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Reply #30 posted 05/21/20 3:08pm

namepeace

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:


A lot of truth to this. Many of these types of fans will NEVER be satisfied and their expectations never fully met. For many of them that includes seeing people of color in significant roles, but that's not unique to these types of filmgoers.

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #31 posted 05/21/20 3:13pm

kpowers

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EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:


A lot of truth to this. Many of these types of fans will NEVER be satisfied and their expectations never fully met. For many of them that includes seeing people of color in significant roles, but that's not unique to these types of filmgoers.

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

What??? How can you forget (lord I do)

Steel (1997): Ended Shaq's Leading Man Days In Hollywood | Bomb report

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Reply #32 posted 05/21/20 3:31pm

sexton

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namepeace said:

EmmaMcG said:

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.


I would be very surprised if DC or Marvel changed the race or gender of the titular character to one of their superhero films. Supporting characters though like the aforementioned Perry White and Harvey Dent--or over at Marvel, Baron Mordo and Heimdall--are fair game. As is Green Lantern since there have been many different ones in the books. And I know you knew that.


[Edited 5/21/20 17:07pm]

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Reply #33 posted 05/21/20 3:57pm

v10letblues

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Itโ€™s not even about changing anyoneโ€™s race or gender, the loudest voices in the fan base are hyper toxic.
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Reply #34 posted 05/21/20 4:42pm

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

To be honest, there are only 2 Batman movies that I really like and those were the 2 Michael Keaton movies. They were perfect combinations of actor/director/villain/tone. Gotham City looked the way it should. The Batmobile was stylish but also practical. Bruce Wayne actually had a reason to be Batman in that even though he was a great fighter, simply being a great fighter wouldn't be enough to take on the city's criminals. He needed the added theatricality because if he didn't have that, he wouldn't have lasted very long. Other portrayals of the character have him as too overpowered. Michael Keaton brought that vulnerability to it. Then there was Alfred. The Tim Burton Alfred behaved as a butler should but we also seen subtle moments where he acted like a parent to Bruce. It was subtle. More nuanced. But it was there. After that we've had some truly awful Batman movies. Val Kilmer is a great actor and could have been a good Batman but Joel Schumacher made sure he killed any hopes of that. And the less said about Batman & Robin, the better. The Nolan movies started off well with Batman Begins but went downhill fast. The Dark Knight was ok but Heath Ledger's impression of a young Tom Waits didn't do it for me. The movie was kind of boring at times too. And then The Dark Knight Rises was just fucking stupid. And the Batmobile was a travesty. Ben Affleck seemed like the perfect choice. He had the look, the costume, the willingness to kill which at this point in his career as Batman, made total sense. Unfortunately Warner Bros did what the always do and fucked it up. The did it with Donner's Superman. They did it with Burton's Batman and the did it with Snyder's Justice League. Now we have Pattinson, who is a decent actor. And it wouldn't be fair to judge him on the Twilight movies, awful and all as they are. But he doesn't have the look. And I don't think he's got the range of Michael Keaton nor does Matt Reeves have the ability of late 80's Tim Burton, for it to all come together. Hopefully I'm wrong. I want to like this movie. But there's not one member of the cast who gives me any hope. In fact, quite the opposite. Colin Farrell as the penguin? Seriously? Like I said, hopefully it's good. But at the moment, this isn't even on my radar.

yeahthat Great post.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #35 posted 05/21/20 11:29pm

JorisE73

MickyDolenz said:

https://i.postimg.cc/SNjBGdPD/image.jpg

HBO Max will debut the project in 2021 โ€” possibly in a four-hour director's cut or in six TV-style "chapters" โ€” as the helmer gets the gang back together with the original postproduction crew to score, cut and finish visual effects. ~ The Hollywood Reporter


That is awesome news!

