Vegans I see all look sickly. I'm healthy and I inhale meat like Hannibal Lector.

never liked the word vegan; sounds like a fan of vegetables

let's say that I don't eat any kind of bird, and I'm not a fan of cow's steaks, but I like my bacon, ham, fish, milk/cheese, etc

[Edited 2/15/15 12:22pm]

MonsterZeroTwo said:

I’m a vegetarian who flirts with veganism on occasion. I went veggie slowly over a process of about 5 years. It really helped me ease into the diet, allowed me to try new things, learn how to cook and slowly my tastes changed.

I first stopped cooking meat at home, then rather naturally stopped ordering meat when I ate out (but didn’t refuse meat if I was served at someone’s house, etc.). At one point I realized it had been about a year since I’d eaten chicken, so I decided to declare I no longer ate fowl. Eventually I stopped eating all meat altogether. It’s been about 5 years now. I don’t remember the exact date as it was such a gradual process for me.

I’ve lately been slowly decreasing my consumption of eggs and dairy. I’ve stopped buying dairy milk and use soy, almond or coconut as alternatives. I’ve learned some vegan baking tricks to get rid of eggs as well, but I still eat them for breakfast once or twice a week. Cheese will be the toughest for me, but I’m lucky in that there are some good, locally-made vegan cheeses available where I live. I’ve been trying those out here and there.

My best advice is it doesn’t need to be an “all or nothing” approach. You don’t have to wake up tomorrow and be 100% vegan. You can start as simple as a few meals a week. Continue to study, look for recipes and experiment. Have fun. Enjoy the journey.

certain things may surprise u that contain animal products:

gelatin (bones)

gel caps on capsule-based supplements and medicines (unless they say vegan)

many dishes in restaurants -- even things like mashed potatoes -- contain chicken stock. Asking will usually get you an answer

some red dyes are made from insects (yes really)

many canned goods that u would think are veggie/vegan are not. For instance, some vegetable soups or bean dishes have been broth in them. At least the ingredients state so.

A lot of meat replacing products are made of soy beans. These are genetically manipulated and their effects have not been researched according valid standards. The researchers paid by the corporations will state that it's safe. Those who are independant have found results that indicate tumor growth as a consequence of the GM food.

So, if you are going vegan, make sure you don't eat yourself sick or death, avoid GM food. So, avoid soya as much as you can.

deepabove said:

dJJ said:

A lot of meat replacing products are made of soy beans. These are genetically manipulated and their effects have not been researched according valid standards. The researchers paid by the corporations will state that it's safe. Those who are independant have found results that indicate tumor growth as a consequence of the GM food.

So, if you are going vegan, make sure you don't eat yourself sick or death, avoid GM food. So, avoid soya as much as you can.

Now they are messing with apples. Frankenstein Food.

[Edited 2/17/15 3:22am]

dJJ said:

A lot of meat replacing products are made of soy beans. These are genetically manipulated and their effects have not been researched according valid standards. The researchers paid by the corporations will state that it's safe. Those who are independant have found results that indicate tumor growth as a consequence of the GM food.

So, if you are going vegan, make sure you don't eat yourself sick or death, avoid GM food. So, avoid soya as much as you can.

.

You can buy organic soya products. That will rule out GMOs.

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Btw, there's too much panic when it comes to the genetic manipulation of plants imo...

dJJ said:

A lot of meat replacing products are made of soy beans. These are genetically manipulated and their effects have not been researched according valid standards. The researchers paid by the corporations will state that it's safe. Those who are independant have found results that indicate tumor growth as a consequence of the GM food.

So, if you are going vegan, make sure you don't eat yourself sick or death, avoid GM food. So, avoid soya as much as you can.

Also, unfermented soy has a high phytic acid content. Many people do not respond well to this (gas and other digestive upset) - and it can actually make it more difficult to assimilate nutrients. And then there's the whole phytoestrogen issue with soy.

There are certain vitamins that are only found in animal foods (A, D, B-12 to name a few), so be prepared to supplement - and to supplement the right way. B-12 should be taken sublingually, because it is not easily assimilated in the digestive tract. (Even meat eaters have this issue. At a recent physical, tests showed that my B-12 was low even though I've never been a vegetarian.) Vitamins A and D are fat-soluble vitamins, so they are best taken with foods that contain fat.

