KingBAD said:

seems to me that all people have male and female in them all the time .. maybe different percentages of each or maybe certain typically gendered behaviors come out in specific situations .. i find the issue to be with a "this or that" culture that demands you pick one or the other .. i have never understood why gay men dress up as women .. then again I don't really like women who dress up like 'women/hookers' .. all the make up and high heels and all that seem kind of stupid .. i don't know why men want to look or act that way but I could guess it is because they identify more as a women and as such feel some strong need to look like a typical woman ..

if we had a culture that allowed more inbetween gender expression .. where a man could adopt effeminate appearance or behavior or a woman could be manly without having to be all of one or the other, i would guess those that are more inbetween would not feel like they had to go to some extreme, like surgery, to be who they are .. i don't understand the surgery and I don't understand the extremes to look and behave like the opposite sex of what one technically is .. but I do understand not identifying with the sex you were born as

obviously everyone is some percentage of hetero and homo and most people can be attracted to both sexes at times for various reasons .. not everybody wants to act on it but those who do cant really be blamed .. i do see the surgery as somewhat of an unneccessary extreme .. more of a way to fit in with a fucked up society that wont accept you blurred gender than truly a need to have a different body than what you are born with .. then again .. if i was born with 2 noses I might want to fit in a bit more

JustErin said:

The responses in this thread are un-fucking-believable. This place sure has changed.

What has happened on the Org?

I feel like I'm watching this unfold....

[img:$uid]http://i128.pho.../img:$uid]

AborshaClinique said:

KingBAD said:

Im starting to think your just trollling. Its sad really

KingBAD said:

AborshaClinique said:

KingBAD said: Im starting to think your just trollling. Its sad really

Falling for right wing propaganda like the "gay agenda" is about as sheepish as it gets.

Eh,. King Bad is 82 years old. He has been taught for years that homosexuality is wrong. People who are taught something for years and years won't just come around or accept it like that. My grandma and many others are kind of the same. I don't like that they think that way... but it's what they've believed in for deades. And you can't change deacades long believes over night you know?

Gunsnhalen said:

Eh,. King Bad is 82 years old.

What?

Gunsnhalen said:

AborshaClinique said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Eh,. King Bad is 82 years old. He has been taught for years that homosexuality is wrong. People who are taught something for years and years won't just come around or accept it like that. My grandma and many others are kind of the same. I don't like that they think that way... but it's what they've believed in for deades. And you can't change deacades long believes over night you know?

justification. If you are a thinking individual and you logically think things over you can make a change in your life. Some people are comfortable being privileged [Edited 6/14/14 22:18pm]

I'm not trying to justify. Just saying that he's the type of guy who won't change the way he thinks. It's btter to just ignore him

Despite what you think King B opinion is his post actually has some good info in it. He might not have a preference for homosexual culture, but its not like he said anything else out of line.

Nina B's post was also informative and well written.

LayzieKiddZ said:

Mental illness. Theres nothing wrong with being gay and liking what you like, but when you think youre something youre clearly not when you look in the mirror, youre mentally ill. Wouldnt be surprised if all these cases are because of flouride in the water and vaccinations and things making children more mentally ill.

This reaction is so stupid, it makes me sad.

Who are you to know what goes on in someone's mind?

This kind of thinking is what makes this world a bad place, saying that people who are different than you are mentally ill.

They said that about gay people years ago and still do in parts of the world

They looked gay people up because of their "mental illness".

And what did us bring that?

Did gay people go away?

No of course not.

What did go away in big parts of the world is the stupidity of some people and the way they think.

Now it's "there's is nothing wrong with being gay, but transgender....no, that's a mental illness".

damn...

nextedition said:

LayzieKiddZ said:

Mental illness. Theres nothing wrong with being gay and liking what you like, but when you think youre something youre clearly not when you look in the mirror, youre mentally ill. Wouldnt be surprised if all these cases are because of flouride in the water and vaccinations and things making children more mentally ill.

This reaction is so stupid, it makes me sad.

Who are you to know what goes on in someone's mind?

