Ouch. MLB handed down punishment to the Astros for the 2017 sign-stealing episode. General Maanger Jeff Luhnow and manager A.. J. Hinch were suspended for a year; the Astros lose 1st and 2nd-round draft picks for 2020 and 2021, and the club was fined $5 million.

Astros owner Jim Crane decided a fresh start was needed and fired Luhnow and Hinch this afternoon.

Consider this: According to MLB, Luhnow didn't even know about the scheme. Hinch knew about it but tried twice to destroy the monitor the players were using. And THEY got fired.

Former Astros bench manager/current Red Sox manager Alex Cora actively participated in the sign-stealing scheme while with the Astros, and then ran a scheme of his own with his 2018-World-Series-winning Red Sox. I shudder to think what punishment he'll get but you have to assume he may be out of baseball for good. I mean, if MLB suspended a guy that didn't even know about it, what will they do to a guy that was part of it?

MLB said the sign-stealing scheme was "player driven". However, no players have been named or appear to face any kind of discipline - at least, not yet.

Bad day for the Astros, probably the Red Sox, and MLB. The Yankees have also been accused of sign stealing and the fact is that EVERY team tries to steal signs, and alway have.

For me a key part of the report was, “Players stated that if Manager A.J. Hinch told them to stop engaging in the conduct, they would have immediately stopped.” But he didn't tell them. He needed to be more direct than passive-aggressively disabling a monitor.

Can't wait to see the coverage on MLB network tonight.

RodeoSchro said:

Former Astros bench manager/current Red Sox manager Alex Cora actively participated in the sign-stealing scheme while with the Astros, and then ran a scheme of his own with his 2018-World-Series-winning Red Sox.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if Cora is gone for good. He has a lot of qualities, but strategically he sucks.

Where have you read about a 2018 Red Sox scheme involving Cora? That's news to me.

Rodeo is bad luck. hehe.

2freaky4church1 said:

Rodeo is bad luck. hehe.

That is very possible, LOL.

I feel bad for Kearshaw...all that booing he got

AZStreet said:

I feel bad for Kearshaw...all that booing he got

He got booed at Dodger Stadium, where the Astros could not cheat because the Astros didn't have a camera in center field.

The thing is that in 2017, the Astros had a better road record than they had a home record. So while I get all the cheating accusations, it appears the Astros weren't very good at it. They hit better on the road - without the video camera/trashcan banging assistance.

Former Astros pitcher Mike Fiers is the guy that blew the whistle, but I notice that he hasn't renounced the 2017 World Series victory or offered to give back his World Series Champion ring.

RodeoSchro said:

AZStreet said:

I feel bad for Kearshaw...all that booing he got

He got booed at Dodger Stadium, where the Astros could not cheat because the Astros didn't have a camera in center field.

The thing is that in 2017, the Astros had a better road record than they had a home record. So while I get all the cheating accusations, it appears the Astros weren't very good at it. They hit better on the road - without the video camera/trashcan banging assistance.

Former Astros pitcher Mike Fiers is the guy that blew the whistle, but I notice that he hasn't renounced the 2017 World Series victory or offered to give back his World Series Champion ring.

could they be forced to give them back? I would resist... Oh I lost that... is there some clause (like with Academy awards) that they can not sell them or they belong to the league?


it is a perminate mark on the team and city of houston....

OnlyNDaUsa said:

RodeoSchro said:

He got booed at Dodger Stadium, where the Astros could not cheat because the Astros didn't have a camera in center field.

The thing is that in 2017, the Astros had a better road record than they had a home record. So while I get all the cheating accusations, it appears the Astros weren't very good at it. They hit better on the road - without the video camera/trashcan banging assistance.

Former Astros pitcher Mike Fiers is the guy that blew the whistle, but I notice that he hasn't renounced the 2017 World Series victory or offered to give back his World Series Champion ring.

could they be forced to give them back? I would resist... Oh I lost that... is there some clause (like with Academy awards) that they can not sell them or they belong to the league?


it is a perminate mark on the team and city of houston....

There is so many twists and turns resulting from all this, it's quite fascinating.

Consider this:

The GM and Manager from each of the 2017 and 2018 World Champions have all been fired already, plus the Assistant GM of the 2017 World Champions.

