EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

A lot of truth to this. Many of these types of fans will NEVER be satisfied and their expectations never fully met. For many of them that includes seeing people of color in significant roles, but that's not unique to these types of filmgoers.

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

A lot of truth to this. Many of these types of fans will NEVER be satisfied and their expectations never fully met. For many of them that includes seeing people of color in significant roles, but that's not unique to these types of filmgoers.

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

What??? How can you forget (lord I do)

namepeace said:

EmmaMcG said:

Well, to be honest, I would like to see a black Superman just as much as I would like to see a white Blade. I have nothing against "people of colour" in prominent roles (in fact, I'd love to see more black and Asian superhero movies) but I also prefer character's ethnicities to not be changed just because the studio want good PR. Besides, why make Batman black when you can just do a Batwing movie. At least that would be something fresh rather than just another Batman movie. There are loads of black superheroes who we've never seen in movies. Instead of going down the lazy route of making established characters black, how about they actually make movies if these characters instead?

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

I would be very surprised if DC or Marvel changed the race or gender of the titular character to one of their superhero films. Supporting characters though like the aforementioned Perry White and Harvey Dent--or over at Marvel, Baron Mordo and Heimdall--are fair game. As is Green Lantern since there have been many different ones in the books. And I know you knew that.

[Edited 5/21/20 17:07pm]

EmmaMcG said:

To be honest, there are only 2 Batman movies that I really like and those were the 2 Michael Keaton movies. They were perfect combinations of actor/director/villain/tone. Gotham City looked the way it should. The Batmobile was stylish but also practical. Bruce Wayne actually had a reason to be Batman in that even though he was a great fighter, simply being a great fighter wouldn't be enough to take on the city's criminals. He needed the added theatricality because if he didn't have that, he wouldn't have lasted very long. Other portrayals of the character have him as too overpowered. Michael Keaton brought that vulnerability to it. Then there was Alfred. The Tim Burton Alfred behaved as a butler should but we also seen subtle moments where he acted like a parent to Bruce. It was subtle. More nuanced. But it was there. After that we've had some truly awful Batman movies. Val Kilmer is a great actor and could have been a good Batman but Joel Schumacher made sure he killed any hopes of that. And the less said about Batman & Robin, the better. The Nolan movies started off well with Batman Begins but went downhill fast. The Dark Knight was ok but Heath Ledger's impression of a young Tom Waits didn't do it for me. The movie was kind of boring at times too. And then The Dark Knight Rises was just fucking stupid. And the Batmobile was a travesty. Ben Affleck seemed like the perfect choice. He had the look, the costume, the willingness to kill which at this point in his career as Batman, made total sense. Unfortunately Warner Bros did what the always do and fucked it up. The did it with Donner's Superman. They did it with Burton's Batman and the did it with Snyder's Justice League. Now we have Pattinson, who is a decent actor. And it wouldn't be fair to judge him on the Twilight movies, awful and all as they are. But he doesn't have the look. And I don't think he's got the range of Michael Keaton nor does Matt Reeves have the ability of late 80's Tim Burton, for it to all come together. Hopefully I'm wrong. I want to like this movie. But there's not one member of the cast who gives me any hope. In fact, quite the opposite. Colin Farrell as the penguin? Seriously? Like I said, hopefully it's good. But at the moment, this isn't even on my radar.

Great post.

MickyDolenz said:

HBO Max will debut the project in 2021 — possibly in a four-hour director's cut or in six TV-style "chapters" — as the helmer gets the gang back together with the original postproduction crew to score, cut and finish visual effects. ~ The Hollywood Reporter

That is awesome news!

namepeace said:

EmmaMcG said:

Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.

True.
There are soime exceptions tho reagrding getting the best actor for a role.
For example Robert de Niro didn't get the part of Sonny Corleone in The Godfather simply because he was too good and would have blown away everyone at every scene that's why they went with James Caan who wasn't as strong an actor and so Al Pacino wouldn't be snowed under.
This choice was completely in service of the movie.

