https://store.samhsa.gov/...A-3715.pdf

https://www.mind.org.uk/m...m-2011.pdf

XxAxX said:

Ace said:

Robin Quivers did an Ayahuasca ceremony with a Peruvian shaman. It "(fixed her) life up" in the following ways:

- She vomited and shit her pants at the same time.

- She developed cancer.

Ayahuasca is a hallucinogen that has potentially long-lasting negative psychological effects. Also:

"The ayahuasca community has a collection of well-known horror stories: the German woman who returned from Peru with a report of being sexually assaulted by her 'shaman'. The two French citizens who died during their trip — one from a heart attack, the other from a likely interaction with his prescription medications. The worst, though...is the story of an 18-year-old Californian named Kyle Nolan.

"Nolan set out for the Shimbre Shamanic Center, a Peruvian ayahuasca lodge run by a shaman calling himself Mancoluto, in August 2012. When Nolan didn't show up for his flight home, his worried parents went to Peru to find him. At first, Mancoluto said that Nolan had taken off in the middle of the night, but his body later was found in a grave on the center's property, and the shaman confessed to having buried him."

.

with all due respect, no one was advising nonames to take chances on traveling to a remote location to participate ritually in a dangerously unsafe vomit stained tent in south america. if you've studied the topic, you will know that journey quests are a very real thing, not to be mocked or mistaken for cheap tourist attractions.

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you recommended psychiatry while trashing ayahuasca. however, many unhelpful anti-depression drugs that are equally deserving of criticism are routinely prescribed for the masses, with long-term negative effects on brain chemistry. just because the profit-driven pharmas say we should take that, doesn't mean it's good. thanks for listening

Based on my reading, this is dangerous hokum and, therefore, should be mocked. Ceaselessly.

As for there being "many unhelpful anti-depression drugs that are equally deserving of criticism", I am not aware of a one, myself. Now, some of them may be unhelpful without accompanying talk-therapy from a good psychiatrist and/or the correct dosage. Some of them may be unhelpful if the patient does not take them as directed. Some patients may respond to certain anti-depressants better than others. But I am not aware of any modern-day anti-depressant (i.e. SSRI) that is inherently "unhelpful".

What are these "long-term negative effects on brain chemistry" you speak of? Where is that coming from?

And a good doctor does not prescribe medication to line the pockets of "profit-driven pharmas". He or she does so because they've done the due diligence and believe that the medication they are prescribing can help their patient.

I always find it highly ironic when people who are cynical about Western medicine (which is as sound as medicine comes in this world) are at the same time willing to dive headlong into potentially dangerous "alternative therapies", based on nothing but highly anecdotal "evidence" of their efficacy. Someone explain that to me.

NorthC said:

Everyone who considers taking ayahuasca should do their research. Then you will find you should not use it when you're taking medication. It is not something to be undertaken lightly. Vomiting is pretty normal, everybody does it, it's part of the cleansing. (Vomiting and shitting at the same time can happen, but is unusual.) Physically it is not a fun experience, but it does open your mind. And yes, it has long lasting effects, that's the entire idea behind it. There is such a thing as ayahuasca tourism and there are of course going to be people taking advantage of that. Everybody can call themselves a shaman and brew something. Yes, there are some untrustworthy types. How to avoid those? By informing yourself. No one I talked to ever had a bad experience. I was at a place called Kapitari, whose owner Don Lucho is a traditional healer with a vast knowledge of medicinal plants. And a very kind person on top of that. Check www.kapitari.org and you will not find one negative review.

So you're saying that a website administered by the business itself does not feature any negative reviews?

"It's part of the cleansing". The cleansing of what, exactly?

"It...open(s) your mind". To what, exactly?

Robin went to a 'trustworthy' type who was highly recommended by other...er..."seekers". The "long lasting" [sic] profound insight to which her "opened" mind led her? 'This world is...bullshit!'

