Once when I was walking downtown I came across a fiesty ol lady who was holding up a poster of a woman tied to a chair, S&M style. She had a little table set up and was yelling, "Wake up women, men are masterbating to you. Fight back women, fight back!"

She was obviously anti-porn and anti-man, but I decided to approach her with a question anyway. Here's how the conversation kinda went:

Me: Excuse me, can I ask you a question?
Hag: This is for women only.
Me: I was just wondering though, what about the women who willingly put themselves into these situations, aren't they...
Hag: Look, just get lost.
Me: But no one is putting a gun to their head to do porno.
Hag: Get out of my face.
Me: But I was just curious as to...
Hag: I'm not spending all day on the street to fulfill your curiosity.
Me: Okay, have a nice day.

I walked away laughing as she stood there, huffing and puffing by herself as people just walked by. I can't stand that fucking mentality. I'm tired of people throwing the blame in the wrong directions. Women aren't forced to do porn, they want the money and a lot of them really love doing it.

Women allow themselves to get degraded in most common cases. If you let a guy ram you in the ass and bust his nut on your face in front of a camera, then what do you expect, to be treated with respect?

These women are free thinkers, and men certainly aren't to blame for this anymore than thay are.

Men are the ones degrading women, they look at us like were some kind of sex object.

Some women like it, some women don't.

I was watching some show with old porn stars and they said that a lot of things were forced on them and they either didn't know how to say no, or they were so desperate for money that they couldn't say no. It's ashame that they turn to porn...most of them are fucked up and don't know what else to do.

So I can only agree with half of what you're saying EVM. There's always 2 sides to something, and we don't see them both.


blah
[This message was edited Mon Apr 14 12:50:24 PDT 2003 by CarrieLee]

Paisley wrote:

Men are the ones degrading women, they look at us like were some kind of sex object.


Well a lot of that is human nature. Men need to see women in a sexual manner in order to breed. It's when they lose control and become assholes that they mess it up. Of course when women do all this freaky shit on video, a lot of guys get new fantasies and wanna try what they see.

And yes, a lot of guys do lose respect from women when they see so many of them on the covers of porno's, with dicks in their mouths.

CarrieLee said:

Aren't we all?

Zipper said:

Yeah but at least some of us know that we don't need to do porn to help us!

CarrieLee wrote:

Some women like it, some women don't.

I was watching some show with old porn stars and they said that a lot of things were forced on them and they either didn't know how to say no, or they were so desperate for money that they couldn't say no. It's ashame that they turn to porn...most of them are fucked up and don't know what else to do.

So I can only agree with half of what you're saying EVM. There's always 2 sides to something, and we don't see them both.

Well, I don't think they were really forced against their will. I mean if they really didn't want to do it, they could have simply said no, but they can't resist the money.

Spreading your legs for a guys is a lot easier than getting a Wall Street job, that's for sure. But it's all about not wanting to make something better of yourself. No woman has to do porn, they choose to do it.

Implying that no women ever want to do porn is like saying theres noone out there that likes vanilla ice cream. Of course there are women that are in this business because they want to be.

That old woman holding the poster is basically shoving the whole blame off on men. She's being unrealistic, and based on your conversation, obviously doesn't want to confront the facts.

A year later I saw the same woman again, only this time she was yelling about animal cruelty.

EvilWhiteMale said:

Read some Camille Paglia, she goes off on (I think) this very woman in one of her essays. And I mean GOES OFF.

EvilWhiteMale said:

Dude are you in DC? There's a woman here that does the same thing.

The blame goes both ways. Ultimately, the things that the porn producers are doing can be viewed as degrading, but the women also have the power to not get involved as well.

CarrieCee made the best point. Many of these girls are pretty fucked up, and drugs are often involved as well. Also, many get into the business as soon as they turn 18, and the question becomes whether or not that is old enough to be making a decision that can screw up the rest of your life. So, maybe it should be viewed that the men are degrading the women, with their consent. Does that make it right? I don't know the answer to that question, in all honesty. Morally, it may be wrong, but should it be illegal? This is a tough one.

Anxiety wrote:

Read some Camille Paglia, she goes off on (I think) this very woman in one of her essays. And I mean GOES OFF.


Do you know what article or essay it was?

NovaAngel wrote:

Dude are you in DC? There's a woman here that does the same thing.

I'm actually in NYC, but maybe she migrated down to DC as well. I remember her as being in her mid-40's, thin, and with very short hair.

If anyone here ever sees her, challenge what she's rambling about. You'll get a real kick out of raising her blood pressure.

EvilWhiteMale said:

it's not quite that simple, though. i agree, americans have an extremely unhealthy relationship to sexuality, and our cultural patterns tend to generate sickness in that regard. it would be better if we could all learn to embrace sexuality and celebrate it, like legalizing hooking would be a start. ain't gonna happen with THIS administration though

but anyway back to your topic: think of it this way too. for generation after generation women have been denied some of the most basic human rights. in many countries they are not allowed to vote, control who they marry, learn to read and write, etc. and if a woman has no education, no resources, she pretty much has to sell what she has. in some cases she's actually forced into a brothel situation by men who hjave power over her.

i agree, though, that in this day and age in some countries women do have the right to choose, and should exercise that choice wisely. but there's also more complex issues involved too, like the underlying psychology of a learned 'victim' mentality

EvilWhiteMale said:[quote]NovaAngel wrote:

Dude are you in DC? There's a woman here that does the same thing.




Oh yeah that's her. I've seen her at the subway many times. People just walk on though and pay her no mind. She's more annoying than anything else.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 14 17:04:28 PDT 2003 by NovaAngel]

EvilWhiteMale said:

Out of context, yes, but if I let a guy ram me in the ass and come all over my face, I expect to be treated with the UTMOST respect. By the guy, the cameraman, and everyone else involved. Damn! That's some serious stuff.
As for the public at large, they're gonna think what they're gonna think. I can't change that. But what's with the low opinion of female porn stars anyway? I'm sick of the madonna/whore deal. If you "consume" porn, you're promoting it as an enterprise.