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Reply #36 posted 05/22/20 1:53am

EmmaMcG

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namepeace said:



EmmaMcG said:


namepeace said:



A lot of truth to this. Many of these types of fans will NEVER be satisfied and their expectations never fully met. For many of them that includes seeing people of color in significant roles, but that's not unique to these types of filmgoers.



Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?




I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.



Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there ๐Ÿ˜‚.

Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job.

It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black.

Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.
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Reply #37 posted 05/22/20 4:55am

JorisE73

EmmaMcG said:

Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.


True.
There are soime exceptions tho reagrding getting the best actor for a role.
For example Robert de Niro didn't get the part of Sonny Corleone in The Godfather simply because he was too good and would have blown away everyone at every scene that's why they went with James Caan who wasn't as strong an actor and so Al Pacino wouldn't be snowed under.
This choice was completely in service of the movie.

[Edited 5/22/20 4:55am]

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Reply #38 posted 05/22/20 5:05am

EmmaMcG

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JorisE73 said:



EmmaMcG said:


Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.


True.
There are soime exceptions tho reagrding getting the best actor for a role.
For example Robert de Niro didn't get the part of Sonny Corleone in The Godfather simply because he was too good and would have blown away everyone at every scene that's why they went with James Caan who wasn't as strong an actor and so Al Pacino wouldn't be snowed under.
This choice was completely in service of the movie.

[Edited 5/22/20 4:55am]



And it worked out well having DeNiro available for Part 2
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Reply #39 posted 05/22/20 9:27am

kpowers

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there ๐Ÿ˜‚. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it. If we are going to hire the best actors for the roles then goodbye Gal Gadot and hello Meryl Streep as Wonder Woman lol . I won't watch Aquaman because I don't buy Jason Momoa in the role, and yes I have Hawaiian blood in me. I'm always for making new characters. Why not make a Hawaiian super hero? Or even bring to the big screen other characters such as Black lightining, Vixen, Vibe, Dr. Light (Kimiyo Hoshi) Mr. Terrific, Rocket & Icon and so on. Hated all the changes on the new Battlestar Galactica. I think you over praise Laurence Fishbourne in the role of Perry White, it's not shakespeare. But 95% of the time I agree with you highfive


[Edited 5/22/20 9:48am]

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Reply #40 posted 05/22/20 9:42am

namepeace

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there ๐Ÿ˜‚. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.



Those are valid points. Especially with SW fans!

For me, Jackie Cooper and Laurence Fishburne were equally good in their portrayals of Perry White. Because they filled the needs of the role within the context for the movie.

For certain characters, however, casting a black character in the titular role may add a different layer to the story. For example, Man of Steel focused a lot on Kal-El's misfit status as an alien. Imagine a well-cast black actor trying to deal with all of that, as a young black male. Same with Bond. Point is, it would have to make sense in the context of the script.


Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #41 posted 05/22/20 12:44pm

MickyDolenz

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kpowers said:

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it.

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times. razz

https://66.media.tumblr.com/ad279dc8b6196ce83b01dae8177c9ac8/ad3f45959e164ea1-32/s540x810/4e9a85082a82b8d4dca5aa809ae051b50a85eacb.jpg

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #42 posted 05/22/20 1:15pm

purplethunder3
121

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MickyDolenz said:

kpowers said:

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it.

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times. razz

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #43 posted 05/22/20 2:56pm

EmmaMcG

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kpowers said:



EmmaMcG said:


namepeace said:





I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.



Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there ๐Ÿ˜‚. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it. If we are going to hire the best actors for the roles then goodbye Gal Gadot and hello Meryl Streep as Wonder Woman lol . I won't watch Aquaman because I don't buy Jason Momoa in the role, and yes I have Hawaiian blood in me. I'm always for making new characters. Why not make a Hawaiian super hero? Or even bring to the big screen other characters such as Black lightining, Vixen, Vibe, Dr. Light (Kimiyo Hoshi) Mr. Terrific, Rocket & Icon and so on. Hated all the changes on the new Battlestar Galactica. I think you over praise Laurence Fishbourne in the role of Perry White, it's not shakespeare. But 95% of the time I agree with you highfive





[Edited 5/22/20 9:48am]




Perhaps I should have been clearer with my meaning. The best actor for the role should get the job. That may not mean the best actor. Just the one who is better at playing the role in question.


