RodeoSchro said:

I'll tell you something else - I have DAMN SURE told my kids and every other young person I've had the good fortune to mentor or influence that drugs will kill you, and doing them is stupid and wrong.

If you've told your kid anything other than that, you've made a mistake.

Now you're being reasonable.

I agree with much of what you say here and above. I just don't agree with characterizing him as a "moron" after his tragic death. We don't know the circumstances of his addiction. People--even smart people--become addicted to drugs their doctors prescribed (and likely that is how he fell off the wagon after 20 years). I don't think that is because they are morons, but pain can make a person make choices that are clearly not the right choices.

The truly scary part (and the part children don't always understand) is that it can happen to anyone, moron or not. It can also happen to brilliant and successful people who should know better. To suggest that it only morons are in danger is to lessen the threat of addiction!

[Edited 2/4/14 14:48pm]

RodeoSchro said:

RodeoSchro said:

NDRU said:

Doing something moronic doesn't make you a moron. You've never done something regrettable?

But mostly, it's incrediby insensitive to insult someone like that upon their death. You don't know that someone here doesn't know the guy

Well for anyone that knew the guy, they ought to be mad as hell at him. And they REALLY ought to be mad as hell at whoever introduced him to drugs, whoever sold him drugs, and whoever did drugs with him.

His death was not just tragic - it was senseless and above all, stupid.

Why are people not outraged that such a talented, loving family man was stolen by heroin? By drug culture? By drug dealers?

Don't you understand exactly what killed this man?

Do you REALLY want to honor Hoffman? Tell every single person you can - especially young people - that drugs are a dead-end. And emphasis on the "dead". You'll need nothing more than the title of this thread to make your point.

Calling drug users morons was an unfair thing to say & it’s also just incorrect. It ignored all the reasons, the ‘why does that happen’ questions, that need to be considered when you look at why people do the things they do.

You’re now being reasonable & if you had said this initially I really wouldn’t have had any beef with you. I still disagree with you and I think your approach is wrong, & I think the experience of millions of people shows that your wrong, but you’re now in an area where we could have a reasonable debate. I can't have do that right now (14 hr work day ahead of me) but at least we could move past this side-issue that you created with your comment.

New York (CNN) -- Four people thought to be connected to the drugs found in late actor Philip Seymour Hoffman's apartment were arrested late Tuesday night, law enforcement officials told CNN.

During the raid that yielded the arrest of the three men and one woman, police recovered 350 glassine-type bags of what is believed to be heroin, the officials said.

No additional information was released.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/0...?hpt=hp_t1

damosuzuki said:

RodeoSchro said:

Well for anyone that knew the guy, they ought to be mad as hell at him. And they REALLY ought to be mad as hell at whoever introduced him to drugs, whoever sold him drugs, and whoever did drugs with him.

His death was not just tragic - it was senseless and above all, stupid.

Why are people not outraged that such a talented, loving family man was stolen by heroin? By drug culture? By drug dealers?

Don't you understand exactly what killed this man?

Do you REALLY want to honor Hoffman? Tell every single person you can - especially young people - that drugs are a dead-end. And emphasis on the "dead". You'll need nothing more than the title of this thread to make your point.

Calling drug users morons was an unfair thing to say & it’s also just incorrect. It ignored all the reasons, the ‘why does that happen’ questions, that need to be considered when you look at why people do the things they do.

You’re now being reasonable & if you had said this initially I really wouldn’t have had any beef with you. I still disagree with you and I think your approach is wrong, & I think the experience of millions of people shows that your wrong, but you’re now in an area where we could have a reasonable debate. I can't have do that right now (14 hr work day ahead of me) but at least we could move past this side-issue that you created with your comment.

Drug users ARE morons. I'm not going to apologize for saying what's true.

Making the decision to try drugs - especially hard drugs - with all the information available; with all the knowledge we have; with all the examples of people who died because of drugs? How can anyone who makes that first decision to try drugs be anything BUT a moron?

I am very sorry for Hoffman's family's loss but he was a moron. I am absolutely 100% sensitive to the horrors of addiction, but those horrors don't lessen the moronic nature of the initial decision to try heroin, or any hard drug.

And the sooner we all realize that, the sooner we'll quit accepting the concept of "experimenting" with this shit. "Experimenting"? Bullshit. It's not "experimenting"; it's being moronic.

people never learn ... stupid fucker knew the risk what an asshole.

I am going to go on record with supporting the tough love approach.

Drill it into EVERYONE's mind...starting from kindergarten...that drugs are evil, drugs are lethal, and yeah - you're a f*cking moron if you ever are so weak to do that to yourself. This is not a joke. This is reality. No beating around the bush. I'm not sugar-coating it for my kids.