People used to have similar beliefs about LSD. Look how that turned out.

dJJ said:

Ace said:

Personally, I always recommend a psychiatrist over a psychologist.

Why do you prefer a psychiatrist?

Is it because of the medication they can prescribe?

That's a bonus.

A psychiatrist is a doctor. A psychologist's qualifications can be a lot dicier.

Frankly, I'd rather put my welfare into the hands of someone who had the intelligence and discipline to graduate medical school.

Ace said:

XxAxX said:

.

with all due respect, no one was advising nonames to take chances on traveling to a remote location to participate ritually in a dangerously unsafe vomit stained tent in south america. if you've studied the topic, you will know that journey quests are a very real thing, not to be mocked or mistaken for cheap tourist attractions.

.

you recommended psychiatry while trashing ayahuasca. however, many unhelpful anti-depression drugs that are equally deserving of criticism are routinely prescribed for the masses, with long-term negative effects on brain chemistry. just because the profit-driven pharmas say we should take that, doesn't mean it's good. thanks for listening

Based on my reading, this is dangerous hokum and, therefore, should be mocked. Ceaselessly.

As for there being "many unhelpful anti-depression drugs that are equally deserving of criticism", I am not aware of a one, myself. Now, some of them may be unhelpful without accompanying talk-therapy from a good psychiatrist and/or the correct dosage. Some of them may be unhelpful if the patient does not take them as directed. Some patients may respond to certain anti-depressants better than others. But I am not aware of any modern-day anti-depressant (i.e. SSRI) that is inherently "unhelpful".

What are these "long-term negative effects on brain chemistry" you speak of? Where is that coming from?

And a good doctor does not prescribe medication to line the pockets of "profit-driven pharmas". He or she does so because they've done the due diligence and believe that the medication they are prescribing can help their patient.

I always find it highly ironic when people who are cynical about Western medicine (which is as sound as medicine comes in this world) are at the same time willing to dive headlong into potentially dangerous "alternative therapies", based on nothing but highly anecdotal "evidence" of their efficacy. Someone explain that to me.

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gladly. i'm a paralegal who has worked on medical malpractice cases for over twenty years. i have a wealth of professional knowledge of medical *mistakes*, up to and including cases i've worked on involving medical errors, misconduct of medical professionals, sexual abuse cases, prescription abuse cases and such.

.

so i have first-hand knowledge that what you call western medicine is not infallible. i've seen the creepy, irresponsible side of medical practice.

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above you call another culture's religious and medical tradition 'hokum'. i guess i'll refrain from commenting on your ethnocentrism and just say i strongly disagree. i'd like to add - please refrain from mocking that which you do not understand. and since you call it all hokum, well, back full circle hey.

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the negative long term effects i speak of relating to prescription anti-depressant drugs include the fact that 1) there are quite a few people whose condition has not at all been improved by taking depression medication, but rather declined instead; 2) life long drug dependency should never be the norm with respect to treatment and yet those who attempt withdrawal from this type of prescription often suffer withdrawal and worsened symptoms; and 3) serotonin reuptake inhibitors just plain are not for everyone.

.

not sure if you are aware of this, but there have been some interesting documentaries in the past year about the over-prescription of depression medication by psychiatrists who are paid schills for big pharma and who receive kickbacks from sales of drugs. obviously not all doctors are corrupt but huge numbers of them are.

.

but hey, this thread is not about whether you and i agree on this issue. i simply offered my opinion in response to the OP.

.

you then came along and (check yourself) responded to everyone's individual posts, giving your personal seal of approval, or not. wow.

.

at any rate our disagreement shouldn't burden the topic. in the interests of brevity i'll just say agree to disagree

That's weird. The OP makes one post only and then disappears. I never know what to make of people like that. Hope they're okay. But it's still weird.

morningsong said:

morningsong said:

XxAxX said:

Ace said:

Based on my reading, this is dangerous hokum and, therefore, should be mocked. Ceaselessly.

