So I am watching "The Last Dance" and scenes come on where Jordan is berating his rookie teammate "Scott Burrell"...calling him a "Ho'....I thought it was disturbing. What was worse was Burell never fought back. So I go online and Tracy McGrady basicly calls it abuse. Michael said he did it to "test and toughen up" his teammates...but Burrell only lasted one season at the bulls.

Then Michael punched Steve Kerr...geesh ...the littlest guy on the team. But at least Steve stood up for himself. Horace Grant has said that if you didn't stand up for yourself Michael would "ride you forever."

What do you guys think..those who saw it.

DonRants said:

DonRants said:

So I am watching "The Last Dance" and scenes come on where Jordan is berating his rookie teammate "Scott Burrell"...calling him a "Ho'....I thought it was disturbing. What was worse was Burell never fought back. So I go online and Tracy McGrady basicly calls it abuse. Michael said he did it to "test and toughen up" his teammates...but Burrell only lasted one season at the bulls.

Then Michael punched Steve Kerr...geesh ...the littlest guy on the team. But at least Steve stood up for himself. Horace Grant has said that if you didn't stand up for yourself Michael would "ride you forever."

What do you guys think..those who saw it.

I haven't seen the series only a few clips, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't think that stuff makes him a bully. It prepped his teammates for playoff intensity. I think that was his goal, it wasn't just for the sake of being mean.

The stuff that does bother me, is him bullying Krause. That stuff served no purpose other than cruelty.

But I have a question about the business side of NBA. Don't championship dynasty teams make more money than other NBA teams? Why were Krause and Reinsdorf so eager to break up the bulls? From what I understand, they were eager to do this even before the 6th championships. I'd think the owner was making a killing off this whole thing.... plus all the attraction that MJ brings, would bring more money to the Bulls right? Where's the downside?

So was the Bulls franchise actually losing money overall? I can't understand as a purely business decision why someone would break up the team. Did Reinsdorf not care about the money?

I haven't seen anyone explain this at all.

noobman said:

RJOrion said:

noobman said:

But I have a question about the business side of NBA. Don't championship dynasty teams make more money than other NBA teams? Why were Krause and Reinsdorf so eager to break up the bulls? From what I understand, they were eager to do this even before the 6th championships. I'd think the owner was making a killing off this whole thing.... plus all the attraction that MJ brings, would bring more money to the Bulls right? Where's the downside?

So was the Bulls franchise actually losing money overall? I can't understand as a purely business decision why someone would break up the team. Did Reinsdorf not care about the money?

I haven't seen anyone explain this at all.

NBA has a salary cap...and what always happens to championship teams ( in every sport except baseball) is their best players obtain more value on the open market due to their success and it becomes hard for winning teams to be able to pay their best players their true market value without going over the salary cap. So they end up being losing some of their core players to teams that have more money available to pay them under the salary cap...Jerry Krause/Jerry Reinsdorf alienated his best players by paying more money to obtain unproven rookie Toni Kukoc from Croatia, than he was paying his best players who were proven 3 time champions

It appears to me that Reinsdorf did not want to pay high salaries to multiple players. It also appears that Krause subscribed to the theory that he'd rather break the dynasty up too early, than too late, which is what happened with the Celtics, who faded away due to age and injuries. The Kukoc thing was a sticking point but Pippen understandably wanted to cash in on his market value while it was close to the top, particularly with his injuries.

A championship franchise can make more money because they can generate revenue from playing home games nearly 2 months after most teams are done. It helps merchandising revenue too. There were downsides to keeping the Bulls together, as there are with a lot of teams with aging stars, but Michael Jordan was the exception to the rule, and it doesn't seam the organization appreciated that. Now the Bulls have been irrelevant for nearly 20 years.

namepeace said:

DonRants said:

So I am watching "The Last Dance" and scenes come on where Jordan is berating his rookie teammate "Scott Burrell"...calling him a "Ho'....I thought it was disturbing. What was worse was Burell never fought back. So I go online and Tracy McGrady basicly calls it abuse. Michael said he did it to "test and toughen up" his teammates...but Burrell only lasted one season at the bulls.

Then Michael punched Steve Kerr...geesh ...the littlest guy on the team. But at least Steve stood up for himself. Horace Grant has said that if you didn't stand up for yourself Michael would "ride you forever."

What do you guys think..those who saw it.

Yeah, Michael was a prick, but the truly great ones are like that. They're all about winning and being the best....if you don't get with the program (and raise your game), you're history. Kobe was no different....I've seen Tom Brady & Peyton Manning red-faced screaming at their guys on the sidelines. Larry Bird said "we played like sissies" after a playoff loss.

