imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

exercising my right to My mother and her partner have been together longer than many straight couples as have many of their friends. I am straight and I have never had the desire to engage in homosexual activity. So let me just sat once again

I had a friend growing up whose mom was like my second mother. She's gay and was such a good influence on my life -- she's actually the person who introduced me to Prince -- and my friend has grown up just fine.
Also, two of my best friends from childhood, they're like family, are a lesbian couple and are exploring their options about adopting. I can't wait for them to have a child...I know they'll be loving and wonderful parents. The fact that their gay has nothing to do with how they'll raise a child.

jessyMD32781 said:

my congratulations on your mom and her partner...they have beaten a statistic! That's cool...notice i did say i was speaking in generalities...of course there are people ho have managed to last, interestingly it is usually lesbian couples rather than gay male couples that last longer.

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

What statistic are you talking about? And where do you get these conclusions?

I'll be back...

I very much respect your opinion. And far be it from me to give you crap, but I absolutely am seizing this opportunity to sift through what I see as quintessential, flawed logic on this matter…



I come from the school that thinks sexual orientation is of a diathesis-stress-like origin: the product of varying combinations of environment cues and/or a biological disposition. I happen to have been born gay to a pair of typical, healthy heterosexual parents. Nonetheless, I can buy some of your argument, in fact, as I too speak from a place of similar experience… so I am not making assumptions here either. I tried heterosexual sex for years, no doubt partly because of family precedent, but more so because it’s the sanctioned norm – culturally, recreationally, politically, legally, even religiously. But while it was physically gratifying, it spoke not at all to any fulfillment above the carnal – and therein lies the true essence of sexual orientation. This continues to evade people.

The person you describe above ultimately arrives at a sexual self-identification based on the fact he/she tried something out, enjoyed it and decided to repeat the pattern of pleasure. Many people might ask: Within the parameters of responsible, legal, healthy and consenting adulthood, what’s the problem here? I rather think we all are born and die “only sexual” – it’s the hang-ups of a provincial majority that forces the uncomfortable, ridiculous and divisive prefixes like bi, omni-, homo- or hetero-. As it were, if that kid accepts to define him/herself as genuinely “bi,” what sufficient insight do any of us have into their psyche to say they’re not?

I concede, however, that I do see something possibly unhealthy in the scenario you describe: Nowhere have you suggested that child matured into a sexual identity based on anything but physical gratification. The person, then, is likely destined to an incomplete sexuality, skewed concepts about love and possibly a life of less-than-fulfilling romantic relationships. Here, what should bother people is the fact this child encountered failing models of sexuality based on the natural and comprehensive mental and spiritual engagement of a partner, or – God forbid – love. Unfortunately, this is all too common. Based on the popular (albeit dubious) notion that 80 to 90 percent of the world’s adult role models – parents, teachers, philosophers, clerics, relationship counselors, porn stars, popes, hookers and divorcees – are “hetero,” I ask, then, who truly has offered a crippled example of sexuality?

One’s real identity (sexually and beyond) encompasses far more of them than that part which is gratified by physical pleasure. Humans repeatedly masturbate too, and it feels good. Yet who would define themself as “manusexual?” Perhaps if we taught our children to consider their intimate existence based on factors that offer them the greatest complete spiritual fulfillment and a capacity to return something similar to another healthy person the world would be better off.



Yet above and below, the reverse is in question. This baffles me.



The exact same could be said of the African American lifestyle, the mildly mentally retarded lifestyle, the midget lifestyle, the female lifestyle and the Orthodox Christian lifestyle. Yet for every one of these groups, quality of life is more compromised by the ignorant, prejudicial, malicious and/or fear-laden societal dictates of a rival in-group than their own doing. Which of these parents would you blanketly advise not to reproduce for fear their lifestyles might influence their children? Which should no longer multiply so as not to bring any more hated individuals into this world? Which should, by extension, compromise their very existence because others have some problem with them?

Punishing the oppressed for the sins of the oppressor is simply wrong. Again, the problem stems from a parochial majority who 1) can’t seem to reconcile its own sexual feelings; and 2) get offs on trying to corral and deny those members who have. If people finally learned to mind their own business about what goes on in their neighbors’ bedrooms, those neighbors – and their children – could live without be castigated, held in prejudicial mystique and anger, hated or legislated against. It’s one’s duty to seize one’s own hatred, not the duty of the hated to no longer live and reproduce.



This is such a popular notion. Let’s look at it…

Just think about the number of institutions and mechanisms that address couples, healthy or dysfunctional – TV shows, commercials, movies, any given love song, churches and their doctrines, government agencies and their legislation and regulations, the wedding industry, hotels, adoption agencies, employers and the domestic benefits they offer, and so on. How many speak to the heterosexual population? How many speak to the non-heterosexual population? Pretty disparate, no? Plus it looks like a tide of future legislation will further suppress the viability for same-sex couples to enjoy many of the resources to which heterosexual couples are privy.