This kind of thinking is what makes this world a bad place, saying that people who are different than you are mentally ill.

They said that about gay people years ago and still do in parts of the world

They looked gay people up because of their "mental illness".

And what did us bring that?

Did gay people go away?

No of course not.

What did go away in big parts of the world is the stupidity of some people and the way they think.

Now it's "there's is nothing wrong with being gay, but transgender....no, that's a mental illness".

damn...

Yes, "stupid". I always find it funny that the righteous never analyze their behavior when judging others, tsk tsk.

You dont see me, or anyone with an opinion calling anyone faggot, stupid, or anything like that. Its merely an opinion, which happens to be informed atleast. And then in come you, calling otheres stupid, saying they make the world a terrible place, without actually discussing the subject or saying anything worth while. Very intelligent.

Tsk, tsk, my friend.

LayzieKiddZ said:

nextedition said:

This reaction is so stupid, it makes me sad.

Who are you to know what goes on in someone's mind?

This kind of thinking is what makes this world a bad place, saying that people who are different than you are mentally ill.

They said that about gay people years ago and still do in parts of the world

They looked gay people up because of their "mental illness".

And what did us bring that?

Did gay people go away?

No of course not.

What did go away in big parts of the world is the stupidity of some people and the way they think.

Now it's "there's is nothing wrong with being gay, but transgender....no, that's a mental illness".

damn...

Yes, "stupid". I always find it funny that the righteous never analyze their behavior when judging others, tsk tsk.

You dont see me, or anyone with an opinion calling anyone faggot, stupid, or anything like that. Its merely an opinion, which happens to be informed atleast. And then in come you, calling otheres stupid, saying they make the world a terrible place, without actually discussing the subject or saying anything worth while. Very intelligent.

Tsk, tsk, my friend.

If this was the case, I would have no problem with what BAD said. To put homosexuality in the same line with pedophilia and bestiality shows how uninformed that opinion truly is.

When someone has been oppressed, it makes zero sense to me that they are okay with the oppression of others.

AborshaClinique said:

Gunsnhalen said:

Eh,. King Bad is 82 years old. He has been taught for years that homosexuality is wrong. People who are taught something for years and years won't just come around or accept it like that. My grandma and many others are kind of the same. I don't like that they think that way... but it's what they've believed in for deades. And you can't change deacades long believes over night you know?

justification. If you are a thinking individual and you logically think things over you can make a change in your life. Some people are comfortable being privileged [Edited 6/14/14 22:18pm]

someone who gets it...

i don't have to bend, bow, or break.

your acceptance is your's

i'm 59 (8/20 i can claim it)

i am and will remain who i am.

some people will shift with the weather.

At least KingBad is an honest person, something I think should be valued, because some people are just going along with the program, so that it doesn't contradict what they truly believe and feel.

Stymie said:

LayzieKiddZ said:

Yes, "stupid". I always find it funny that the righteous never analyze their behavior when judging others, tsk tsk.

You dont see me, or anyone with an opinion calling anyone faggot, stupid, or anything like that. Its merely an opinion, which happens to be informed atleast. And then in come you, calling otheres stupid, saying they make the world a terrible place, without actually discussing the subject or saying anything worth while. Very intelligent.

Tsk, tsk, my friend.

If this was the case, I would have no problem with what BAD said. To put homosexuality in the same line with pedophilia and bestiality shows how uninformed that opinion truly is.

When someone has been oppressed, it makes zero sense to me that they are okay with the oppression of others.

Well, I didnt see that part in terms of his reply. Speaking of my own and a couple others.

LayzieKiddZ said:

Stymie said:

If this was the case, I would have no problem with what BAD said. To put homosexuality in the same line with pedophilia and bestiality shows how uninformed that opinion truly is.

When someone has been oppressed, it makes zero sense to me that they are okay with the oppression of others.

Well, I didnt see that part in terms of his reply. Speaking of my own and a couple others.

Your opinion is not informed. You stated unequivocally that it is mental illness and offered no backup for that opinion.