As for there being "many unhelpful anti-depression drugs that are equally deserving of criticism", I am not aware of a one, myself. Now, some of them may be unhelpful without accompanying talk-therapy from a good psychiatrist and/or the correct dosage. Some of them may be unhelpful if the patient does not take them as directed. Some patients may respond to certain anti-depressants better than others. But I am not aware of any modern-day anti-depressant (i.e. SSRI) that is inherently "unhelpful".

What are these "long-term negative effects on brain chemistry" you speak of? Where is that coming from?

And a good doctor does not prescribe medication to line the pockets of "profit-driven pharmas". He or she does so because they've done the due diligence and believe that the medication they are prescribing can help their patient.

I always find it highly ironic when people who are cynical about Western medicine (which is as sound as medicine comes in this world) are at the same time willing to dive headlong into potentially dangerous "alternative therapies", based on nothing but highly anecdotal "evidence" of their efficacy. Someone explain that to me.

.

gladly. i'm a paralegal who has worked on medical malpractice cases for over twenty years. i have a wealth of professional knowledge of medical *mistakes*, up to and including cases i've worked on involving medical errors, misconduct of medical professionals, sexual abuse cases, prescription abuse cases and such.

.

so i have first-hand knowledge that what you call western medicine is not infallible.

I didn't say it's infallible. I said it's the best we have.

above you call another culture's religious and medical tradition 'hokum'.

I believe all religion is hokum. And, yes - I believe that taking ayahuasca as 'medicine' for the mind is also hokum.

i guess i'll refrain from commenting on your ethnocentrism and just say i strongly disagree.

There is no ethnocentrism to comment on.

i'd like to add - please refrain from mocking that which you do not understand.

What do I not understand?

there are quite a few people whose condition has not at all been improved by taking depression medication, but rather declined instead

"Quite a few"? Can you point me in the direction of those studies?

life long drug dependency should never be the norm with respect to treatment and yet those who attempt withdrawal from this type of prescription often suffer withdrawal and worsened symptoms

Who said anything about "life long [sic] drug dependency"? And where are you getting this "often" from?

Anyone who is weaned properly from these kind of medications will not experience anything more than very minor withdrawal symptoms. As for "worsened symptoms"? I suppose that if you dump somebody off anti-depressants who has not had proper talk-therapy - and who is not monitored - I guess it's possible that their symptoms could worsen. But no good doctor is going to do that.

not sure if you are aware of this, but there have been some interesting documentaries in the past year about the over-prescription of depression medication by psychiatrists who are paid schills for big pharma and who receive kickbacks from sales of drugs. obviously not all doctors are corrupt but huge numbers of them are.

"Huge numbers of them"? Care to share those stats?

you then came along and (check yourself) responded to everyone's individual posts, giving your personal seal of approval, or not. wow.

"Check yourself"? What is that supposed to mean?

Out of concern for the OP, I offered my opinion as to what I felt was good and bad advice here. You object to that?

You set up straw man arguments and back your positions with super-anecdotal "evidence" that suggests that the odd, improperly administered exception invalidates the whole.

In short, your argument seems to be 'There are some shitty doctors out there. Ergo, you shouldn't trust any of them. On the other hand, you should trust a "shaman" and ingest an unregulated hallucinogen because...well...anecdotal reports!'

NorthC said:

I don't want to start an endless debate about the pros and cons of ayahuasca and certainly not with someone who has no experience other than reading some stories on the net.

Then are you not saying, 'Trust me: I took it and it works'? And are you not allowing for the fact that your perception of this substance's benefits could be a placebo effect?

I'm not going to answer questions about cleansing and opening your mind to someone who's not interested anyway.

Trust me when I say I am very interested to hear your answers. So fire away.