I’ve never looked to outside parties to validate the spirit of any romantic relationship I’ve had, but not one of us exists in a vacuum. We are all influenced by those things in life that make it easier to cope or that stifle us. Given all the doting heterosexual coupling has gotten in society since the beginning of recorded history, is it any wonder it would last longer than non-heterosexual pairing? I couldn’t even walk down most American streets hand-in-hand with another male, unless he was my toddler son, without drawing stares or perhaps flying insults – and sometimes even bottles or bullets.

But for fun, just how long has the typical, married straight couple been together? According to U.S. Census Bureau report P70-80 on marriage statistics, written in 1996 and updated for 2002, about 50 percent of first-time newlywed men under 45, and 44 to 52 percent of first-time newlywed women in the same age group, may experience divorce. Those numbers increase for second- and third-time spouses.

As for marriage duration, first marriages that end in divorce last about seven to eight years. And that length falls for each subsequent marriage.

Hmm. Long, healthy relationships those hetero pairings are, eh?!



I appreciate your qualification here. But while your views probably are the majority, science suggests they aren’t necessarily correct, much less detrimental...

In fact, according to a 2001 analysis of studies on 21 children of same-sex (mostly lesbian) couples over 18 years by University of Southern California sociologists Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz, homosexual parentage does have some effect on a child – but in ways many people have downplayed, couched or might not expect. According to the study, published in the American Sociological Review (and I’ll try to use language that is as neutral as possible):

* Children of these couples are more likely to depart from traditional gender roles, with daughters more frequently dressing, playing and behaving in ways that don't conform to sex-typed cultural norms. They show greater interest in activities with both masculine and feminine qualities. They have higher aspirations to occupations that are not traditionally female.
* In terms of aggression and play, sons of these couples behave in less traditionally masculine ways. They are likely to be more nurturing and affectionate than their counterparts in heterosexual families.
* Sons of these couples show more sexual restraint than those of hetero couples
* Daughters of these couples show less sexual restraint than those of hetero couples.
* Children of these couples are more likely to have same-sex encounters, but there is no indication that they will ultimately identify as gay or lesbian. (And so what if there were?)
* Lesbian mothers are likely to be greatly involved in the lives of their children and have a higher synchronization of parenting styles with their partners than do heterosexual parents.

Perhaps most importantly, “These studies find no significant differences between children of lesbian and heterosexual mothers in anxiety, depression, self-esteem and numerous other measures of social and psychological adjustment,” Stacey and Biblarz wrote.



Don’t worry about it. Reading never hurt anyone.
[This message was edited Fri Apr 11 15:09:33 PDT 2003 by Lammastide]

i can't speak from experience..but i come from a family with two heterosexual parents & i got plenty of childhood scars...

so i don't necessarily think having a gay parent is going to scar someone any more deeply than other things they are likely to encounter coming up..

there will always be situations where you are hurt, criticized, disappointed, taken advantage of, lied to, and made to feel in some way less than other people...these things leave scars regardless of your parents sexual orientation...

and you can have two seemingly 'normal' parents by societies standards and still resent them for not being 'as good as' other parents...or whatever..i think that's part of growing up...

it would be a challenge, but childhood is full of challenges...and such is life, right?

Lammastide, you're my hero!

Seriously, you made the post I wanted to make but couldn't/didn't find the time to. Brilliant info.

ps...this debate has stayed very respectful, i'm impressed!

endorphin74 said:

Oh believe me, I'll suffer for this distraction come Monday morning when I get to the office!

lammastide, i think you have a ton of good points and i am amazed at the time spent in explaining them all. I don't deny that there are many other factors contributing to the development of homosexuality (gay/straaight parenting is very possibly the least of these factors). I do not believe that sexuality is an inborne feature, though. There has been no proof of that, only speculation and guess work. Meanwhile scientists have discovered the human genome and many other personality/character traits directly correlated to geneology. I think with as much studying as there has been, a sexuality gene would have been discovered. If I am wrong about this then please send me the link to an article i can read that is based on scientific evidence, preferably from a medical/science journal. Just as i think children's actions and attitudes develop from their atmospheres and environment, I think there are many issues pointing to an environmental cause to sexuality, straight or gay. The maajority of the world is straight therefore the majority of influence in your formative and developing life is straaight influenced thus adding to the straight population. boys and girls do not know to be attracted to one another until they begin school, and see thee world around them, and are pretty much taught that this is the "proper" way. Many gay men i know have had terrible relationships with their fathers (well before knowing they were gay), were insecure in childhood (before sexuality was even an issue), were picked on by class bullies, etc. Again, i'm speaking in generalities so there are plenty of exceptions to this. I am going by articles I've read from the american psychological association as well as by the experience of myself and many gay men i'm friends with.

I am not one to believe in coincidence, so the fact that so many of such a small population (i'm talking about homosexuals here) share similar experiences speaks volumes. I don't pretend to know for sure...i mean even science doesn't know for sure. But it seems most honest and sensible, to me at least, that most behaviour patterns are learned...even if we don't remember learning them. i just happen to think that sexuality is indeed a behaviour pattern.

Good thread, this.

Good read.