As good as Meryl Streep is, there is no way she is better suited to Wonder Woman than Gal Gadot. Determining who is better for a role is not the same as saying who is the better actor. I mean, I'm 100% certain that actresses better than myself were overlooked when I played Janet in The Rocky Horror Show. It just so happened that I was better suited to that role. I could audition against the same group of women for another part and I probably wouldn't stand a chance because I wouldn't be able to play that other part as good as they could. Like, Meryl Streep is a "better" actress but she's no Wonder Woman. Al Pacino is a far better actor than Christopher Reeve but he wouldn't be convincing as Superman. No matter how good of an actor he is.


As for Aquaman, I really enjoyed that movie. It reminded me of the kind of silly action movies I grew up on. Only with more CGI and less Stallone. But enjoyable nevertheless. A young Dolph Lundgren might have been better than Jason Momoa but he's too old to be convincing and I can't think of any other actor who could have played that part as well as Momoa.
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Reply #44 posted 05/22/20 3:09pm

EmmaMcG

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namepeace said:



EmmaMcG said:


namepeace said:





I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" lol And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.



Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there ๐Ÿ˜‚. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.



Those are valid points. Especially with SW fans!

For me, Jackie Cooper and Laurence Fishburne were equally good in their portrayals of Perry White. Because they filled the needs of the role within the context for the movie.

For certain characters, however, casting a black character in the titular role may add a different layer to the story. For example, Man of Steel focused a lot on Kal-El's misfit status as an alien. Imagine a well-cast black actor trying to deal with all of that, as a young black male. Same with Bond. Point is, it would have to make sense in the context of the script.




Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make.

James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.
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Reply #45 posted 05/22/20 3:22pm

EmmaMcG

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Hmm, perhaps I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I don't know. I mean, the only live action version of Batman I really like is Michael Keaton and that's mainly because of the changes that were made from the comic book version. Batman is depicted in the comics as this hulking brute capable of almost inhuman levels of face punching. I prefer Michael Keaton because he's the opposite of that. Yes, he could beat up the average Joe but in even one on one fights against the Jokers gang, he struggles. And it's that struggle that forces him to become Batman in the first place. He's not doing it to be some stupid symbol like Christian Bale. He's doing it to scare the shit out of the criminals so that the battle is half won before a punch is thrown. The first scene in the movie sets that premise up perfectly. The two criminals on the rooftop talk about him like he's the boogeyman. So when they see him they're too scared to fight back. I like that element of it. Bruce Wayne isn't much more than a regular guy but his Batman character gives him the edge.

I've spoken to some people who hated Batman 89 because of that. That it was too different to the comics. But that's why I like it.

So who knows, maybe a black Superman would be to someone else what Michael Keaton's Batman is to me. It wouldn't be my cup of tea but to be honest, I'm kind of losing interest in superhero movies outside of the MCU now anyway.
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Reply #46 posted 05/22/20 3:35pm

purplethunder3
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EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:



Those are valid points. Especially with SW fans!

For me, Jackie Cooper and Laurence Fishburne were equally good in their portrayals of Perry White. Because they filled the needs of the role within the context for the movie.

For certain characters, however, casting a black character in the titular role may add a different layer to the story. For example, Man of Steel focused a lot on Kal-El's misfit status as an alien. Imagine a well-cast black actor trying to deal with all of that, as a young black male. Same with Bond. Point is, it would have to make sense in the context of the script.


Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the
Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make. James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.

Got to agree with that point. One example is the American TV version of Sherlock Holmes and Watson. On the show, Holmes' vapid character is unconvincing while the female Watson is so totally unrecognizable as the literary detective's sidekick that she might as well be a different character altogether... confused razz

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #47 posted 05/22/20 5:19pm

kpowers

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MickyDolenz said:



kpowers said:


I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it.



