you watching and getting off on it, yet despising the women at the same time, says just as much (if not more) about your problems. you deserve just as much of your self-loathing as you give the women.

and what you call "protective" is actually much more about your need to control women's bodies and their sexuality--exactly what women have attempted to get away from.

theblueangel said:

exactly!

all of this is why we need to teach girls from a very young age not to rely on their looks to make something of themselves, or to manipulate people. if we give girls the idea that their only worth is their looks and bodies, instead of their brains, then it will lead to serious problems.

some people who come from abusive homes can beat the odds and make something big of themselves regardless, but most won't. most will continue to degrade themselves and let others do so as well, because it's what feels normal to them. don't judge unless you've been there yourself.

those of you who contribute your money to the porn industry, you drive the demand for the product--and you are no better than the women you desire, yet hate.

TheBlueAngel wrote:

evilwhitemale, i just don't see how you can justify to yourself the fact that having a son in the porn business wouldn't bother you as much.

It's like this. A father wouldn't have as much of a problem with his son going out, drinking and getting laid as he would with his daughter. I'm sure you can see what I'm saying. Fathers are a million times more protective of their daughters than they are of their sons. It's not that we're being assholes, it's that we're being true to our nature and nothing will change that.

you say it's because "we men are protective of our women." bullshit. if you actually cared about women, then you wouldn't jerk off to them and then turn around and say you have no respect for them. if you cared about them, you'd consider what situations in their life brought them to that point...i mean, c'mon, you know as well as i do that no 10-year-old girl is saying "i wanna be a porno star when i grow up!"

When I refer to "our women" I mean those we are married to or those in our family. I don't care what other women do with their lives but I want my own to do more with theirs. You can even criticize that statement, but again it's human nature.

TheBlueAngel also wrote:

oh yeah, i forgot...FUCK YEAH, carrie, EXACTLY. i don't understand how so many men WANT a woman to do this kinda shit, but if they do, she's a whore who's not worthy of respect.


That's not really true. It's when she lets many total strangers do it to her that we consider her a whore. I'm sure you see the difference between a girl doing that for her boyfriend or husband than doing it for a hundred dudes they barely know. Don't you?

Individuals, men and women, have choices to make. If you give money to a porn producer, you are supporting their depiction of women. You, and they, have every right have whatever view of women that you wish (as long as all of the people invovled are of legal age and consent, of course).

I simply choose not to support the makers of films who show women in a fashion that I think is degrading. Whether or not the women invovled are 'allowing themselves to be degraded' will differ on a case-by-case basis, and is to a large degree beside the point. The consumers drive the industry.

NewAgeGirl wrote:

and what you call "protective" is actually much more about your need to control women's bodies and their sexuality--exactly what women have attempted to get away from.

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping our wives and daughters away from shit like this. It's what we're supposed to do in a civilized society.

NewAgeGirl also wrote:

those of you who contribute your money to the porn industry, you drive the demand for the product--and you are no better than the women you desire, yet hate.


We don't hate them, we just don't want to have a family with them. Though some guys don't mind. But can you imagine how disturbing it must be for a kid to discover that his mom sucked cock for a living? Think his/her friends won't make life a living hell? Why do that to the kid?

EvilWhiteMale said:

But why do you feel differently about a woman who does this than a man? Why is our sexuality to be stifled by labels and morals while a man's isn't?

The double standard needs to stop.

EvilWhiteMale said:

and if someday you have a daughter who happens to run across your stash of porn, maybe giving her the impression that nice men like her daddy watch porn so gosh how bad could it be, how will you explain it? you appear to want to control women's sexuality and have it your way--the worthless 'bad' girls for you to wank over and the 'good' girls ("your women").

EvilWhiteMale said:

oh, now it's about family values, huh? so it's ok for dad to have been a porn star, or at the very least to be a porn connoisseur/user, but it's mom sucking dicks that's gonna be the downfall of the family and society? what if daddy was her pimp/porn flick producer? somehow he's better?

NewAgeGirl said:

I dont hate anybody,except my gardner and his damn leaf blower.Desire,not that either,I do just fine.But at the same time I dont look down on women,if thats what they want to do.I come from a alcoholic family also,its just I made some different decisions when I was younger that steered me in a positive direction.Maybe I got lucky.I dont know.But I sure hate the thought of being used and degraded in a porn flick!

I almost forgot,Carrie your avatar kicks ass...
[This message was edited Mon Apr 14 21:22:09 PDT 2003 by crazyhorse]

crazyhorse said:

Thanks!

