XxAxX said:

peedub its a beautiful day and you're stirring the shit here on my Stan Lee appreciation thread. Aint going to argue with you!!! But, suggest you find another thread to troll.

not trying to stir shit, just want to make sure that credit is applied where it's due.

stan lee is quite the character (possibly his own best creation, as kpowers suggests), but he is absolutely not responsible for the creation of the above mentioned characters. strategic marketing would have you believe otherwise; resulting, sadly, in the actual creative geniuses being overlooked. there has been an active, conscious campaign to make this happen. it's not really arguable.

by all means, adore stan lee with all your heart; but to suggest he is a genius for his contributions to the creation of the characters of the marvel universe (as you and emma and purplethunder3121 have in the first 3 posts in this thread) is misguided.

kpowers said:

I'd definitely agree about the animated shows. The 90's Batman cartoon is one of the best TV shows, animated or otherwise, ever made.

I'm not so sure about the live action shows though. Granted, I haven't watched Arrow or The Flash yet but I got about 5 episodes into Supergirl and I just couldn't get on board with it. I watched Smallville religiously when it first aired but when I see repeats of it I can't believe I actually got through the whole thing. It would have been better had they done five 12 episode seasons of "Smallville", then another five seasons of "Metropolis", with Superman instead of "the red/blue blur". I do like Gotham but every time it's on the verge of becoming a great show something happens which holds it back. My favourite superhero related TV shows are Marvel. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Agents of Shield. In that order.

EmmaMcG said:

kpowers said:

DC is better in TV shows and in Cartoons/Animated series.

I'd definitely agree about the animated shows. The 90's Batman cartoon is one of the best TV shows, animated or otherwise, ever made. I'm not so sure about the live action shows though. Granted, I haven't watched Arrow or The Flash yet but I got about 5 episodes into Supergirl and I just couldn't get on board with it. I watched Smallville religiously when it first aired but when I see repeats of it I can't believe I actually got through the whole thing. It would have been better had they done five 12 episode seasons of "Smallville", then another five seasons of "Metropolis", with Superman instead of "the red/blue blur". I do like Gotham but every time it's on the verge of becoming a great show something happens which holds it back. My favourite superhero related TV shows are Marvel. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Agents of Shield. In that order.

peedub said:

i challenge anyone to name an enduring character that stan lee has created without the names jack kirby or steve ditko attached...here's one...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripperella

Hawkeye
Black Widow

Falcon

Captain Mar-Vell

She Hulk

The Kingpin

EmmaMcG said:

kpowers said:

DC is better in TV shows and in Cartoons/Animated series.

I'd definitely agree about the animated shows. The 90's Batman cartoon is one of the best TV shows, animated or otherwise, ever made. I'm not so sure about the live action shows though. Granted, I haven't watched Arrow or The Flash yet but I got about 5 episodes into Supergirl and I just couldn't get on board with it. I watched Smallville religiously when it first aired but when I see repeats of it I can't believe I actually got through the whole thing. It would have been better had they done five 12 episode seasons of "Smallville", then another five seasons of "Metropolis", with Superman instead of "the red/blue blur". I do like Gotham but every time it's on the verge of becoming a great show something happens which holds it back. My favourite superhero related TV shows are Marvel. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Agents of Shield. In that order.

WTF????????? You need to watch those. Flash runs circles around those marvel shows you mentioned (Yes pun intended). Supergirl kicks but. Gotham I say is the best. Like I said before about Smallvile, first 5 years should have been Smallvile, last 5 years should have been Metropolis. My one complaint about Arrow are the flashbacks. DC legends of Tomorrow is cool, get to see more heroes of the DC universe.

peedub said:

XxAxX said:

peedub its a beautiful day and you're stirring the shit here on my Stan Lee appreciation thread. Aint going to argue with you!!! But, suggest you find another thread to troll.

not trying to stir shit, just want to make sure that credit is applied where it's due.

stan lee is quite the character (possibly his own best creation, as kpowers suggests), but he is absolutely not responsible for the creation of the above mentioned characters. strategic marketing would have you believe otherwise; resulting, sadly, in the actual creative geniuses being overlooked. there has been an active, conscious campaign to make this happen. it's not really arguable.

by all means, adore stan lee with all your heart; but to suggest he is a genius for his contributions to the creation of the characters of the marvel universe (as you and emma and purplethunder3121 have in the first 3 posts in this thread) is misguided.

Love Jack Kirby (who also worked at DC), deserves his own thread

sexton said:

Hawkeye
Black Widow

Falcon

Captain Mar-Vell

She Hulk

The Kingpin

all introduced as supporting characters to already established jack kirby (steve ditko in the case of the kingpin) creations...captain marvel being especially dubious, considering the legal impetus of that character's origin.

peedub said:

sexton said:

Hawkeye
Black Widow

Falcon

Captain Mar-Vell

She Hulk

The Kingpin

all introduced as supporting characters to already established jack kirby (steve ditko in the case of the kingpin) creations...captain marvel being especially dubious, considering the legal impetus of that character's origin.

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did not create these characters.

sexton said:

peedub said:

all introduced as supporting characters to already established jack kirby (steve ditko in the case of the kingpin) creations...captain marvel being especially dubious, considering the legal impetus of that character's origin.

