel' made Superman interesting.

For me, the best part of BvS was, Ben Affleck. I had big-time reservations about him playing the character, but he's my favorite Batman (ahead of Bale & Keaton). His version reminds me of Frank Miller's Dark Knight, which I'm a big fan of. The warehouse scene I could watch over and over....an older, angry, pissed-off Batman (probably over Robin's death at the hands of the Joker), taking down punks and showing no mercy.

I remember liking Man Of Steel when I went to see it but I remember very little about it. The big battle scene between Superman and Zod sticks out in my mind though but that's only because I completely tuned out during it. It felt like watching a young boy play with his action figures. The action scenes all felt a little off to me. The cast was great though and I'd have liked to see a proper sequel. BVS was not my kind of thing at all though. My cousin still raves about the director's cut to this day and how Ben Affleck was great and all the rest of it. But nah, I just didn't like it. They turned Zod into some sort of awful CGI zombie without really explaining how or why. It was stupid. And then Wonder Woman shows up out of nowhere. The fight scene in the warehouse was pretty bad ass though, I can't lie.

Like I said, that was the closest to Frank Miller's Batman...the Dark Knight at his most brutal.

I thought the fight scenes in MoS were the best in any superhero film (DC or Marvel). Superman is actually overmatched against Zod, Faora & Nam-Ek, who are military-trained battle-tested warriors. Supes is learning on the job. His advantage is having greater control over his powers from spending years on Earth. Fans complained about the mass destruction....well, that's what happens when gods collide. It happened in the comics when Supes fought Doomsday.

The smartest thing for WB to do was Man of Steel 2, then a stand-alone Batman film, Wonder Woman film, Flash film, then Justice League.

uPtoWnNY said:

ShellyMcG said:

Hey, Uptowny, a quick question. You referred to the old Superman movies as "corny" and I can see where you're coming from with that assessment. But when was the last time you saw them? I've always heard it said that those movies were really cheesy and light-hearted and stuff. But they definitely have their darker moments. I've never seen Superman 4 and I have only seen Superman 3 (the one with Richard Pryor?) once, and I only remember the bit with Richard Pryor on skis. But those first two movies got quite serious at times. Lois Lane gets killed, violently, causing Superman to go against his father's teachings and reverse time or something. I've never been entirely sure of what was happening in that scene. But then you also have Zod and his gang wreaking havoc after Superman gave up his powers. Christopher Reeve was particularly good at showing his vulnerability during those "powerless" scenes.

I couldn't take all the silly 'magic tricks' (making the world go backwards, flinging his S-shield, kissing Lois to make her forget his identity, etc). And wanting to give up his godlike powers and live as a mortal was bad writing, IMO. At least S1 & S2(Donner cut) are watchable. S3 & S4 are beyond woeful. They remind me of the Schumacher's Batman films.

Growing up, I was a bigger fan of Marvel Comics than DC. They had cooler characters, better stories and more diversity. But I prefer the darker tone of the DC films. If they had set up their universe the right way, they'd be kicking Marvel's ass.

As for the MCU, I was done after Endgame, thanks to the idiots at Disney.

At least WB did their Monsterverse the right way.

uPtoWnNY said:

The only good thing about "Batman Forever" is that it's better than "Batman & Robin" (aka "Batman on Ice").