[Edited 2/18/15 7:25am]

Genesia said:

There are certain vitamins that are only found in animal foods (A, D, B-12 to name a few), so be prepared to supplement - and to supplement the right way. B-12 should be taken sublingually, because it is not easily assimilated in the digestive tract. (Even meat eaters have this issue. At a recent physical, tests showed that my B-12 was low even though I've never been a vegetarian.) Vitamins A and D are fat-soluble vitamins, so they are best taken with foods that contain fat.

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Carotenoids are provitamins of vitamin A and are found in plants. Hence, vitamin A is normally not a major issue. With D and B12, the situation is indeed as described, and supplements are recommended for these if you want to go vegan.

.

However, if you look at the number of supplements in your local pharmacy, they have certainly not been made to support veganism, but because the diet of many meat-eaters is not that healthy.

You'll find plenty of testimonials by former vegans on the Internet who'll tell you it's not a good idea. As a former vegetarian I don't think these type of diets are a good idea at all.

Never, ever trust anyone's comments on the benefits of these type of diets unless they've successfully lived on them for a good number of years. I quit after about eight when I just had to admit to myself that it was causing serious damage inside my body (I won't speculate too much on its effects on my mental health, but those things tend to go together). The problem is that you won't usually notice the deficiencies until it's too late.

Please do some reading first on the more catastrophic experiences people have had especially with veganism and don't just ignore it all. Vegetarianism and veganism became popular as movements in the Western world during a period when people had not gotten their nutritional science right at all. The only justification for going on these type of diets is ethical as you really shouldn't believe in that "meat is bad for you, veggies are good for you" nonsense still in 2015.

It's up to you if you want to take the risks. There might be some differences between people with different type of genetic backgrounds on how well they are able to survive on such diets.

EmancipationLover said:

Genesia said:

There are certain vitamins that are only found in animal foods (A, D, B-12 to name a few), so be prepared to supplement - and to supplement the right way. B-12 should be taken sublingually, because it is not easily assimilated in the digestive tract. (Even meat eaters have this issue. At a recent physical, tests showed that my B-12 was low even though I've never been a vegetarian.) Vitamins A and D are fat-soluble vitamins, so they are best taken with foods that contain fat.

.

Carotenoids are provitamins of vitamin A and are found in plants. Hence, vitamin A is normally not a major issue. With D and B12, the situation is indeed as described, and supplements are recommended for these if you want to go vegan.

.

However, if you look at the number of supplements in your local pharmacy, they have certainly not been made to support veganism, but because the diet of many meat-eaters is not that healthy.

You're incorrect about vitamin A. You are right that carotenoids are vitamin A precursors that can be converted to vitamin A for use in the human body. However, the conversion is spotty at best (it takes roughly 20 parts of beta-carotene or other carotenoids with vitamin A action to create 1 part of true vitamin A) - and it is negatively affected by almost any non-ideal health condition you have. Eating too much sugar (which includes anything "white" like flour or potatoes) affects it. Stress affects it. Pregnancy affects it. Aging affects it.

Genesia said:

it takes roughly 20 parts of beta-carotene or other carotenoids with vitamin A action to create 1 part of true vitamin A) - and it is negatively affected by almost any non-ideal health condition you have. Eating too much sugar (which includes anything "white" like flour or potatoes) affects it.

.

Vegetables can contain quite a large amount of carotenoids though. In terms of retinol equivalents, carrots contain less than liver, but, for instance, much more than chicken or pork. On the other hand, liver contains quite a lot of pure vitamin A, which can accumulate in the human body (not to a positive effect). This goes as far as the liver of polar bears being toxic for humans, which is why the inuit have never eaten it as part of their traditional diet. In contrast, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing like a carotenoid overdose.

.

Btw, I have to doubt your numbers. The German Nutritional Society (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung) defines the daily need for a healthy adult to be 1 mg vitamin A or 2 mg beta-carotene, according to a quick search I have just made.

[Edited 2/18/15 12:29pm]

novabrkr said:

You'll find plenty of testimonials by former vegans on the Internet who'll tell you it's not a good idea. As a former vegetarian I don't think these type of diets are a good idea at all.

Never, ever trust anyone's comments on the benefits of these type of diets unless they've successfully lived on them for a good number of years. I quit after about eight when I just had to admit to myself that it was causing serious damage inside my body (I won't speculate too much on its effects on my mental health, but those things tend to go together). The problem is that you won't usually notice the deficiencies until it's too late.