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did not create these characters.

nor is it my contention that they did; only that those characters would not stand on their own without the foundation that kirby and ditko built.

peedub said:

sexton said:

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did not create these characters.

nor is it my contention that they did; only that those characters would not stand on their own without the foundation that kirby and ditko built.

You asked a question and I gave you a correct answer. EVERY Marvel Character created after the early 60s is based on the foundation that Kirby, Ditko and Stan Lee built.

While I agree it's correct to give Kirby and Ditko a larger percentage of the credit for these creations, to give Stan Lee no credit at all would be an equal slight.

sexton said:

You asked a question and I gave you a correct answer. EVERY Marvel Character created after the early 60s is based on the foundation that Kirby, Ditko and Stan Lee built.

While I agree it's correct to give Kirby and Ditko a larger percentage of the credit for these creations, to give Stan Lee no credit at all would be an equal slight.

i respectfully disagree...knowing the track records of all 3 individuals, i'm inclined to believe that stan lee had little to no input in the actual creation process; and there's plenty of information to support that. his job was to approve/disapprove submissions for publication and to create a brand for marvel comics. any credit he's due for campy dialogue and effective marketing should not cross the line into 'creative comics genius' territory. he simply did not create the characters and concepts that are the foundation of the marvel universe (cinematic or otherwise).

the superhero comics industry is rife with exploitation of creators, with jack kirby and steve ditko possibly the most glaring examples. there're decades of a quagmire of legal battles and he said/he said dispute surrounding them, and the sad fact is that stan lee is a household name while jack kirby and steve ditko are ridiculously anonymous.

peedub said:

sexton said:

You asked a question and I gave you a correct answer. EVERY Marvel Character created after the early 60s is based on the foundation that Kirby, Ditko and Stan Lee built.

While I agree it's correct to give Kirby and Ditko a larger percentage of the credit for these creations, to give Stan Lee no credit at all would be an equal slight.

i respectfully disagree...knowing the track records of all 3 individuals, i'm inclined to believe that stan lee had little to no input in the actual creation process; and there's plenty of information to support that. his job was to approve/disapprove submissions for publication and to create a brand for marvel comics. any credit he's due for campy dialogue and effective marketing should not cross the line into 'creative comics genius' territory. he simply did not create the characters and concepts that are the foundation of the marvel universe (cinematic or otherwise).

the superhero comics industry is rife with exploitation of creators, with jack kirby and steve ditko possibly the most glaring examples. there're decades of a quagmire of legal battles and he said/he said dispute surrounding them, and the sad fact is that stan lee is a household name while jack kirby and steve ditko are ridiculously anonymous.

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko appreciation thread ---> http://prince.org/msg/100/441469

peedub said:

sexton said:

You asked a question and I gave you a correct answer. EVERY Marvel Character created after the early 60s is based on the foundation that Kirby, Ditko and Stan Lee built.

While I agree it's correct to give Kirby and Ditko a larger percentage of the credit for these creations, to give Stan Lee no credit at all would be an equal slight.

i respectfully disagree...knowing the track records of all 3 individuals, i'm inclined to believe that stan lee had little to no input in the actual creation process; and there's plenty of information to support that. his job was to approve/disapprove submissions for publication and to create a brand for marvel comics. any credit he's due for campy dialogue and effective marketing should not cross the line into 'creative comics genius' territory. he simply did not create the characters and concepts that are the foundation of the marvel universe (cinematic or otherwise).

the superhero comics industry is rife with exploitation of creators, with jack kirby and steve ditko possibly the most glaring examples. there're decades of a quagmire of legal battles and he said/he said dispute surrounding them, and the sad fact is that stan lee is a household name while jack kirby and steve ditko are ridiculously anonymous.

Without any real proof, an inclination to believe is all anyone has. If you trust everything you read then Jack Kirby created Spider-Man all by himself too leaving Steve Ditko out in the cold regarding the genesis of Marvel's most famous superhero. And if Jack is wrong about that then what else could he have remembered incorrectly?

We'll never truthfully know how much/little Stan Lee contributed to the creation of these characters.

kpowers said:

EmmaMcG said:

kpowers said: I'd definitely agree about the animated shows. The 90's Batman cartoon is one of the best TV shows, animated or otherwise, ever made. I'm not so sure about the live action shows though. Granted, I haven't watched Arrow or The Flash yet but I got about 5 episodes into Supergirl and I just couldn't get on board with it. I watched Smallville religiously when it first aired but when I see repeats of it I can't believe I actually got through the whole thing. It would have been better had they done five 12 episode seasons of "Smallville", then another five seasons of "Metropolis", with Superman instead of "the red/blue blur". I do like Gotham but every time it's on the verge of becoming a great show something happens which holds it back. My favourite superhero related TV shows are Marvel. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Agents of Shield. In that order.

WTF????????? You need to watch those. Flash runs circles around those marvel shows you mentioned (Yes pun intended). Supergirl kicks but. Gotham I say is the best. Like I said before about Smallvile, first 5 years should have been Smallvile, last 5 years should have been Metropolis. My one complaint about Arrow are the flashbacks. DC legends of Tomorrow is cool, get to see more heroes of the DC universe.

Supergirl is Super-Cheesy...but she's also Super-Cute, so I keep watching. The Flash is the BOMB...you need to start watching that ASAP!!!