Plus, I really fail to see why there should be a conflict between modern and traditional medicine. Both can be helpful. [Edited 11/11/15 14:20pm][/b [b][Edited 11/11/15 14:27pm]

Any "traditional medicine" practices that have been scientifically proven to be helpful have been embraced by "modern" medicine. The conflict comes in when charlatans peddle snake oil (which I believe ayahuasca to be ).

nonames said:

I don't necessarily want to take medication if it can be avoided

May I ask why?

nonames said:

morningsong said:

That's weird. The OP makes one post only and then disappears. I never know what to make of people like that. Hope they're okay. But it's still weird.

Hi. I have not disappeared, I have read all of your responses and replied to a few private messages or orgnotes. It is just very difficult for me to talk about this, even hidden behind the anonymity of the Internet. I really appreciate all the kind words that I have received, some I found more helpful than others, but regardless of that I am moved by the people who took the time to offer their support and advice to someone they don't actually know. About whether I am alright or no - well, nothing has really changed. Some days are better than others, but it is still the same. The fact is that I am alone and I can't see that changing any time soon. I am seriously considering seeing a psychologist or some kind of therapist - I don't necessarily want to take medication if it can be avoided, but talking to someone will hopefully help. Again, I find it difficult to write about it, so please don't take it personally if I don't reply. I am not trolling, and do appreciate the kind words. Thank you all for your concern. [Edited 11/11/15 15:00pm]

i sincerely hope you find an approach which works for you. anything that helps you is worth considering. hang in there

• the main idea that comes 2 mind is 2 exercise your imagination more. imagine you are looking out from behind the face of other people or creatures. close your eyes and imagine you're in the best place you can think of, noticing each detail. stuff like that. imagination is the source of change.

nonames said:

morningsong said:

That's weird. The OP makes one post only and then disappears. I never know what to make of people like that. Hope they're okay. But it's still weird.

Hi. I have not disappeared, I have read all of your responses and replied to a few private messages or orgnotes. It is just very difficult for me to talk about this, even hidden behind the anonymity of the Internet. I really appreciate all the kind words that I have received, some I found more helpful than others, but regardless of that I am moved by the people who took the time to offer their support and advice to someone they don't actually know. About whether I am alright or no - well, nothing has really changed. Some days are better than others, but it is still the same. The fact is that I am alone and I can't see that changing any time soon. I am seriously considering seeing a psychologist or some kind of therapist - I don't necessarily want to take medication if it can be avoided, but talking to someone will hopefully help. Again, I find it difficult to write about it, so please don't take it personally if I don't reply. I am not trolling, and do appreciate the kind words. Thank you all for your concern. [Edited 11/11/15 15:00pm]

Professional help is a wise decision if you go.

nonames said:

morningsong said:

That's weird. The OP makes one post only and then disappears. I never know what to make of people like that. Hope they're okay. But it's still weird.

Hi. I have not disappeared, I have read all of your responses and replied to a few private messages or orgnotes. It is just very difficult for me to talk about this, even hidden behind the anonymity of the Internet. I really appreciate all the kind words that I have received, some I found more helpful than others, but regardless of that I am moved by the people who took the time to offer their support and advice to someone they don't actually know. About whether I am alright or no - well, nothing has really changed. Some days are better than others, but it is still the same. The fact is that I am alone and I can't see that changing any time soon. I am seriously considering seeing a psychologist or some kind of therapist - I don't necessarily want to take medication if it can be avoided, but talking to someone will hopefully help. Again, I find it difficult to write about it, so please don't take it personally if I don't reply. I am not trolling, and do appreciate the kind words. Thank you all for your concern. [Edited 11/11/15 15:00pm]

.

If you do decide to see a professional, please keep in mind that you are the one in control. What I mean by this is that if you don't feel comfortable with a professional, then you do not have to continue seeing them. Shop around and find someone that you feel comfortable (and safe) to talk to. Being able to talk about your feelings does help tremendously, especially if you can find someone that you really mesh with. And again, please keep in mind that you aren't alone. I know it feels that way, and it's hard to feel any other way, but you do have people that love and care for you and that is more precious than you know right now.