As for the others, I disagree with them as well. However, they did not equate homosexuality with perversion as BAD did. His choice of course and I would never try to silence him. I do find it sad however that he chooses to remain ignorant on the subject.

I dont need to. Look up your own info. Media nonsense infecting children + chemicals and unhealthy diets = obvious issues.

^This guy.

Beautifulstarr123 said:

At least KingBad is an honest person, something I think should be valued, because some people are just going along with the program, so that it doesn't contradict what they truly believe and feel.

honesty is the thing that everybody says they want, but won't accept if it's contrary to what they think...

LayzieKiddZ said:

^This guy.

Good job

LadyCasanova said:

LayzieKiddZ said:

^This guy.

Good job

Beautifulstarr123 said:

At least KingBad is an honest person, something I think should be valued, because some people are just going along with the program, so that it doesn't contradict what they truly believe and feel.

He is no more honest than everyone else here so I fail to see why this is being singled out as some kind of applaudable trait in this thread.

And I'm not really understanding how bigotry is downplayed yet being honest about your bigotry is somehow honorable.

This place is beyond weird now.

JustErin said:

Beautifulstarr123 said:

At least KingBad is an honest person, something I think should be valued, because some people are just going along with the program, so that it doesn't contradict what they truly believe and feel.

He is no more honest than everyone else here so I fail to see why this is being singled out as some kind of applaudable trait in this thread.

And I'm not really understanding how bigotry is downplayed yet being honest about your bigotry is somehow honorable.

This place is beyond weird now.

you got yo thang and i got mine.

your anger is about me NOT

acceptin YOUR point of view...

YOU wanna think you are so ENLIGHTENED

while think of me as some kind of

neanderthal... i'm way above that.

GAY AIN'T THE NEW BLACK and

never will be...

I'M BLACK BY CHOICE NOT FORCE,

otherwise i'd just be another nrgro l

ookin for acceptance in a fucked up society.

MY LIFE, MY RULES...

don't you WISH you could be SO FREE

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/science/31conv.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Declaring With Clarity, When Gender Is Ambiguous

By CLAUDIA DREIFUS

Dr. William G. Reiner, a faculty member at the University of Oklahoma and Johns Hopkins, says he is just a "dull guy leading a dull life."

That seems unlikely. A 57-year-old psychiatrist and urologist, Dr. Reiner is a leading specialist in the treatment of children with the intersexual condition, boys and girls born with ambiguous genitaliA.

"I like working with these children," he said on a break in a meeting in Washington, where he had made a presentation before the American Association for the Advancement of Science. "They've had atypical life experiences, and they tend to be extraordinarily sensitive and vulnerable. They see an aspect of what it means to be alive in a different way from the rest of us."

Paul Hellstern for The New York Times

William G. Reiner, urologist and psychiatrist, treats intersex children.

Q. How did you begin with your unusual specialty?

A. In the early 1980's, I was a urologist in central California, and this remarkable 14-year-old "girl" came to my office. "I'm a boy, not a girl," this child declared.

The child had an intersex condition. At birth, he didn't have a penis, but rather something that appeared more like an enlarged clitoris. He had a partial testicle on one side. Internally, he was half female, and he looked more female than male. Indeed, since infancy, his parents had raised him female.

Since puberty, however, that one testicle had begun producing enough male hormones to masculinize him. To all he now insisted, "You've got it wrong: I'm a boy!"

And this child wanted me to help convince his parents he was male. Moreover, he wanted me to help him get surgery so that his phallic structure looked more like a penis. I was able to do both.

That was the beginning for me. Over years, I saw dozens of children with anomalies of their genitaliA. Eventually, I retrained in psychiatry so that I could help them with the nonsurgical aspects of what they encountered. These children moved me. When you hear someone declare with such clarity that they know themselves far better than the experts, it is life changing.

Q. Aren't these intersex conditions rather rare?

A. There are probably around 1,000 intersex babies born every year in the United States. The numbers can add up. The term actually refers to six different conditions where children are born with ambiguous sexual structures.

