This is something I don't understand. I've come across many vegans that don't wear, eat nor possess anything made from animal flesh. Not a single thing. However, a tiny, yet significant portion of those is also OK with killing people under certain circumstances. Some are death penalty advocates, some support mercy killing, etc. Some say animals are inherently better than people. Is it a self-hate?

One of the symptoms of B-12 deficiency is a tendency toward irrational anger. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and blame it on that.

I don't get why they are not angry at lions and bears.

Genesia said:

One of the symptoms of B-12 deficiency is a tendency toward irrational anger. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and blame it on that.

2freaky4church1 said:

I don't get why they are not angry at lions and bears.

and Bengals

FullLipsDotNose said:

This is something I don't understand. I've come across many vegans that don't wear, eat nor possess anything made from animal flesh. Not a single thing. However, a tiny, yet significant portion of those is also OK with killing people under certain circumstances. Some are death penalty advocates, some support mercy killing, etc. Some say animals are inherently better than people. Is it a self-hate?

They remind of people who are anti-abortion but support the NRA, "Everybody has the right to live, but my right to bear a rifle matters more than the safety of students."

Well, I have news for them--some animal species kill as wantonly as humans do... Review Jane Goodall's amazement that chimps murder and have lethal wars with each other periodically, just like us.

FullLipsDotNose said:

This is something I don't understand. I've come across many vegans that don't wear, eat nor possess anything made from animal flesh. Not a single thing. However, a tiny, yet significant portion of those is also OK with killing people under certain circumstances. Some are death penalty advocates, some support mercy killing, etc. Some say animals are inherently better than people. Is it a self-hate?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a 'self-hate'? Do you mean a hate of humans as a species? I don't consume animal flesh, nor do I wear it. However, much to my own disgust, I have found excluding dairy extremely difficult, but I'm getting there slowly. I think people have a concept of what the 'perfect vegan' should be - some vegans still visit zoos whereas others completely disagree, some vegans disagree with keeping animals as pets, there was one vegan in the news recently who was complaining that his work pension was buying shares in companies associated with animals. All I can say is that, as someone who admires vegans, is that most just do their best, and it seems that for some their best is never enough - there is always someone out there questioning them and their choices in ways we would never do to anyone with other dietary choices. I do hate how vegans are put under the microscope in this way.

I am aware that this doesn't answer your question so, from my perspective, I think that (mostly) humans have choices and, in cases such as mercy killings (I would prefer voluntary euthanasia) there is an element of choice involved. It could be argued that criminals on death row made a choice when they committed the crime I guess (I am against the death penalty), whereas animals often have no choices, especially when faced with humans. We rip their kids from them at birth, we confine them into tiny spaces for their short pitiful life and then we moan when the price of milk or meat goes up in the supermarket with scant regard for the quality of life that paying a little extra can give. I think that some humans can be cruel, inhumane, selfish and have a want for power and money at any cost, even at the cost of their own species...so yes, I think hate of humans as a species (if that is what you meant) is too strong, but a hatred of the capabilities of humans and a hate of the ease in which we everyday support cruelty against other humans, as well as animals, would not be too strong IMO.

EmmaMcG said:

I don't understand why anyone would be a vegan to begin with. But, speaking as the carnivore I am, I can fully understand why some people are OK with killing humans and not animals. If I was given a gun and told I had to shoot a person that I didn't know or a dog I didn't know, I would shoot the person. I can't give you a definite answer as to why, but I would shoot the human every time rather than shoot the dog.

I find that sad.

maplenpg said:

i actually don't think there's any contradiction with thinking it's ok to kill people or animals in some circumstances while being vegan or veg. in the case of mercy killings, that actually seems 100% consistent with me, in that you want to minimize suffering. this is the position of utilitarian philosopher peter singer as i understand it, & it's the one i hold too, more or less.

there's no question that most animals are capable of suffering, & there's no question that the way we treat animals that we raise for food, chickens & pigs in particular, often do suffer, often terribly, so if you can have a diet without those things, it's better to avoid them.

& if you have a baby who's born with a condition that would lead it to have no quality of life, a life of pain or misery, it's more ethical to quickly put it out of its misery than let it go on.

both of those positions seem perfectly consistent to me.

the death penalty thing is a bit different i think, in that gets into positions of free will i believe - but there, if you're a person who thinks people act with free will (i don't, i think that's an incoherent idea) then it would probably be consistent to hold a person with intelligence accountable for their actions while still believing that an animal not capable of reason shouldn't. that is to say, if a man kills another man, you could believe they should be killed for that, but you wouldn't put an elephant on trial for killing a man (though we used to do that too).

i haven't watched this clip in years, & i have to run out for the day now & don't have time to review it, but i think this interview with peter singer gives a pretty good summary of his position on animal suffering.

[Edited 12/19/18 4:25am]

This argument is soooooooooooo old. Humans, like other animals, are omnivores as nature intended us to be. We can eat both flora and fauna. But we are the only omnivores that deliberately exclude a food source... That doesn't change the fact that we are designed to consume both, just like our fellow omnivores such as pigs, badgers, bears, coatis, civets, hedgehogs, possums, skunks, sloths, squirrels, raccoons, chipmunks, mice, rats, chimps, some birds and fish, etc.

EmmaMcG said:

maplenpg said:

I find that sad.

You said yourself that you're finding it hard to give up dairy. Well, unless you need to give it up due to some sort of medical condition, why bother? I will never understand why anyone would deprive themselves of things. Also, you say you admire vegans. Why??