John Farrell got fired after his team lost to Cora's cheating team in the 2017 postseason.

Farrell was replaced by Cora immediately after, and then proceeded to cheat his way to a record-118 wins and another World Championship.

Cora refused to visit the White House following the 2018 championship, citing Trump's "unethical behavior" toward Puerto Rico.

Cora boasted of becoming the first-ever Puerto Rican World Series winning manager, but now has shamed his entire country after being treated as a hero there.

One of only two other Puerto Ricans to ever manage in MLB, Dave Martinez, delivered a World Championship last year by beating Cora's former team, the cheating Houston Astros.

The Dodgers clearly got screwed in 2017, losing a very tight World Series that they likely would have won if the Astros hadn't cheated. It extended the Dodgers championship drought to now 38 years.

But the team that really got screwed by all this was the Yankees, three times in fact. They most likely would have made it to the World Series in 2017 if not for the Astros cheating. They would have most likely made it to the 2019 World Series if not for the Astros cheating. And quite possibly they would have made it to the 2018 ALCS, if it's determined the Red Sox had cheated extensively.

On top of that, the cheating 2018 Astros would have likely made it to the World Series if they hadn't lost to Cora's possibly cheating Red Sox.

Ain't karma a bitch!

RodeoSchro said:

The thing is that in 2017, the Astros had a better road record than they had a home record. So while I get all the cheating accusations, it appears the Astros weren't very good at it. They hit better on the road - without the video camera/trashcan banging assistance.

Come on now, stop with the bullshit.

During the 2017 postseason the Astros scored 51 runs in 9 home games.

But on the road, 27 runs in 9 games.

Give it a rest.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

RodeoSchro said:

He got booed at Dodger Stadium, where the Astros could not cheat because the Astros didn't have a camera in center field.

The thing is that in 2017, the Astros had a better road record than they had a home record. So while I get all the cheating accusations, it appears the Astros weren't very good at it. They hit better on the road - without the video camera/trashcan banging assistance.

Former Astros pitcher Mike Fiers is the guy that blew the whistle, but I notice that he hasn't renounced the 2017 World Series victory or offered to give back his World Series Champion ring.

could they be forced to give them back? I would resist... Oh I lost that... is there some clause (like with Academy awards) that they can not sell them or they belong to the league?


it is a perminate mark on the team and city of houston....

Any time any mention of giving something back comes up, it's always gonna be "well where do you draw the line?" If they are forced to give the trophy back, how far back would you have to go? Would teams have to vacate titles that had players taking PEDs? It's a slippery slope. You can def argue this Astros cheating scandal benefited more of the whole team than the PEDs which was more individually.

Is new Mets manager Carlos Beltran the next one to be fired? This article notes that he'll be managaing Rick Porcello and Dellin Betances, players on two teams--the Red Sox and Yankees respectively--his Astros eliminated in 2017.

AZStreet said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

could they be forced to give them back? I would resist... Oh I lost that... is there some clause (like with Academy awards) that they can not sell them or they belong to the league?


it is a perminate mark on the team and city of houston....

Any time any mention of giving something back comes up, it's always gonna be "well where do you draw the line?" If they are forced to give the trophy back, how far back would you have to go? Would teams have to vacate titles that had players taking PEDs? It's a slippery slope. You can def argue this Astros cheating scandal benefited more of the whole team than the PEDs which was more individually.

They don't have to give back their rings, although I wouldn't be opposed if they did. At least, the fielders. The pitchers didn't cheat but apparently knew what was going on.

This is a bummer because guys like Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman are really good guys. But I don't see how I can root for cheaters.

You have to be consistent. I don't like unrepentant serial adulterer Donald J. Trump because he's a cheater. Well, apparently so are Altuve, Springer, Correa, Bregman, etc. Unlike my "conservative" friends here, I'll apply the same principles to the Astros that I apply to Donald Trump.

Trade everyone from 2017.

.

[Edited 1/15/20 12:22pm]

sexton said:

Is new Mets manager Carlos Beltran the next one to be fired? This article notes that he'll be managaing Rick Porcello and Dellin Betances, players on two teams--the Red Sox and Yankees respectively--his Astros eliminated in 2017.