We all have demons - we all struggle with issues - we can ALL, at any point in time, become an addict. Some of us can get addicted more easily than others. Someone can decide one day; "this will be my last drink" and be sober for the next 40 years...others will volley back-&-forth between sobriety and addiction for the rest of their lives. Why do that to yourself? ESPECIALLY with something like HEROIN?!?!?!

AND is you find yourself, for whatever reason, slipping down that slippery slope, DO something about it...find that inner strength...let go of the selfishness and egotistic behavior that would cause you to value that "high" as being MORE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR CHILDREN!!!

Not only does our society glamorize destructive behavior, we also are embarrassed to criticize the ACT of engaging in destructive behavior! How is that possible? How is that justified? In the name of compassion maybe? I would say that compassion & love for my kids are reason enough for me to strike the fear of GOD unto them so that if (Heaven forbid) they ever are tempted, they'll think not twice but 4 or 5 times before sticking that needle in their arm, knowing full well as they're doing it that they're being f*cking morons for playing with their lives.

PurpleJedi said:

I am going to go on record with supporting the tough love approach.

Drill it into EVERYONE's mind...starting from kindergarten...that drugs are evil, drugs are lethal, and yeah - you're a f*cking moron if you ever are so weak to do that to yourself. This is not a joke. This is reality. No beating around the bush. I'm not sugar-coating it for my kids.

We all have demons - we all struggle with issues - we can ALL, at any point in time, become an addict. Some of us can get addicted more easily than others. Someone can decide one day; "this will be my last drink" and be sober for the next 40 years...others will volley back-&-forth between sobriety and addiction for the rest of their lives. Why do that to yourself? ESPECIALLY with something like HEROIN?!?!?!

AND is you find yourself, for whatever reason, slipping down that slippery slope, DO something about it...find that inner strength...let go of the selfishness and egotistic behavior that would cause you to value that "high" as being MORE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR CHILDREN!!!

Not only does our society glamorize destructive behavior, we also are embarrassed to criticize the ACT of engaging in destructive behavior! How is that possible? How is that justified? In the name of compassion maybe? I would say that compassion & love for my kids are reason enough for me to strike the fear of GOD unto them so that if (Heaven forbid) they ever are tempted, they'll think not twice but 4 or 5 times before sticking that needle in their arm, knowing full well as they're doing it that they're being f*cking morons for playing with their lives.

I agree with what you're saying, but part of the reason I hate this whole "only morons use drugs" is that I have seen smart people make stupid decisions using that same logic. They think only dumb people get hooked and that they're too smart for that. I'm not talking about a needle in the arm, either, I am talking about people joking around saying "look at me, I'm smoking a cigarette HAHA!"

And then they become smokers and they get hooked because it's not about smart or dumb, it's just human weakness.

NDRU said:

PurpleJedi said:

I am going to go on record with supporting the tough love approach.

Drill it into EVERYONE's mind...starting from kindergarten...that drugs are evil, drugs are lethal, and yeah - you're a f*cking moron if you ever are so weak to do that to yourself. This is not a joke. This is reality. No beating around the bush. I'm not sugar-coating it for my kids.

We all have demons - we all struggle with issues - we can ALL, at any point in time, become an addict. Some of us can get addicted more easily than others. Someone can decide one day; "this will be my last drink" and be sober for the next 40 years...others will volley back-&-forth between sobriety and addiction for the rest of their lives. Why do that to yourself? ESPECIALLY with something like HEROIN?!?!?!

AND is you find yourself, for whatever reason, slipping down that slippery slope, DO something about it...find that inner strength...let go of the selfishness and egotistic behavior that would cause you to value that "high" as being MORE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR CHILDREN!!!

Not only does our society glamorize destructive behavior, we also are embarrassed to criticize the ACT of engaging in destructive behavior! How is that possible? How is that justified? In the name of compassion maybe? I would say that compassion & love for my kids are reason enough for me to strike the fear of GOD unto them so that if (Heaven forbid) they ever are tempted, they'll think not twice but 4 or 5 times before sticking that needle in their arm, knowing full well as they're doing it that they're being f*cking morons for playing with their lives.

I agree with what you're saying, but part of the reason I hate this whole "only morons use drugs" is that I have seen smart people make stupid decisions using that same logic. They think only dumb people get hooked and that they're too smart for that. I'm not talking about a needle in the arm, either, I am talking about people joking around saying "look at me, I'm smoking a cigarette HAHA!"

And then they become smokers and they get hooked because it's not about smart or dumb, it's just human weakness.

I would argue that they ARE dumb. They may have refused to believe it, but they are dumb. I don't smoke and never have, but I'd never say I'm stronger than someone else. Smarter? Sure. Made better decisions? Yes. That's one of the definitions of "smarter".