As for everything else, I don't believe in blaming the victim, so when women are sold or otherwised forced into sex work, that's just plain wrong. But when a woman goes into it willingly, then there's no point in crying "exploitation."



stupid typos...
[This message was edited Mon Apr 14 17:56:24 PDT 2003 by CarrieMpls]

XxAxX wrote:

but anyway back to your topic: think of it this way too. for generation after generation women have been denied some of the most basic human rights. in many countries they are not allowed to vote, control who they marry, learn to read and write, etc. and if a woman has no education, no resources, she pretty much has to sell what she has. in some cases she's actually forced into a brothel situation by men who hjave power over her.


I know that has sometimes been the case, but it's not with Jenna, Vanessa, or any other big porn star. Most of them do it cuz they want money, drugs, or a good time. They're in total control and have a choice.

CarrieMpls wrote:

Out of context, yes, but if I let a guy ram me in the ass and come all over my face, I expect to be treated with the UTMOST respect. By the guy, the cameraman, and everyone else involved. Damn! That's some serious stuff.


See, although it's fantasy stuff, and I have no problem watching it, I really can't have much respect for these women. I don't condemn what they do. As long as they're doing what's right for them, it's all good. But I sure as hell wouldn't want my wife or daughter to make money catching a face full of jizz. Would you want your kids involved in porn? How can I respect them for doing that? A porn star is not worthy of the same kind of respect as a woman who has a 9-5 job, a monogamous relationship, etc. I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I think most men would agree.

EvilWhiteMale said:

You may not want to sound judgemental, but, um, you are. Would I choose the job for myself? No. But do I think less of someone who does? No. Why should I? Just because I wouldn't want to do it? There are plenty of jobs I wouldn't want to do, but as long as someone is making an honest living and happy with it, I can respect that.
While it wouldn't be my first choice of careers for a son or daughter of mine, if they chose to do it, so be it.

So you wouldn't be horribly bothered if your daughter was in numerous orgy scenes with Ron Jeremy and the gang? Would you "respect" her wish to do this?
[This message was edited Mon Apr 14 18:10:34 PDT 2003 by EvilWhiteMale]

EvilWhiteMale said:

If my hypothetical daughter were old enough to make her own decisions, yes, I would respect her choice.

Apparently, we have very different ideas about sex. As long as everything is safe and consensual, I just don't see anything wrong with it.

I think it's also cuz I'm a man. We're very protective of our own. I'd be out of my mind if I found out my hypothetical wife or daughter were involved in that. I'd rather they value sex more and not throw it around to anyone just cuz there'll be a paycheck afterwards.

And that just comes back to the "degradation" argument. No one would consider it "degrading" if attitudes towards it were different. What's degrading is your opinion of these women's chosen profession.

Would you feel the same way about your son? Does your opinion of male porn stars differ from that of female? If so, why?

I just don't understand how so many men can support such an industry and yet have no respect for the women who work in it. If I get bad service or something makes me lose respect for a business, I stop patronizing it. I also have a healthy respect for the people who provide the services I want, especially the jobs I wouldn't want to do, whether that be the guy at the copy place or the guy who picks up my garbage. I make a conscious effort not to support businesses whose practices I don't respect.

You make a very good point, and I totally respect it. Everything you say makes sense. I'm just being totally honest here. Some guys may say they'd have no problem marrying and settling down with a porn star, but chances are they're either a little twisted, or they're lying.

As far as if I had a son in the business, it wouldn't bother me as much, but it would still bother me. I'd rather he get work where he uses his mind instead of his dick. Like I said, men are very protective of their women. I know it drives women crazy to hear this, but it's the truth about how most men feel.

I respect your honesty.

And it does drive women crazy.

See, if we get emotionally involved with a porn star, it makes us feel like sex between us is worthless and just another job to them. Plus we're simply not crazy about knowing that she's been penetrated by Lord knows how many nasty dudes. I don't think it's weird or wrong for a guy to not desire her as a girlfriend or wife.

The door swings both ways though. If you watch the Showtime reality program about Seymore Butts and his life, you'll see that he can't get into a real relationship with a woman cuz his dates are so turned off by his occupation. They wouldn't want him for a husband either.

carriempls said: "...if I let a guy ram me in the ass and come all over my face, I expect to be treated with the UTMOST respect"

and

"I respect your honesty.

And it does drive women crazy."

not only women, carrie. drives my ass crazy too, and HEY MR. RUBBER DUCKY, i'm a fag, and i think you are too.

evilwhitemale, i just don't see how you can justify to yourself the fact that having a son in the porn business wouldn't bother you as much. you say it's because "we men are protective of our women." bullshit. if you actually cared about women, then you wouldn't jerk off to them and then turn around and say you have no respect for them. if you cared about them, you'd consider what situations in their life brought them to that point...i mean, c'mon, you know as well as i do that no 10-year-old girl is saying "i wanna be a porno star when i grow up!"

you have to consider that very often, the ONLY thing that these women have EVER been complimented on is their looks and their willingness to please men.

ugh. the ignorance here pisses me off. and i'm sorry, cuz like carrie, i DO appreciate and value your honesty, but it just sickens me how straight men think about women sometimes.

carriempls said: "...if I let a guy ram me in the ass and come all over my face, I expect to be treated with the UTMOST respect"

oh yeah, i forgot...FUCK YEAH, carrie, EXACTLY. i don't understand how so many men WANT a woman to do this kinda shit, but if they do, she's a whore who's not worthy of respect.