The majority are the result of something going wrong early in a pregnancy, where the fetus is exposed to an inappropriate amount of hormones in the uterus.

You can get genetic girls who look from the outside like males because they were exposed to male hormones at a critical stage of fetal development. Conversely, you can get genetic males looking like females because they didn't get enough male hormones in utero.

There are a whole group of more mixed external manifestations of gender that also occur.

Until the 1950's, when an intersex child was born, they were let be. But starting in the 1950's, the general approach was to make the child into one sex or another. If it was a partially masculinized female, there was a surgical attempt to turn her into a "normal" female. Structures were created so that she could have intercourse later.

If the child was a genetic male, the question was, Will the adult penis be large enough for sexual intercourse? The vast majority of the children with severe inadequacy of the penis were converted to "female" surgically and then raised as girls.

Q. So the prescription for the intersex boys was castrate them and put them into a dress?

A. The problem was, In a large number of children, as with my first intersex patient, it never took. Gender has far more to do with other important structures than external genitals.

Q. How do you know what constitutes gender identity?

A. As part of a research study, I've personally seen and assessed 400 children with major anomalies of the genitals. Of those, approximately 100 might be called "intersex." Our findings have been many and complex. The most important is that about 60 percent of the genetic male children raised as female have retransitioned into males.

We also found that of this group there were some genetically male children, who despite genital anomalies were raised as males, and they continued to declare themselves as male.

Q. What conclusions can you draw about the eventual sexual identity of an intersex child?

A. That you can castrate a male at birth, create a female genital structure, raise the child as a girl, and in a majority of the cases, they'll still recognize themselves as male. Now many of the children I've seen are still young. I don't know what will happen as they get older.

The larger point is that it's been a monstrous failure, this idea that you can convert a child's sex by making over the child's genitals in the sex you've chosen. This began in the 1950's, when surgeons who felt helpless when they encountered intersex children thought they were helping them with sexual reassignment. The psychologists were saying, "You can make a boy or a girl or anything you want." It wasn't true. The children often knew it.

Q. The idea of sexual reassignment surgery started at Johns Hopkins, where you are a part-time faculty member. Has there been a change in attitude among the staff members there?

A. It's my understanding that the originators of that standard of care may still support that idea and are still on staff. But I've also spoken with the Johns Hopkins Institutions' pediatric urologists, and my sense is they'd be very leery of sex assigning a genetic male to female.

Q. Can children grow up mentally healthy if they have ambiguous genitalia?

A. I think that these sexual assignments often create more problems than they solve. The children grow up with unhealthy secrets. What the kids tell me is that while they didn't know they were males, they always knew something was wrong because they were "too different" from all the other girls.

In my psychiatric practice, I've had families where the parents asked me to be with them when they told their children, "You were actually born a boy." That turned out to be a critical moment because every child converted to being a boy within hours, except for two. With those two, they refused to ever discuss their sexual identity again. Still, none of them stayed female.

Q. Because of all this new research, is the accepted standard of care of intersex children changing?

A. There's no one standard now. Five years ago, a genetic male child born without a penis or a severely inadequate one almost universally would have been assigned female at birth. Today, about two-thirds of the pediatric urologists say they wouldn't go that route, which means that one-third still might. That says that we're not sure of the right way, yet.

It's an irony to me that surgeons have gotten the worst criticism from intersex adults for these practices. Certainly psychologists and endocrinologists were also involved.

From what I've seen, it's the surgeons that have made the biggest changes the fastest. I think part of the reason for that is that surgeons do things to their patients physically and are, therefore, very sensitive to doing the right thing.

Q. What conclusions do you draw from your study?

A. That sexual identity is individual, unique and intuitive and that the only person who really knows what it is is the person themselves. If we as physicians or scientists want to know about a person's sexual identity, we have to ask them.

XxAxX said:

http://www.nytimes.com/20...l&_r=0

Declaring With Clarity, When Gender Is Ambiguous

By CLAUDIA DREIFUS

Published: May 31, 2005

Dr. William G. Reiner, a faculty member at the University of Oklahoma and Johns Hopkins, says he is just a "dull guy leading a dull life."