.

I just recently went through a divorce (though we've been separated for 3 years), and I understand that feeling of being alone. I live in an area in which the only people I know are the people I work with, my ex and his family, and my kids. The rest of my family and people I know and feel comfortable with are halfway across the country. And I know my situation will not change any time soon. But I'm okay with it because right now I want to just focus on myself, my kids, and my career.

prittypriss said:

Shop around and find someone that you feel comfortable (and safe) to talk to. Being able to talk about your feelings does help tremendously, especially if you can find someone that you really mesh with.

nonames said:

morningsong said:

That's weird. The OP makes one post only and then disappears. I never know what to make of people like that. Hope they're okay. But it's still weird.

Hi. I have not disappeared, I have read all of your responses and replied to a few private messages or orgnotes. It is just very difficult for me to talk about this, even hidden behind the anonymity of the Internet. I really appreciate all the kind words that I have received, some I found more helpful than others, but regardless of that I am moved by the people who took the time to offer their support and advice to someone they don't actually know. About whether I am alright or no - well, nothing has really changed. Some days are better than others, but it is still the same. The fact is that I am alone and I can't see that changing any time soon. I am seriously considering seeing a psychologist or some kind of therapist - I don't necessarily want to take medication if it can be avoided, but talking to someone will hopefully help. Again, I find it difficult to write about it, so please don't take it personally if I don't reply. I am not trolling, and do appreciate the kind words. Thank you all for your concern. [Edited 11/11/15 15:00pm]

It's not easy to be alone. It's a challenge and I hope you will find a way to tackle the challenge.


And there is nothing wrong with feeling like that. That is life.

Life is not one big party of happiness. It's a lot of challenges and dealing with them. Everybody has their own unique challenge and has to come to terms with their own character and life.


Besides the book Feeling Good by Dr. Burns, I also have a positive experience with the book

"Taming the Tiger:Tibetan Teachings for Improving Daily Life" by Akong Tulku Rinpoche



You are not the only one who feels disconnected or lonely.

Thank God, I have a dear cat who I can bond with

On a related note, Whoopi Goldberg has just published a book that (based on the iBooks sample and her interview on Howard Stern) pretty much echoes what I've been saying about relationships and happiness for years now.

Ordering it now!

^ @ RUN! that's advice i've actually given to my friends (if they ask me).

.

someone already said above this but i was gonna add: working on a project is one of the best ways to cheer up, imo. buy scrap metal and make wind chimes, take old sweaters and make a stuffed person doll, bead your favorite jacket write a book, write a song, draw pictures. things of that nature can be a great lift up.

[Edited 11/17/15 2:47am]

Ace said:

daingermouz2020 said:

Ace said:

It used to anger me, too. Now I know that they were right.

I am sorry to hear that you are feeling like this.

Have you ever tried psychiatry?

just curious In what way did you determine that the people saying how fortunate /blessed/lucky were right?

I have my health. I have a roof above my head. I have food on my table. I have good friends and family. I was born in a first-world country... I am way, way luckier than many, many people on this planet.

I am also lucky that I found my way to a place where I'm responsible for my own happiness at all times. And I've been very, very happy for several years now - and don't see that changing.

Society will have you believe that you can't be happy unless you're coupled up. That's nonsense. In fact - in the long run - I now feel it probably decreases your chances at it.

Ace said:

daingermouz2020 said:

Ace said: just curious In what way did you determine that the people saying how fortunate /blessed/lucky were right?

I have my health. I have a roof above my head. I have food on my table. I have good friends and family. I was born in a first-world country... I am way, way luckier than many, many people on this planet.

I am also lucky that I found my way to a place where I'm responsible for my own happiness at all times. And I've been very, very happy for several years now - and don't see that changing.

Society will have you believe that you can't be happy unless you're coupled up. That's nonsense. In fact - in the long run - I now feel it probably decreases your chances at it.