After role in Astros' sign-stealing scandal, can Carlos Beltran manage former foes with Mets?

https://www.usatoday.com/...476743002/

Man, there was no player more hated in Houston than Carlos Beltran after he ditched us for the Mets. But when he came back, he made amends and was forgiven. Now, however, it seems we were right about him the first time.

I can't see how Porcello or Betances can have one ounce of respect for Beltran, and I would assume their feeling will be shared by a lot of their team mates.

RodeoSchro said:

sexton said:

Is new Mets manager Carlos Beltran the next one to be fired? This article notes that he'll be managaing Rick Porcello and Dellin Betances, players on two teams--the Red Sox and Yankees respectively--his Astros eliminated in 2017.

Man, there was no player more hated in Houston than Carlos Beltran after he ditched us for the Mets. But when he came back, he made amends and was forgiven. Now, however, it seems we were right about him the first time.

I can't see how Porcello or Betances can have one ounce of respect for Beltran, and I would assume their feeling will be shared by a lot of their team mates.

Carlos Betran steps down as Mets manager after being hired two months ago: https://sports.yahoo.com/mets-part-ways-with-manager-carlos-beltran-over-signstealing-scandal-180553483.html

[Edited 1/16/20 13:24pm]

This is still just a rumor, but hmm... https://ftw.usatoday.com/...ve-yankees

Also....

https://ktla.com/2020/01/...o-dodgers/

sexton said:

This is still just a rumor, but hmm... https://ftw.usatoday.com/...ve-yankees

MLB said there was no evidence of that. Man, I hope so. If this rumor is true, about the only thing owner Jim Crane could do to salvage any value at all is move the franchise to another city and change the team name.

RodeoSchro said:

sexton said:

This is still just a rumor, but hmm... https://ftw.usatoday.com/...ve-yankees

MLB said there was no evidence of that. Man, I hope so. If this rumor is true, about the only thing owner Jim Crane could do to salvage any value at all is move the franchise to another city and change the team name.

Yeah, unless more evidence surfaces, I don't see this accusation going any further.

Meanwhile: https://nypost.com/2020/0...2017-mvp/

sexton said:

RodeoSchro said:

MLB said there was no evidence of that. Man, I hope so. If this rumor is true, about the only thing owner Jim Crane could do to salvage any value at all is move the franchise to another city and change the team name.

Yeah, unless more evidence surfaces, I don't see this accusation going any further.

Meanwhile: https://nypost.com/2020/0...2017-mvp/

I saw that. Ouch.

What I want to see is someone do an exhaustive study of the Astros; 2017 home at-bats. List who had trashcan bangs when they were at bat, and how many at-bats that happened. And, I guess, what the batting average was for a player with bangs and without bangs.

As an Astros fan, the important thing to me is to know if there were any players who DIDN'T utlilze the trashcan system. What I hope for more than anything is to see that someone like Altuve or Bregman didn't participate, but there's only one way to know for sure and that's to review the game tapes.

There was a clip of George Springer at bat in 2017 and there were four bangs as the pitcher went into his wind up. Springer blasted a double to the gap. The evidence seems to indicate Springer is a cheater. Until proven otherwise, I have to assume everyone else on the team was, too.

Maximum bummer.

will they be banned for life??? should be

jfenster said:

will they be banned for life??? should be

The players or Hinch/Luhnow?

I think Hinch and Luhnow got a raw deal and I don't think they should be banned.

But the players? I don't know about for life but I'd certainly see how a banishment of at least a year would be appropriate. Maybe it should be more than that, since Hinch and Luhnow didn't do anything wrong and they got a year each.

Unless the player(s) admit it though, it's going to be impossible to saywith certainty that this player or that player actually benefitted from the cheating system.

However, if there are a lot of examples of Jose Altuve getting hits right after you hear bangs, that's the kind of thing that could very well keep him out of the Hall of Fame.

Because of the seemingly arbitrary disciplinary action the league has taken over the years, former White Sox pitcher Jack McDowell spilled the beans about the Sox doing this in the 80s at the direction and implementation of LaRussa, who is still getting paid to be a part of the MLB and is pretty much looked at with reverence by the baseball world. There was actually a toggle switch in the manager's office and whoever was pitching the next day, would have to operate it. He also went off on LaRussa for the A's and 'roids.