That seems unlikely. A 57-year-old psychiatrist and urologist, Dr. Reiner is a leading specialist in the treatment of children with the intersexual condition, boys and girls born with ambiguous genitaliA.

"I like working with these children," he said on a break in a meeting in Washington, where he had made a presentation before the American Association for the Advancement of Science. "They've had atypical life experiences, and they tend to be extraordinarily sensitive and vulnerable. They see an aspect of what it means to be alive in a different way from the rest of us."

Paul Hellstern for The New York Times

William G. Reiner, urologist and psychiatrist, treats intersex children.

Q. How did you begin with your unusual specialty?

A. In the early 1980's, I was a urologist in central California, and this remarkable 14-year-old "girl" came to my office. "I'm a boy, not a girl," this child declared.

The child had an intersex condition. At birth, he didn't have a penis, but rather something that appeared more like an enlarged clitoris. He had a partial testicle on one side. Internally, he was half female, and he looked more female than male. Indeed, since infancy, his parents had raised him female.

Since puberty, however, that one testicle had begun producing enough male hormones to masculinize him. To all he now insisted, "You've got it wrong: I'm a boy!"

And this child wanted me to help convince his parents he was male. Moreover, he wanted me to help him get surgery so that his phallic structure looked more like a penis. I was able to do both.

That was the beginning for me. Over years, I saw dozens of children with anomalies of their genitaliA. Eventually, I retrained in psychiatry so that I could help them with the nonsurgical aspects of what they encountered. These children moved me. When you hear someone declare with such clarity that they know themselves far better than the experts, it is life changing.

Q. Aren't these intersex conditions rather rare?

A. There are probably around 1,000 intersex babies born every year in the United States. The numbers can add up. The term actually refers to six different conditions where children are born with ambiguous sexual structures.

The majority are the result of something going wrong early in a pregnancy, where the fetus is exposed to an inappropriate amount of hormones in the uterus.

You can get genetic girls who look from the outside like males because they were exposed to male hormones at a critical stage of fetal development. Conversely, you can get genetic males looking like females because they didn't get enough male hormones in utero.

There are a whole group of more mixed external manifestations of gender that also occur.

Until the 1950's, when an intersex child was born, they were let be. But starting in the 1950's, the general approach was to make the child into one sex or another. If it was a partially masculinized female, there was a surgical attempt to turn her into a "normal" female. Structures were created so that she could have intercourse later.

If the child was a genetic male, the question was, Will the adult penis be large enough for sexual intercourse? The vast majority of the children with severe inadequacy of the penis were converted to "female" surgically and then raised as girls.

Q. So the prescription for the intersex boys was castrate them and put them into a dress?

A. The problem was, In a large number of children, as with my first intersex patient, it never took. Gender has far more to do with other important structures than external genitals.

Q. How do you know what constitutes gender identity?

A. As part of a research study, I've personally seen and assessed 400 children with major anomalies of the genitals. Of those, approximately 100 might be called "intersex." Our findings have been many and complex. The most important is that about 60 percent of the genetic male children raised as female have retransitioned into males.

We also found that of this group there were some genetically male children, who despite genital anomalies were raised as males, and they continued to declare themselves as male.

Q. What conclusions can you draw about the eventual sexual identity of an intersex child?

A. That you can castrate a male at birth, create a female genital structure, raise the child as a girl, and in a majority of the cases, they'll still recognize themselves as male. Now many of the children I've seen are still young. I don't know what will happen as they get older.

The larger point is that it's been a monstrous failure, this idea that you can convert a child's sex by making over the child's genitals in the sex you've chosen. This began in the 1950's, when surgeons who felt helpless when they encountered intersex children thought they were helping them with sexual reassignment. The psychologists were saying, "You can make a boy or a girl or anything you want." It wasn't true. The children often knew it.

Q. The idea of sexual reassignment surgery started at Johns Hopkins, where you are a part-time faculty member. Has there been a change in attitude among the staff members there?