For me that's most definitely true and I don't give a shit if society tells me that or not - it's the way I feel. For me happiness is being with somebody I love on my side. Because that's what makes life worth living for me. Having to live without that makes life incredibly hard for me personally.

I cannot really give much advice, but wish you all the very best ! And try the pieces of good advice you have been given here that you think might be helpful for you and don't be disappointed if you still don't feel better, because there are - sometimes very long - periods in life where you might feel the way you feel and there is not always a "cure" that can help. But keep trying to find the way to the end of the tunnel and keep in mind life can change any second for the better, so don't give up hope !

Serious said:

Ace said:

I have my health. I have a roof above my head. I have food on my table. I have good friends and family. I was born in a first-world country... I am way, way luckier than many, many people on this planet.

I am also lucky that I found my way to a place where I'm responsible for my own happiness at all times. And I've been very, very happy for several years now - and don't see that changing.

Society will have you believe that you can't be happy unless you're coupled up. That's nonsense. In fact - in the long run - I now feel it probably decreases your chances at it.

For me that's most definitely true and I don't give a shit if society tells me that or not - it's the way I feel. For me happiness is being with somebody I love on my side. Because that's what makes life worth living for me. Having to live without that makes life incredibly hard for me personally.

Have you ever considered how you came to feel that way?

Ace said:

Serious said:

For me that's most definitely true and I don't give a shit if society tells me that or not - it's the way I feel. For me happiness is being with somebody I love on my side. Because that's what makes life worth living for me. Having to live without that makes life incredibly hard for me personally.

Have you ever considered how you came to feel that way?

My own life experience: nothing better than being with somebody you love and nothing worse than not being. Whatever is sad in life when your special someone gives you a hug life ain't so sad anymore and there is a good reason to pull through. Not to mention that there are certain things in life that I completely have to go without when I am not in a relationship like having sex or having somebody to hold me in his arms when I fall asleep . But this thread is not about me and my struggles.....

Ace said:

dJJ said:

Why do you prefer a psychiatrist?

Is it because of the medication they can prescribe?

That's a bonus.

A psychiatrist is a doctor. A psychologist's qualifications can be a lot dicier.

Frankly, I'd rather put my welfare into the hands of someone who had the intelligence and discipline to graduate medical school.

It's a personal choice, I guess.

I prefer somebody who received education about psychology for years, in stead of somebody who spend years of study into non-psych-related topics.

In the end I think it is especially important to feel save and challenged. Just having a nice chat with a nice counsellor/psychiatris/psychologist does not help. It's the combination of feeling safe and knowing that you do get challenged enough to really work on yourself and not hide into avoidance.

Serious said:

Ace said:

Have you ever considered how you came to feel that way?

My own life experience: nothing better than being with somebody you love and nothing worse than not being. Whatever is sad in life when your special someone gives you a hug life ain't so sad anymore and there is a good reason to pull through. Not to mention that there are certain things in life that I completely have to go without when I am not in a relationship like having sex or having somebody to hold me in his arms when I fall asleep . But this thread is not about me and my struggles.....

I understand what you are saying. But I do try to tackle that trap.

Robin Norwood her books have opened my eyes. The relationship addiction is truly an addiction, not love.


I notice that I still have to be careful not to give somebody else the power over my own happiness.

I feel that I'm growing and growing and that I'm becoming less dependent on the opinions of other people.

Life is great and sometimes a big challenge. For everybody. And I feel very gratefull, for that I was so fortunate to be born in a rich and safe country.


And eventhough I suffer from a Dysthyme Disorder, I work hard to make myself free from meds and care. It is my own responsebility to make sure I handle life in a way that is good for me.

That empowerment is huge.

I don't want somebody else to be responsible for how I feel. Of course, I miss fysical warmth from another human being. But, I have a wonderful cat, who has one thing on his mind; cuddling me.