PliablyPurple said:

Because of the seemingly arbitrary disciplinary action the league has taken over the years, former White Sox pitcher Jack McDowell spilled the beans about the Sox doing this in the 80s at the direction and implementation of LaRussa, who is still getting paid to be a part of the MLB and is pretty much looked at with reverence by the baseball world. There was actually a toggle switch in the manager's office and whoever was pitching the next day, would have to operate it. He also went off on LaRussa for the A's and 'roids.

I saw that. There was also a post by Tim Flannery who said that when he played/coached, he did everything he possibly could to steal signs.

This is a mess.

Maybe it's true MLB doesn't actually have evidence to prove they were using buzzers, but there's no doubt in my mind they don't want the buzzer scheme to be true.

Why?

Because suspending players a long time, especially star players, for something like that would have a huge impact on future games and on the image of MLB.

Not many people give a damn about managers or GMs getting suspended or banned, because they aren't the ones playing the games.

But if star players like Springer, Altuve, Bregman etc all are found to have been wired? Then they are screwed. And so is MLB and the Astros. Can you imagine an entire season (or longer) without Altuve, Springer, Bregman, etc? Fans who are season ticketholders or already purchased single game tickets would probably have a good case for a class action lawsuit.

I have zero problem with no players being disciplined for the trashcan banging, because how can you prove they listened for it and used the information to their benefit? You can't.

But when someone like Altuve does the improbable and homers off Chapman for the series clincher, and on his way to homeplate he makes it known he doesn't want his jersey ripped off, you damn well better believe something is highly fishy with it. Using his wife as an excuse was piss-poor.

And long before all this cheating news broke, several players on different teams had been talking about the Astros using buzzers.

This is really, really capable of having massive repercussions on the Astros and MLB.

There are no guaranteed lineups for season ticket holders when they purchase their tickets. If that was the case, they would have to be consulted before major trades . I say get rid of all of em, from management to the players level. Let em sit for a season. Perhaps a bit naive to think that no cheaters exist in professional sports, but it's a damn shame when talent v/s talent is not allowed to be showcased. These fucks are not only cheating their opponents, they are juicing their numbers, which can lead to bigger paydays and higher ticket and concession prices. Fuck 'em and their "100 win" season. We thought those guys were really good, turns out they were just assholes.

Beginning to wonder if anyone has played the game cleanly. Lee Smith mentioned at the Cubs Convention that guys talked about "something going on in the center field clock" when he was there. And that, considering the amount of games they lost, somone wasn't doing it right . Fuck 'em all, let the fans in free if we are just going to watch a bunch of cheats.

Corruption all over

PliablyPurple said:

There are no guaranteed lineups for season ticket holders when they purchase their tickets. If that was the case, they would have to be consulted before major trades . I say get rid of all of em, from management to the players level. Let em sit for a season. Perhaps a bit naive to think that no cheaters exist in professional sports, but it's a damn shame when talent v/s talent is not allowed to be showcased. These fucks are not only cheating their opponents, they are juicing their numbers, which can lead to bigger paydays and higher ticket and concession prices. Fuck 'em and their "100 win" season. We thought those guys were really good, turns out they were just assholes.

I agree with what you're saying, under normal circumstances.

However intentional misconduct that affects the outcome of games is something that I think can be used to initiate a lawsuit. Here's a link: https://www.kron4.com/new...-stealing/

And I think it's possible, if a bunch of star players for Houston are suspended for the season due to misconduct, that Houston fans can also start a lawsuit.

Because think about it ...

Can a team go into spring training with a $200M+ payroll, sell a shitload of tickets for the regular season (season tix and single games), then cut the payroll in half by trading all it's best players, and pocketing the money already made on tickets? I don't think so!

Do you remember the NFL strike in the 80's when they used replacement players to cross the picket line?

There are some instances where owners can't take advantage of fans, and I think a Houston roster of minor league caliber players definitely wouldn't fly if fans had already paid a premium to see the real Astros.