What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times. razz


https://66.media.tumblr.com/ad279dc8b6196ce83b01dae8177c9ac8/ad3f45959e164ea1-32/s540x810/4e9a85082a82b8d4dca5aa809ae051b50a85eacb.jpg


From what I heard the writers changed Nick Fury to be like Samuel L. Jackson, and yeah don't like it. I'm for adding new characters and not replacing them
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Reply #48 posted 05/22/20 7:16pm

kpowers

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purplethunder3121 said:

MickyDolenz said:

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times. razz

Really????????????? Well Dynomite!!!!!!!!!!!

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Reply #49 posted 05/23/20 2:58pm

namepeace

EmmaMcG said:



Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make.


No art is necessary. Neither are remakes for that matter (which seems like a point you've made before too). But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer. It would be interesting to see how Kal-El would be received not only as an alien but as a black child that comes to manhood realizing his true identities and reconciling his different places in the world. You wouldn't even need to make the Kents black either. It would just be a great spin never added to a character before.


James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.

I guess that's my point: none of these characters are truly "established." Michael Keaton's Batman is far different from Val Kilmer's, George Clooney's, Christian Bale's or Ben Affleck's. Same with Reeves' Supes vis-a-vis Henry Cavill's. Connery's Bond and Moore's Bond sparked a civil war between fans of the franchise, and Dalton's and Craig's respective Bonds weren't all that similar, and I'd imagine Elba's color wouldn't be the only thing that separated his Bond from the others, but it would give the franchise a new angle to explore.

We'd both be here for it, regardless. lol

[Edited 5/23/20 14:59pm]

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #50 posted 05/23/20 4:06pm

EmmaMcG

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namepeace said:



EmmaMcG said:







Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make.


No art is necessary. Neither are remakes for that matter (which seems like a point you've made before too). But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer. It would be interesting to see how Kal-El would be received not only as an alien but as a black child that comes to manhood realizing his true identities and reconciling his different places in the world. You wouldn't even need to make the Kents black either. It would just be a great spin never added to a character before.


James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.

I guess that's my point: none of these characters are truly "established." Michael Keaton's Batman is far different from Val Kilmer's, George Clooney's, Christian Bale's or Ben Affleck's. Same with Reeves' Supes vis-a-vis Henry Cavill's. Connery's Bond and Moore's Bond sparked a civil war between fans of the franchise, and Dalton's and Craig's respective Bonds weren't all that similar, and I'd imagine Elba's color wouldn't be the only thing that separated his Bond from the others, but it would give the franchise a new angle to explore.

We'd both be here for it, regardless. lol

[Edited 5/23/20 14:59pm]



I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Always will be.

Bond is a little different. The only James Bond I like is Brosnan. As my husband says, most people's favourite Bond is the one they grew up with and Brosnan fits that bill for me. But I don't have the same feelings for the James Bond character that I do for Superman or Batman. I don't feel as possessive about it. All I require is that whoever plays him is smooth talking, looks good in a tux and doesn't take himself too seriously. Daniel Craig is none of those things. Idris Elba, Chiwitel Ejiofor (that's probably spelled wrong), Ewan McGregor, Michael Fassbender or even getting Brosnan back would be ideal for me. Any of those actors would be fine. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.
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Reply #51 posted 05/23/20 9:24pm

MickyDolenz

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namepeace said:

But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer.

You mean like when Superman split into 2 guys. razz

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maikc1fYlm1r6u65zo1_400.jpg

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
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Reply #52 posted 05/26/20 9:23am

kpowers

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MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer.