Why bother? Because the dairy industry is cruel. And not bothering means supporting that cruelty. Now I live in the country, surrounded by cows, farms and farmers, so I'm not going to say that farmers don't care for their animals, but keeping cows constantly pregnant and then taking their calves away to steal their milk is wrong (my opinion, I know you disagree). I've been to free range egg farms too and they don't fare well, hence I try to buy eggs from people with chickens as pets. I would never, ever tell anyone else what to eat, but for me consciously choosing cruelty just to satisfy myself doesn't sit well with me. I admire the strength of those able to say no when I struggle (especially where cake is involved).

EDIT to add - plus we deprive ouselves of things all the time, not having the extra chocolates in case we get fat; not buying beyond our means in case we get into debt; not having an affair with a married person because it's wrong etc... not eating something because it involves cruelty seems fine to me.

[Edited 12/19/18 12:18pm]

I buy Kosher, that's the best I can do. And if I have to swerve, I'm hitting the shit out of the dog not the child.

maplenpg said:

maplenpg said:

EDIT to add - plus we deprive ouselves of things all the time, not having the extra chocolates in case we get fat; not buying beyond our means in case we get into debt; not having an affair with a married person because it's wrong etc

[Edited 12/19/18 12:18pm]

so if i bought my neighbours wife a diamond bracelet as a way of saying thanks because she blew me while i ate a snickers.... that would be wrong, yeah?

just want to be sure i'm getting this right

MoBettaBliss said:

EmmaMcG said:

MoBettaBliss said:

so if i bought my neighbours wife a diamond bracelet as a way of saying thanks because she blew me while i ate a snickers.... that would be wrong, yeah?

just want to be sure i'm getting this right

A diamond bracelet for a blowjob and a snickers? I wonder what kind of gift you'd give for anal while eating KFC. I'm not offering or anything, I'm just curious.

this may come as a shock, but the thought of eating kfc while having anal sex doesn't exactly have me reaching for the credit card

maybe i'm just a sweet old fashioned guy after all

MoBettaBliss said:

im not vegan and some people SHOULD be killlled

EmmaMcG said:

MoBettaBliss said:

this may come as a shock, but the thought of eating kfc while having anal sex doesn't exactly have me reaching for the credit card

maybe i'm just a sweet old fashioned guy after all

It's not classy but you can't deny that it's convenient. You can even rest the bucket on her back as you go about your business.

but where would i put my corn?

you make some valid points... but i think a mango would be more appropriate

so, just to be clear... snickers for a blow job.... mango for anal

got that everyone?

you're welcome

EmmaMcG said:

MoBettaBliss said:

I honestly can't quite picture someone who seriously practices veganism advocating for death penalty, so please OP enlighten us more about this tiny portion of vegan people who believe in that lol
But to begin with, I don't see the deep correlation between the two anyway. Surely not all vegans are the most educated people about the downsides of death penalty? And when I say downsides I'm talking $$$
Veganism is a lifestyle choice. You want vegans to leave you alone then do the same. Why do you seek ethical consistency that I'm sure you can't even keep up yourself from these people, just because they practice something you don't understand? Why do self-proclaimed Christians cheat and lie? Why do some Buddhist kill bugs and believe that's ok...you get the idea.

Also, don't oversell it with "vegans believe animals are better than human!" bullcrap. It's mostly said by children on the internet.

maplenpg said:

purplethunder3121 said:

happinessinitsuncutform said:

I honestly can't quite picture someone who seriously practices veganism advocating for death penalty, so please OP enlighten us more about this tiny portion of vegan people who believe in that lol
But to begin with, I don't see the deep correlation between the two anyway. Surely not all vegans are the most educated people about the downsides of death penalty? And when I say downsides I'm talking $$$
Veganism is a lifestyle choice. You want vegans to leave you alone then do the same. Why do you seek ethical consistency that I'm sure you can't even keep up yourself from these people, just because they practice something you don't understand? Why do self-proclaimed Christians cheat and lie? Why do some Buddhist kill bugs and believe that's ok...you get the idea.

Also, don't oversell it with "vegans believe animals are better than human!" bullcrap. It's mostly said by children on the internet.

Yeah, not all vegans, exactly as you said. I don't know why you have a problem with my post then.

But back to your question: I came across a person who is a vegan and believes that some people just don't deserve to live. On top of that, that person is racist. This actually doesn't surprise me because I have seen white vegans that said something like racism is better that using animal resources. Like, wut.

FullLipsDotNose said:

happinessinitsuncutform said:

I honestly can't quite picture someone who seriously practices veganism advocating for death penalty, so please OP enlighten us more about this tiny portion of vegan people who believe in that lol
But to begin with, I don't see the deep correlation between the two anyway. Surely not all vegans are the most educated people about the downsides of death penalty? And when I say downsides I'm talking $$$
Veganism is a lifestyle choice. You want vegans to leave you alone then do the same. Why do you seek ethical consistency that I'm sure you can't even keep up yourself from these people, just because they practice something you don't understand? Why do self-proclaimed Christians cheat and lie? Why do some Buddhist kill bugs and believe that's ok...you get the idea.

Also, don't oversell it with "vegans believe animals are better than human!" bullcrap. It's mostly said by children on the internet.

Yeah, not all vegans, exactly as you said. I don't know why you have a problem with my post then.

But back to your question: I came across a person who is a vegan and believes that some people just don't deserve to live. On top of that, that person is racist. This actually doesn't surprise me because I have seen white vegans that said something like racism is better that using animal resources. Like, wut.

What a pile of bullshit. You have no idea. Happiness was spot on with everything they said.