CarrieMpls wrote:

But why do you feel differently about a woman who does this than a man? Why is our sexuality to be stifled by labels and morals while a man's isn't?

The double standard needs to stop.

I hear what you're saying, but it's human nature to feel this way. This is how it's always been and it will probably always be this way. You can't change the way people feel. I know it must be frustrating, but it is what it is.

EvilWhiteMale said:

How do you know it's human 'nature' and not a learned behavior that can be changed?

Lot's of women use their sexuality for material gain - and that stretches the whole gambit from pole dancing and porn videos, to housewives who fuck their husbands only when they want a new household appliance, or women who intently wear a short skirt to a job interview to influence the inerviewee.

That's male exploitation

NewAgeGirl wrote:

and if someday you have a daughter who happens to run across your stash of porn, maybe giving her the impression that nice men like her daddy watch porn so gosh how bad could it be, how will you explain it? you appear to want to control women's sexuality and have it your way--the worthless 'bad' girls for you to wank over and the 'good' girls ("your women").

I have a simple solution to that problem. I wouldn't have any porn in the house. See how easy that is?


oh, now it's about family values, huh? so it's ok for dad to have been a porn star, or at the very least to be a porn connoisseur/user, but it's mom sucking dicks that's gonna be the downfall of the family and society? what if daddy was her pimp/porn flick producer? somehow he's better?

Okay okay, take it easy. Would you like a martini to relax a bit? When did I ever say it was okay for the dad to be involved in porn? I don't remember saying that. I don't think it's cool for anyone to do it. All I'm saying is that if one of my parents had to be a porn star, I'd rather it be my dad. It would bother the shit out of me, but not as much as if it were my mom. Ask any guy and he'll tell you the same thing. There's nothing wrong with feeling this way, even if you don't like it.

Applekisses wrote:

How do you know it's human 'nature' and not a learned behavior that can be changed?

How would you change it?

VelvetSplash wrote:

Lot's of women use their sexuality for material gain - and that stretches the whole gambit from pole dancing and porn videos, to housewives who fuck their husbands only when they want a new household appliance, or women who intently wear a short skirt to a job interview to influence the inerviewee.

That's male exploitation


It's very true that women use sex to make their way in the world. Many women sell themselves every day with short skirts, cleavage showing tops, nice perfume, make-up, etc. I'm not saying all women do it, but it happens a lot. That just lowers the respect level even more when men see that too much.

Apolgies for my terrible grammar! LOL

interviewee = interviewer, and intently, should have really been intentionally.

EvilWhiteMale said:

nuh uh. cop-out. people's attitudes can change and be changed, obviously. it takes effort is all

It's not a cop-out at all. There are some things that are imbedded in our nature and natural instincts. I really don't see this attitude changing.

i disagree. that argument has been made and disproven, we are not ALL 'nature', any more than we are ALL 'nurture'. (i.e. - natural selves vs. learned selves) it is a combination of both and attitidues can be learned

But don't you feel we have natural instincts?

Just want to say, I think this is a terrific, thought provoking thread. So far, most people are debating in a very civilized manner, and I'm really enjoying hearing all the different viewpoints. Kudos to EWM for creating this thread, and to everyone else who is participating!

Thanks, and big ups to you too Jedi.

EvilWhiteMale said:

It can and should. There was a time in my life I'd have mostly agreed with you. And I don't anymore. It's not that difficult.

GOD I LOVE WOMEN

EvilWhiteMale said:

well, yeah we have tendencies. but just because a woman can bear and suckle a child her options shouldn't be limited. she shouldn't be automatically relegated to the 'breeder' heap just because she's capable. men have to learn to stop disregarding women this way.

but yeah, underlying it all we have basic animal urges which incline us toward one gender role or another.
but i think men and women share a lot of the same urges, and don't seem to share them because they manifest in different due to the roles required of male/female in society.

the myth that women just want to get married and build a family. half the women i know are raising a child because of an accident with birth control. not exactly by design. and, a lot of times men run off and split when this happens, forcing the women into a cycle of 'nurturing'.

things are changing though, the genders are starting to explore their options. for example, it's ok for a women to be the bread winner and a man to stay home. it's not uncommon.

but, to be clear just because i'm posting on this thread doesn't mean i'm against porn. i dig porn and think it's various forms should be legal and taxable with health benefits.

ultimately i guess i think that involvement in the porn industry isn't degrading where a woman 1) enters into it by choice 2) is paid for services rendered 3) understands that she, the person, is not defined by how others may perceive her. #3 is where i think a lot of women suffer in that profession