You mean like when Superman split into 2 guys. razz

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maikc1fYlm1r6u65zo1_400.jpg

that's just a temp thing

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Reply #53 posted 05/26/20 9:31am

kpowers

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EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

[Edited 5/23/20 14:59pm]

I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian..................................LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

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Reply #54 posted 05/26/20 1:22pm

Lianachan

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EmmaMcG said:

To be honest, there are only 2 Batman movies that I really like and those were the 2 Michael Keaton movies. They were perfect combinations of actor/director/villain/tone. Gotham City looked the way it should. The Batmobile was stylish but also practical. Bruce Wayne actually had a reason to be Batman in that even though he was a great fighter, simply being a great fighter wouldn't be enough to take on the city's criminals. He needed the added theatricality because if he didn't have that, he wouldn't have lasted very long. Other portrayals of the character have him as too overpowered. Michael Keaton brought that vulnerability to it. Then there was Alfred. The Tim Burton Alfred behaved as a butler should but we also seen subtle moments where he acted like a parent to Bruce. It was subtle. More nuanced. But it was there.

After that we've had some truly awful Batman movies. Val Kilmer is a great actor and could have been a good Batman but Joel Schumacher made sure he killed any hopes of that. And the less said about Batman & Robin, the better.

The Nolan movies started off well with Batman Begins but went downhill fast. The Dark Knight was ok but Heath Ledger's impression of a young Tom Waits didn't do it for me. The movie was kind of boring at times too. And then The Dark Knight Rises was just fucking stupid. And the Batmobile was a travesty.

Ben Affleck seemed like the perfect choice. He had the look, the costume, the willingness to kill which at this point in his career as Batman, made total sense. Unfortunately Warner Bros did what the always do and fucked it up. The did it with Donner's Superman. They did it with Burton's Batman and the did it with Snyder's Justice League.

Now we have Pattinson, who is a decent actor. And it wouldn't be fair to judge him on the Twilight movies, awful and all as they are. But he doesn't have the look. And I don't think he's got the range of Michael Keaton nor does Matt Reeves have the ability of late 80's Tim Burton, for it to all come together. Hopefully I'm wrong. I want to like this movie. But there's not one member of the cast who gives me any hope. In fact, quite the opposite. Colin Farrell as the penguin? Seriously? Like I said, hopefully it's good. But at the moment, this isn't even on my radar.


Very much agree with this, apart from just a couple of things. I really liked The Dark Knight, though it was too long and had some stupid bits. I thought Ben Affleck was a terrific Batman, stuck in awful films. A stand alone of the Batman from Batman vs Superman could have been great, but no doubt it would have been fucked up too. Iโ€™m a huge Batman fan (since before the Prince link, even), and currently have no interest whatsoever in the Pattinson film. There canโ€™t be many characters to have faired as badly on the big screen as poor Batman has.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #55 posted 05/27/20 9:37am

namepeace

kpowers said:

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said: I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian..................................LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!


No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead twocents is the GOAT.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #56 posted 05/27/20 12:35pm

EmmaMcG

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namepeace said:



kpowers said:




EmmaMcG said:


namepeace said: I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian.....LOVE IT!!!!!




No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead twocents is the GOAT.



Superman is only my second favourite. Superman 2: The Richard Donner cut is my all time favourite superhero movie.
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Reply #57 posted 05/27/20 1:46pm

Lianachan

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EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:



kpowers said:




EmmaMcG said:


namepeace said: I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian.....LOVE IT!!!!!




No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead twocents is the GOAT.



Superman is only my second favourite. Superman 2: The Richard Donner cut is my all time favourite superhero movie.


Nodding in agreement at that post, too.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #58 posted 05/27/20 1:49pm

DiminutiveRock
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luv4u said:

kpowers said:

Emma and I disapprove


I third that



4th wave I think he has really grown as an actor and makes pretty interesting choices of material.

Misinformation Kills
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Reply #59 posted 05/29/20 3:46pm

Goddess4Real

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EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:


No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead twocents is the GOAT.

Superman is only my second favourite. Superman 2: The Richard Donner cut is my all time favourite superhero movie.

yeahthat

Keep Calm & Listen To Prince
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