I've only seen a little of "Last Dance"....I'm a Knick fan, so to hell with Michael Jordan. I respect his game, but that's it. He's the enemy who always beat my team. I look at him the same way I look at Bird and Reggie Miller. And all these fraud Knick fans like Spike Lee who kiss his ass and give him standing ovations at the Garden can fuck off and die for all I care.

But if that's the criteria for a Knick fan wouldn't 98% of the NBA be your enemy for always beating your team? I was a major Suns fan in '93 who had a similar mindset, but at a certain point you gotta kinda look at the bigger cosmic reality there.

WhisperingDandelions said:

Most people who bully don't do it to raise the level of performance of their target, it is to bring it down. Michael was so immensely competitive that I think for the most part it was a way to challenge his team to be the best that it could be. I imagine their were times where he crossed the line, and that there were players who weren't lifted up by that approach. I don't think Michael got how someone wouldn't respond to his challenges by proving him wrong, as he used any challenge he could find to motivate himself to get better.

By the way, I have really enjoyed the series. Michael is complex. His relationship with the head of security really showed his human side. I can't imagine never being able to anywhere without a near riot surrounding you 24 x 7.

RJOrion said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

But if that's the criteria for a Knick fan wouldn't 98% of the NBA be your enemy for always beating your team? I was a major Suns fan in '93 who had a similar mindset, but at a certain point you gotta kinda look at the bigger cosmic reality there.

not true...the Knicks have a solid legacy...its just been tainted over the last 20 years...but from about 1989-1999, the Jordan era Bulls were the main obstacle to Knicks glory...even though the Pacers and Heat beat the Knicks in the playoffs a couple times , the Knicks beat the Pacers and Heat enough times during the 90s that it balanced out...but they could NEVER win playoffs series against the Bulls with Jordan...the 2 times Jordan retired, (1994 & 1999) the Knicks went to the Finals). [Edited 5/18/20 19:03pm]

That's true. Some of the best teams to never win a title fell at the feet of the Bulls. As in '94, the Knicks would have had a punchers chance to beat the Blazers in 92 or the Suns in 93.

ON ANOTHER NOTE . . .

The biggest NBA "what if" in my time as a fan is how the Bulls and the Rockets would have matched up in '94. Of all the teams the Bulls faced and beat in that decade, perhaps none would have matched up better than that 94 Houston team.

namepeace said:

RJOrion said:

WhisperingDandelions said: not true...the Knicks have a solid legacy...its just been tainted over the last 20 years...but from about 1989-1999, the Jordan era Bulls were the main obstacle to Knicks glory...even though the Pacers and Heat beat the Knicks in the playoffs a couple times , the Knicks beat the Pacers and Heat enough times during the 90s that it balanced out...but they could NEVER win playoffs series against the Bulls with Jordan...the 2 times Jordan retired, (1994 & 1999) the Knicks went to the Finals). [Edited 5/18/20 19:03pm]

That's true. Some of the best teams to never win a title fell at the feet of the Bulls. As in '94, the Knicks would have had a punchers chance to beat the Blazers in 92 or the Suns in 93.

ON ANOTHER NOTE . . .

The biggest NBA "what if" in my time as a fan is how the Bulls and the Rockets would have matched up in '94. Of all the teams the Bulls faced and beat in that decade, perhaps none would have matched up better than that 94 Houston team.

Knicks had their chance in '94, but they choked in the Finals vs Houston...so many bad turnovers, missed free throws, and Pat Riley's stubborness on letting Starks shoot us out of Game 7.

And if not for a bogus Hue Hollins call, they lose to a Bulls team WITHOUT Jordan....that would have been a total disaster.

uPtoWnNY said:

RJOrion said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Knicks had their chance in '94, but they choked in the Finals vs Houston...so many bad turnovers, missed free throws, and Pat Riley's stubborness on letting Starks shoot us out of Game 7.

And if not for a bogus Hue Hollins call, they lose to a Bulls team WITHOUT Jordan....that would have been a total disaster.

ill always remember during a timeout during Starks 2 for 18, you could read Chatles Oakley's lips (pause) saying to Pat Riley , "take that motherf---er out the game!"... but he stayed in the game and he kept missing... that was their year to get that ring...ill always blame Riley.

Riley has said in recent years that was the biggest mistake he's ever made, not going to Ro Blackman or Hubert Davis. Gee, thanks Pat.

Yes.

Call it what you want. Tough love. Bullying. Star treatment. It doesn't matter.

MJ I suppose did what he had to do to get the best out of his teammates.