A. It's my understanding that the originators of that standard of care may still support that idea and are still on staff. But I've also spoken with the Johns Hopkins Institutions' pediatric urologists, and my sense is they'd be very leery of sex assigning a genetic male to female.

Q. Can children grow up mentally healthy if they have ambiguous genitalia?

A. I think that these sexual assignments often create more problems than they solve. The children grow up with unhealthy secrets. What the kids tell me is that while they didn't know they were males, they always knew something was wrong because they were "too different" from all the other girls.

In my psychiatric practice, I've had families where the parents asked me to be with them when they told their children, "You were actually born a boy." That turned out to be a critical moment because every child converted to being a boy within hours, except for two. With those two, they refused to ever discuss their sexual identity again. Still, none of them stayed female.

Q. Because of all this new research, is the accepted standard of care of intersex children changing?

A. There's no one standard now. Five years ago, a genetic male child born without a penis or a severely inadequate one almost universally would have been assigned female at birth. Today, about two-thirds of the pediatric urologists say they wouldn't go that route, which means that one-third still might. That says that we're not sure of the right way, yet.

It's an irony to me that surgeons have gotten the worst criticism from intersex adults for these practices. Certainly psychologists and endocrinologists were also involved.

From what I've seen, it's the surgeons that have made the biggest changes the fastest. I think part of the reason for that is that surgeons do things to their patients physically and are, therefore, very sensitive to doing the right thing.

Q. What conclusions do you draw from your study?

A. That sexual identity is individual, unique and intuitive and that the only person who really knows what it is is the person themselves. If we as physicians or scientists want to know about a person's sexual identity, we have to ask them.

It all gets so crazy doesn't it. Jamie Lee Curtis also had some work done as a baby, not obviously her choice (exactly what was done I am not sure but she will speak to doctors concerning the subject. She has never made it a tabloid thing). It has to be a tough choice for a parent to make.

My concern is still the same. You are performing surgery on someone who is in the most mentally overwhelming time of their life.

But, it can also be argued that young boys can transform into young women more successfully and convincingly if the surgery is done fairly early.

KingBAD said:

JustErin said:

He is no more honest than everyone else here so I fail to see why this is being singled out as some kind of applaudable trait in this thread.

And I'm not really understanding how bigotry is downplayed yet being honest about your bigotry is somehow honorable.

This place is beyond weird now.

you got yo thang and i got mine.

your anger is about me NOT

acceptin YOUR point of view...

YOU wanna think you are so ENLIGHTENED

while think of me as some kind of

neanderthal... i'm way above that.

GAY AIN'T THE NEW BLACK and

never will be...

I'M BLACK BY CHOICE NOT FORCE,

otherwise i'd just be another nrgro l

ookin for acceptance in a fucked up society.

MY LIFE, MY RULES...

don't you WISH you could be SO FREE

You are terribly confused.

I am not angry.

Your posts come off as a person that is not totally there mentally. If that's what you consider being "free"....enjoy your freedom.

JustErin said:

KingBAD said:

you got yo thang and i got mine.

your anger is about me NOT

acceptin YOUR point of view...

YOU wanna think you are so ENLIGHTENED

while think of me as some kind of

neanderthal... i'm way above that.

GAY AIN'T THE NEW BLACK and

never will be...

I'M BLACK BY CHOICE NOT FORCE,

otherwise i'd just be another nrgro l

ookin for acceptance in a fucked up society.

MY LIFE, MY RULES...

don't you WISH you could be SO FREE

You are terribly confused.

I am not angry.

Your posts come off as a person that is not totally there mentally. If that's what you consider being "free"....enjoy your freedom.

okay i like you both but i feel that your comment above to KB is not fair.

his style is different but that's befause the King expresses himself in a more poeticolorful way than most people do.


personally, i think the issue of gender identification is very multifaceted and the article above demonstratres that we don't know much about the subject. from what little we do know it seems that both socialization factors and genetic predisposition factors contribute to the ongoing mystery. this is just my 2c.