[Edited 5/22/20 4:55am]

JorisE73 said:

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there 😂. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it. If we are going to hire the best actors for the roles then goodbye Gal Gadot and hello Meryl Streep as Wonder Woman . I won't watch Aquaman because I don't buy Jason Momoa in the role, and yes I have Hawaiian blood in me. I'm always for making new characters. Why not make a Hawaiian super hero? Or even bring to the big screen other characters such as Black lightining, Vixen, Vibe, Dr. Light (Kimiyo Hoshi) Mr. Terrific, Rocket & Icon and so on. Hated all the changes on the new Battlestar Galactica. I think you over praise Laurence Fishbourne in the role of Perry White, it's not shakespeare. But 95% of the time I agree with you

[Edited 5/22/20 9:48am]

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and I had the Star Wars sequels on my mind when I posted that.

Finn and Rose were original characters in Star Wars that caught undue hell from fans. Finn in particular got a lot of blowback for simply being a black stormtrooper, and a lot of people online didn't like his place as a central character. Rose got more ire than she deserved. It impacted the direction of the movies that followed. Finn was increasingly marginalized, and Rose was rendered non-existent in the final film.

I think comic films have done a better and better job over the years with inclusiveness. Key characters like Harvey Dent and Perry White were portrayed by black actors. Both DC and Marvel -- especially Marvel -- have acquitted themselves pretty well on that front.

I think representation is key, as it gives more realism to fantasy settings. It's like Richard Pryor remarked after seeing the first Star Wars: "I guess y'all ain't planning on having us around in the future!" And in some cases, casting different races for roles "written white" work -- a black Superman or Bond would be great. But in the post MCU/DCEU era, that's not entirely necessary and would in most cases draw the focus more on the casting than the character

A minority Green Lantern would be cool. I also liked the representation in Shazam.

Star Wars fans have a lot of issues. But let's not go there 😂. Changing the ethnicities of minor characters is fine if the reason you're doing it is because the actor in question is genuinely better at the role than his white (or whatever colour the character was originally written as) counterpart. But if you're only doing it for political or PR reasons then the movie will suffer because you're not doing it for the good of the movie. You're doing it to make yourself look good. Harvey Dent in the Burton Batman movies was ideal. He played the part well and really should have gotten to play Two Face in Batman Forever. Perry White in Man of Steel. Again, he played it better than any other actor could given the material available to him so black or white, Laurence Fishbourne was the right man for the job. It's when there's a studio mandate that says "we want a black actor in this role just because he's black" that I have a problem with. Why go out of your way to hire an actor (of ANY colour) and ignore the possibility that there is a better actor more suited to the role? Idris Elba would make a good James Bond. He's got the look, the acting ability and the personality to be a great James Bond. But what if Ewan McGregor or Michael Fassbender gave a better audition? Would they be turned down on the basis that they're white? That's just as unfair as it was when Billy Dee Williams was turned down for Two Face just because he was black. Basically, the best actor should always be the one cast, regardless of their colour or background.

Those are valid points. Especially with SW fans!

For me, Jackie Cooper and Laurence Fishburne were equally good in their portrayals of Perry White. Because they filled the needs of the role within the context for the movie.

For certain characters, however, casting a black character in the titular role may add a different layer to the story. For example, Man of Steel focused a lot on Kal-El's misfit status as an alien. Imagine a well-cast black actor trying to deal with all of that, as a young black male. Same with Bond. Point is, it would have to make sense in the context of the script.

kpowers said:

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it.

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times.

MickyDolenz said:

kpowers said:

I understand what you are say but I don't agree with it. I think the should cast how the character looks like. I don't want a blonde hair blue eye person playing Superman, can't believe it.

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times.

kpowers said:

namepeace said:

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

Those are valid points. Especially with SW fans!

For me, Jackie Cooper and Laurence Fishburne were equally good in their portrayals of Perry White. Because they filled the needs of the role within the context for the movie.

For certain characters, however, casting a black character in the titular role may add a different layer to the story. For example, Man of Steel focused a lot on Kal-El's misfit status as an alien. Imagine a well-cast black actor trying to deal with all of that, as a young black male. Same with Bond. Point is, it would have to make sense in the context of the script.

Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the

Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make. James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.