I'm like Shannon Sharpe, however; it's a certain line you don't cross especially with

fellow veteran players. Like Shannon said either I'm gonna whip Mike's ass or he's gonna

have to whip mine. Larry Bird stated after a loss in the 84 Finals collectively his team played like

sissies to motivate them. Bird would have never walked up to Robert Parish and said you played like a sissy. Bird was a bad man but he wasn't a stupid man.

phunkdaddy said:

I guess Jordan wasn't so badass, then....all ruff & tuff until someone stands up to him. Fake-ass mfer.

Now Calvin Murphy would have gone after Parrish, I guarantee you that.

[Edited 5/21/20 6:48am]

uPtoWnNY said:

RJOrion said:

uPtoWnNY said: ill always remember during a timeout during Starks 2 for 18, you could read Chatles Oakley's lips (pause) saying to Pat Riley , "take that motherf---er out the game!"... but he stayed in the game and he kept missing... that was their year to get that ring...ill always blame Riley.

Riley has said in recent years that was the biggest mistake he's ever made, not going to Ro Blackman or Hubert Davis. Gee, thanks Pat.

Rolando Blackman had big-time experience, and Hubert was a smart player. They should have been given some run.

uPtoWnNY said:

namepeace said:

That's true. Some of the best teams to never win a title fell at the feet of the Bulls. As in '94, the Knicks would have had a punchers chance to beat the Blazers in 92 or the Suns in 93.

ON ANOTHER NOTE . . .

The biggest NBA "what if" in my time as a fan is how the Bulls and the Rockets would have matched up in '94. Of all the teams the Bulls faced and beat in that decade, perhaps none would have matched up better than that 94 Houston team.

Knicks had their chance in '94, but they choked in the Finals vs Houston...so many bad turnovers, missed free throws, and Pat Riley's stubborness on letting Starks shoot us out of Game 7.

And if not for a bogus Hue Hollins call, they lose to a Bulls team WITHOUT Jordan....that would have been a total disaster.

Maybe Game 7 of the Finals was the Knicks' "Ball Don't Lie" reckoning for that Hollins call.

namepeace said:

RJOrion said:

namepeace said:

Maybe Game 7 of the Finals was the Knicks' "Ball Don't Lie" reckoning for that Hollins call.

damn... i never looked at it like that, but the famous Rasheed Wallace quote does apply to that situation

It just dawned on me today!

Who is showing this programme? I have never come across this series but every week I hear about it.

The program had been airing on ESPN. My sister told me she had been watching it on her

Firestick. It may be on Netflix as well.

uPtoWnNY said:

I guess Jordan wasn't so badass, then....all ruff & tuff until someone stands up to him. Fake-ass mfer.

Now Calvin Murphy would have gone after Parrish, I guarantee you that.

[Edited 5/21/20 6:48am]

I wouldn't go that far as him being fake but yes he kniew who to pick on and who not to.

I got to give him props for standing up to a fellow hometown guy of mine in Xavier McDaniel. XMan used to talk shit to us younger guys when we used to play ball with him during the summer on the University of South Carolina campus. Xavier was a rough rider. Scottie Pippen knows this well from that 7 game playoff series against the Knicks but Jordan didn't back down. Xman got in his face and told hiim fuck you and Jordan went right back at him. Xman may have won a physical fight though.

Cinny said:

Who is showing this programme? I have never come across this series but every week I hear about it.

It is easy to find on ESPN and ESPN2 as they sometimes have a marathon of all the episodes. The new episodes have been on Sundays at 9 Eastern.

phunkdaddy said:

I am looking forward to the NBA returning. Things are more interesting without Golden State domination.

RJOrion said:

phunkdaddy said:

I wouldn't go that far as him being fake but yes he kniew who to pick on and who not to.

I got to give him props for standing up to a fellow hometown guy of mine in Xavier McDaniel. XMan used to talk shit to us younger guys when we used to play ball with him during the summer on the University of South Carolina campus. Xavier was a rough rider. Scottie Pippen knows this well from that 7 game playoff series against the Knicks but Jordan didn't back down. Xman got in his face and told hiim fuck you and Jordan went right back at him. Xman may have won a physical fight though.

in Pat Riley's book, he wrote about how when the Knicks first signed Anthony Mason, he and Xavier McDaniel would fight in practice, to the point that the Knicks had to let XMan go because those two couldnt coexist...VanGundy even said those two had the biggest practice brawl he had ever seen...X-Man was the ultimate NBA tough guy...i still feel like if the Knicks never let X-Man and Mark Jackson go, they wouldve won multiple rings.

The Knicks got Charles "Mister Softie" Smith to replace X-Man....we all now that went down.

Sad NBA news with the passing of Jerry Sloan and Patrick Ewing testing positive for COVID-19.