Please do some reading first on the more catastrophic experiences people have had especially with veganism and don't just ignore it all. Vegetarianism and veganism became popular as movements in the Western world during a period when people had not gotten their nutritional science right at all. The only justification for going on these type of diets is ethical as you really shouldn't believe in that "meat is bad for you, veggies are good for you" nonsense still in 2015.

It's up to you if you want to take the risks. There might be some differences between people with different type of genetic backgrounds on how well they are able to survive on such diets.

.

To be honest, reports of or about individuals ("it works great for me" or "it's ruined my health") are not very informative in this context. What one needs is a scientific study (or even better a range of them) with significantly large groups of participants. Such studies have been conducted, and many of them point towards a meet-free diet as being advantageous. I suppose you are familiar with the "China study", which is quite a popular book in the veggie scene.

EmancipationLover said:

Genesia said:

it takes roughly 20 parts of beta-carotene or other carotenoids with vitamin A action to create 1 part of true vitamin A) - and it is negatively affected by almost any non-ideal health condition you have. Eating too much sugar (which includes anything "white" like flour or potatoes) affects it.

.

Vegetables can contain quite a large amount of carotenoids though. In terms of retinol equivalents, carrots contain less than liver, but, for instance, much more than chicken or pork. On the other hand, liver contains quite a lot of pure vitamin A, which can accumulate in the human body (not to a positive effect). This goes as far as the liver of polar bears being toxic for humans, which is why the inuit have never eaten it as part of their traditional diet. In contrast, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing like a carotenoid overdose.

.

Btw, I have to doubt your numbers. The German Nutritional Society (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung) defines the daily need for a healthy adult to be 1 mg vitamin A or 2 mg beta-carotene, according to a quick search I have just made.

[Edited 2/18/15 12:29pm]

.

I've just found an explanation for the differences in our numbers. The numbers I have cited seem to refer to supplemented beta-carotene, while one needs more dietary beta-carotene (due to its limited uptake). The number I have found for dietary beta-carotene now is a factor of 12 in the needed dose when compared to retinol. The factor is 24 for other carotenes though, which probably gives your factor 20 as an estimated average.

.

The current dietary reference intake seems to be 900 RAE, equivalent to roughly 11 mg dietary beta-carotene. 100 g of carrot contain 93% of the adult male RDA of vitamin A (via their high carotenoid content), for spinach it's 52%, for pumpkin 41%. In other words, a balanced vegan diet should not lead to a deficiency in vitamin A supply.

EmancipationLover said:

EmancipationLover said:

.

Vegetables can contain quite a large amount of carotenoids though. In terms of retinol equivalents, carrots contain less than liver, but, for instance, much more than chicken or pork. On the other hand, liver contains quite a lot of pure vitamin A, which can accumulate in the human body (not to a positive effect). This goes as far as the liver of polar bears being toxic for humans, which is why the inuit have never eaten it as part of their traditional diet. In contrast, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing like a carotenoid overdose.

.

Btw, I have to doubt your numbers. The German Nutritional Society (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung) defines the daily need for a healthy adult to be 1 mg vitamin A or 2 mg beta-carotene, according to a quick search I have just made.

[Edited 2/18/15 12:29pm]

.

I've just found an explanation for the differences in our numbers. The numbers I have cited seem to refer to supplemented beta-carotene, while one needs more dietary beta-carotene (due to its limited uptake). The number I have found for dietary beta-carotene now is a factor of 12 in the needed dose when compared to retinol. The factor is 24 for other carotenes though, which probably gives your factor 20 as an estimated average.

.

The current dietary reference intake seems to be 900 RAE, equivalent to roughly 11 mg dietary beta-carotene. 100 g of carrot contain 93% of the adult male RDA of vitamin A (via their high carotenoid content), for spinach it's 52%, for pumpkin 41%. In other words, a balanced vegan diet should not lead to a deficiency in vitamin A supply.

100g of carrots does not contain vitamin A! It contains vitamin A precursors, which are not the same thing.

You can eat a crap-ton of beta carotene and still be deficient in vitamin A. You are assuming perfect conversion, which almost never happens.

Genesia said:

100g of carrots does not contain vitamin A! It contains vitamin A precursors, which are not the same thing.

You can eat a crap-ton of beta carotene and still be deficient in vitamin A. You are assuming perfect conversion, which almost never happens.

.