Got to agree with that point. One example is the American TV version of Sherlock Holmes and Watson. On the show, Holmes' vapid character is unconvincing while the female Watson is so totally unrecognizable as the literary detective's sidekick that she might as well be a different character altogether...

MickyDolenz said:

purplethunder3121 said:

MickyDolenz said:

What about Nick Fury? His race was changed in the comic books, not just in the MCU. I think Doctor Strange was originally Asian in the comics too. Lois Lane was turned into a black woman in one issue of her comic book. On a related note, there was a white J.J. on an episode of Good Times.

Really????????????? Well Dynomite!!!!!!!!!!!

EmmaMcG said:

Well, when you put it like that, they could write anything and force it to make sense in the context of the script. But would a black Kal El be necessary? Does Superman's backstory need the racial angle on top of everything else? If it just so happened to come naturally to the writer so that in the context of what he was writing that making Superman (and presumably, the Kents) black then I'd be interested to see what that story was. But I'd be very sceptical as to how that kind of character change was made. It seems like a totally unnecessary change to make.


No art is necessary. Neither are remakes for that matter (which seems like a point you've made before too). But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer. It would be interesting to see how Kal-El would be received not only as an alien but as a black child that comes to manhood realizing his true identities and reconciling his different places in the world. You wouldn't even need to make the Kents black either. It would just be a great spin never added to a character before.


James Bond could be black. I could easily buy into that. But Bond should never be a woman. That's another totally unnecessary change to make and if you're going to change the character that much you should probably just create a new character. I'd pay good money to see a movie about a female spy or a black Kryptonian. There's loads of things they could do with those stories without making unnecessary changes to established characters.

I guess that's my point: none of these characters are truly "established." Michael Keaton's Batman is far different from Val Kilmer's, George Clooney's, Christian Bale's or Ben Affleck's. Same with Reeves' Supes vis-a-vis Henry Cavill's. Connery's Bond and Moore's Bond sparked a civil war between fans of the franchise, and Dalton's and Craig's respective Bonds weren't all that similar, and I'd imagine Elba's color wouldn't be the only thing that separated his Bond from the others, but it would give the franchise a new angle to explore.

We'd both be here for it, regardless.

[Edited 5/23/20 14:59pm]

namepeace said:

namepeace said:

But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer.

You mean like when Superman split into 2 guys.

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

But comic book characters are given different characteristics over time, from writer to writer.

You mean like when Superman split into 2 guys.

that's just a temp thing

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

[Edited 5/23/20 14:59pm]

I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian..................................LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

EmmaMcG said:

kpowers said:

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said: I guess I just like what I like, I suppose. Michael Keaton is probably the only live action Batman I'll ever be fully on board with for the reasons I've pointed out earlier. Christopher Reeve is the only live action Superman for me. Dean Cain was good for what was required in that show (plus he used to be sexy as hell) and Brandon Routh gave a decent performance as Reeve's Superman. But in my mind, Keaton is Batman. Reeve is Superman. Casting a black actor as Superman would be the same as casting most white actors for me. I just wouldn't buy into it. Unless it's Christopher Reeve or in Brandon Routh's case, someone doing an impression of Christopher Reeve, I'm not interested. That took a long time for me to figure out but I'm set in my ways. It's Reeve or bust. He IS Superman. Personally, I'd prefer Pierce Brosnan to play a retired Bond forced to return to take on a villain played by Kevin Spacey. That's dream casting for me right there. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Agree Christopher Reeve was the best Superman, though I didn't like how they made him way to nerdy and clumsy as Clark Kent. I know they were going for humour but it wasn't needed in the films since Otis was there for comic relief. Brandon Routh was great in the role too and was a better Clark Kent for sure. Kevin Spacey as a bond villian..................................LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead is the GOAT.

namepeace said:

EmmaMcG said:

luv4u said:

kpowers said:

Emma and I disapprove

I third that

4th I think he has really grown as an actor and makes pretty interesting choices of material.

EmmaMcG said:

namepeace said:

No doubt Reeve is the definitive Superman. When I consider that it laid out the blueprint for comic movies, was very well written, and was very well cast, Superman: The Movie for my oldhead is the GOAT.

Superman is only my second favourite. Superman 2: The Richard Donner cut is my all time favourite superhero movie.