I was referring to the retinol activity units (RAE) recommended by the US Institute of Medicine. It serves to compare equivalencies of retinoids and carotenoids. 1 µg RAE corresponds to 1 μg retinol, 2 μg of beta-carotene in oil, 12 μg of dietary beta-carotene, and 24 μg of the other dietary carotenoids (hence the factor 20, see above). I should have been more precise in my previous post, the numbers were percentages of RDA of RAE (not vitamin A), but as 1 µg RAE corresponds to 1 μg retinol anyway, that it a minor detail, actually.

.

Your assumed scenario of being vitamin-A-deficient in spite of a carotenoid-rich diet would require the oxidative conversion of the carotenoids to be slowed down next to zero on a permanent basis (or the uptake being lousy). This might be the rare case for certain individuals with severely disbalanced metabolism and super-poor uptake of lipophilic compounds, but it surely is not very likely for an average and otherwise healthy adult. In other words: if you cannot convert tons of dietary carotenoids into some retinol, then you have other severe problems than just a lack in supply with vitamin A.

.

Btw, most meats which are consumed do not contain that much parent vitamin A either. A raw carrot has ca. 850 µg RAE per 100 g, for chicken it is only 25 µg, pork comes in at 10 µg, beef at about 0 µg. Please remember, the officially recommended RAEs do already take into account that provitamin A is a generally much poorer source of vitamin A than the parent compound (see above). What is rich in vitamin A though is animal liver (ca. 7700 µg RAE per 100 g for beef, 4000 µg for chicken). Do you eat liver on a regular basis? I personally have eaten meat like a hugry lion for 35 years before becoming a vegetarian, but apart from some foie gras in France, I have avoided liver for the most part as I didn't like the taste. It surely is not the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of eating meat, is it?

EmancipationLover said:

novabrkr said:

You'll find plenty of testimonials by former vegans on the Internet who'll tell you it's not a good idea. As a former vegetarian I don't think these type of diets are a good idea at all.

Never, ever trust anyone's comments on the benefits of these type of diets unless they've successfully lived on them for a good number of years. I quit after about eight when I just had to admit to myself that it was causing serious damage inside my body (I won't speculate too much on its effects on my mental health, but those things tend to go together). The problem is that you won't usually notice the deficiencies until it's too late.

Please do some reading first on the more catastrophic experiences people have had especially with veganism and don't just ignore it all. Vegetarianism and veganism became popular as movements in the Western world during a period when people had not gotten their nutritional science right at all. The only justification for going on these type of diets is ethical as you really shouldn't believe in that "meat is bad for you, veggies are good for you" nonsense still in 2015.

It's up to you if you want to take the risks. There might be some differences between people with different type of genetic backgrounds on how well they are able to survive on such diets.

.

To be honest, reports of or about individuals ("it works great for me" or "it's ruined my health") are not very informative in this context. What one needs is a scientific study (or even better a range of them) with significantly large groups of participants. Such studies have been conducted, and many of them point towards a meet-free diet as being advantageous. I suppose you are familiar with the "China study", which is quite a popular book in the veggie scene.

I'm not sure if I want to spend too much time with these type of arguments. What you've written above is irrelevant from the perspective that a large number of people have had problems resulting from their vegetarian and vegan diets. They're informative enough in that sense.

There are just too many people that have had bad experiences with these things that dismissing it all together is just irrational. I can assure you that there will be never enough scientific data gathered on anything to convince the most hard-headed inviduals on what they should do.

I have not read the "China Study" and I doubt most people that refer to it as a piece of evidence supporting the benefits of vegetarian or vegan lifestyles have read it either. I'm under the impression that the arguments presented by the researchers themselves in it only hold water in case of processed foods, but that's just what I've been able to gather from the Internet myself. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if people in the veggie scene have jumped into far too big conclusions based on data that they don't know how to properly interpret.

There is no real science behind most people's decisions on becoming vegetarians or vegans. They go for it just because they think eating animals is wrong. The vague references to scientific studies seem to be just retroactive reasoning attempts for the completely personal choices they've already made. As I've already mentioned, more recent studies are not conducted with the same type of "meat is bad for you, veggies are good for you" bias as the ones done earlier. So many things have been turned around in nutritional science and that's a good thing.

As a former vegetarian with really bad experiences of it, I'd just like people to truly understand that there is no need take the risks associated with vegetarian and vegan diets. If you consider those risks to be be big enough, the simplest solution is not to become a vegetarian or a vegan in the first place.

That should be a no-brainer, but for so many, it doesn't seem to be that at all.

novabrkr said:

What you've written above is irrelevant from the perspective that a large number of people have had problems resulting from their vegetarian and vegan diets. They're informative enough in that sense.

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No, they're not "informative enough in that sense". All the info we get from them is that they claim that a vegetarian or vegan diet was bad for their health. I could name a range of celebs now who have claimed that a vegetarian or vegan diet was very good for their health (Bill Clinton or Alicia Silverstone, just to name two). What does that tell us? Not much.

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The only way to elucidate the effects of vegetarian or vegan diets on human health is to conduct scientific studies on the subject. That includes a large group of individuals and a very careful interpretation of data.

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Individual reports are important for the reporting individual, but not necessarily in the greater scheme of things. Former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt is an extremely active smoker (ca. 60 to 80 cigarettes per day), yet he turned 96 last december, and he still works (for one of Germany's most esteemed newspapers, "Die Zeit"). Does that tell us that smoking is recommendable? No, it doesn't. It is simply an individual report.

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Coming back to scientific studies, it has been proven quite thoroughly that the risk of cardiovascular deseases is reduced significantly for vegetarians and even more pronouncedly for vegans. Cardiovascular deseases are the number one cause of death in Western countries. The current data on cancer (the number two cause) is more spotty, but there are some hints that vegan diets might also be advantageous in that context. And let's not even get started on environmental issues...

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Btw, there is a new tendency in the vegan community which I would like to describe as "health-driven veganism". Germany's most famous vegan chef Attila Hildmann has made this health-driven approach the central aspect of his books (which is also why he is sometimes under attack from more ethically oriented vegans). It is also a key topic in Alicia Silverstone's books on vegan cooking, in which she claims that veganism has helped her to become slim and sporty again after being the fat girl in this awful Batman movie in the late 90s.

Meat costs more these day than veggies. And no food is safe these days...unless you grow it yourself from your old seed stock (I hate that stupid newbie term "heirloom" ).

Soaps? Vegan soaps?

Most soaps are made from vegetable fats...

just stay away from honey soaps (the honey part isn't vegan as you already know), goatmilk, cream, yogurt and tallow soaps.

Most castile soaps are made with olive oil and some may contain coconut oil... but any castile soap is great to use. They are noramlly gentle and great for dryer skin.

[Edited 2/22/15 15:47pm]

Not a vegan but a strict vegetarian (no animal flesh consumption, including ocean life forms).

I love dairy too much to give it up and get my cheese from a farm that treats its kine
ethically.

I'll eat a vegan.

duccichucka said:

Not a vegan but a strict vegetarian (no animal flesh consumption, including ocean life forms).

I love dairy too much to give it up and get my cheese from a farm that treats its kine
ethically.

.

The problem is that enzymes (rennet) from calf stomach are needed to make cheese. Hence, the killing of calfs is required to fabricate cheese. In principle, these enzymes can be replaced by microbial enzymes, but the taste of the cheese is influenced by this. The most reasonable alternative would be to express the rennet enzymes in genetically modified microorganisms (which is a standard procedure nowadays), but this would violate the standards of organic farming - because gene manipulation is seen as the mother of all evil, just by definition.

.

In other words: if you get your cheese from organic farming, it is pretty likely that some calfs were killed to make it. Sad, but true.

EmancipationLover said:

duccichucka said:

Not a vegan but a strict vegetarian (no animal flesh consumption, including ocean life forms).

I love dairy too much to give it up and get my cheese from a farm that treats its kine
ethically.

.

The problem is that enzymes (rennet) from calf stomach are needed to make cheese. Hence, the killing of calfs is required to fabricate cheese. In principle, these enzymes can be replaced by microbial enzymes, but the taste of the cheese is influenced by this. The most reasonable alternative would be to express the rennet enzymes in genetically modified microorganisms (which is a standard procedure nowadays), but this would violate the standards of organic farming - because gene manipulation is seen as the mother of all evil, just by definition.

.

In other words: if you get your cheese from organic farming, it is pretty likely that some calfs were killed to make it. Sad, but true.

The cheese I eat has vegetable derived rennet, so I'm all good. I'm mostly worried about how
cheese makers treat their livestock, and the farm that produces my cheese, again, treats them
ethically - no cow was slaughtered so that I can eat my pizza.

And I'm not a strict organic foods eater, so if I do come across cheese that has been "genetically
modified," I'm eating that bitch. I don't make enough money to live and eat organically only.

As for gene manipulation being seen as the mother of all evil, take that argument elsewhere, bro;
I'm all for it, if done ethically!