On the other hand, many have broken addictions that if for some reason I had, who knows if I'd have the strength to break? Neither of my parents could break their addiction to tobacco, so I'd tend to think I'm not nearly as strong in that regard as others are.

I see Rodeo's point. And to a big extent, I agree. Lots of people, be it MJ, Whitney, Ike, Elvis, Janis Joplin, Marvin, Richard Pryor, etc., they seem to think they can just do a drug and be okay and before they know it, they're a junkie. Since heroin is an opiate (like many prescription drugs are), it was easy for him to relapse because chemicals change your brain so you definitely will act moronic whenever you want a drug and do anything in your power to injure yourself so you can get it. Some drug addicts' motto is "I only got one life to live and I see nothing else for me so I'm just gonna see how far I can go before I can blow my brains out (on drugs)". Then some who manage to be sober (and don't relapse; i.e. Natalie Cole) will experience health problems that won't be easy to fix but that's because their brains and bodies have been reprogrammed where as soon as they think of drugs and alcohol, they try hard to fight the urge. For some, they manage to live without going back but others become lost and think "oh what's one toke gonna do? I'm not gonna be addicted" and then... either they become addicts again or, in the case of PSH, die almost immediately. Frankie Lymon was clean for a couple years before making that trip to New York to record a few comeback songs. Then he celebrated by buying heroin and dying of an overdose. Tough love sometimes gets through to addicts and others just further shove people away from their lives.

Get over yourselves, we're all addicts.

Some people take a substance to mask their pain, everyone else doesn't addict to substances, they just addict to their beliefs, judgments, points of view, Gods, victim stories, arrogance etc, etc to run from their pain. You all do it.

All addicts are morons? That's about as useful as saying all religous people are morons.

[Edited 2/5/14 16:12pm]

ConsciousContact said:

Get over yourselves, we're all addicts.

Some people take a substance to mask their pain, everyone else doesn't addict to substances, they just addict to their beliefs, judgments, points of view, Gods, victim stories, arrogance etc, etc to run from their pain. You all do it.

All addicts are morons? That's about as useful as saying all religous people are morons.

[Edited 2/5/14 16:12pm]

I don't recall anyone saying addicts are morons.

The comment that got all the panties in a bunch was; "Doing drugs makes you a moron" (or something to that effect).

Most people do engage in addictive behavior, without a doubt.

Tell you this much...if Phillip S. Hoffman had gotten hooked on Jesus instead of horse...his kids wouldn't be burying their dad right now.

The dead actor looks like a certain orger.

Do most people kill(others)under the influence of hard drugs then die from it directly?

Excluding prescription drugs,over the counter meds.

PurpleJedi said:

ConsciousContact said:

Get over yourselves, we're all addicts.

Some people take a substance to mask their pain, everyone else doesn't addict to substances, they just addict to their beliefs, judgments, points of view, Gods, victim stories, arrogance etc, etc to run from their pain. You all do it.

All addicts are morons? That's about as useful as saying all religous people are morons.

[Edited 2/5/14 16:12pm]

I don't recall anyone saying addicts are morons.

The comment that got all the panties in a bunch was; "Doing drugs makes you a moron" (or something to that effect).

Most people do engage in addictive behavior, without a doubt.

Tell you this much...if Phillip S. Hoffman had gotten hooked on Jesus instead of horse...his kids wouldn't be burying their dad right now.

This is what I read. "Anyone that tries drugs is a moron. No argument, no exceptions." And I just don't believe that. But I could possibly go with "drugs can make smart people act dumb sometimes"

r.i.p. mr. hoffman.

[Edited 2/6/14 5:38am]

NDRU said:

PurpleJedi said:

I don't recall anyone saying addicts are morons.

The comment that got all the panties in a bunch was; "Doing drugs makes you a moron" (or something to that effect).

Most people do engage in addictive behavior, without a doubt.

Tell you this much...if Phillip S. Hoffman had gotten hooked on Jesus instead of horse...his kids wouldn't be burying their dad right now.

This is what I read. "Anyone that tries drugs is a moron. No argument, no exceptions." And I just don't believe that. But I could possibly go with "drugs can make smart people act dumb sometimes"

And this was my point as well. Some drug users are morons no doubt, but there are lots of reasons why people do such things that have nothing to do with intelligence. People make mistakes, and they ought to be accountable for their mistakes, but they also should be judged fairly.

[Edited 2/6/14 4:35am]

damosuzuki said:

NDRU said:

This is what I read. "Anyone that tries drugs is a moron. No argument, no exceptions." And I just don't believe that. But I could possibly go with "drugs can make smart people act dumb sometimes"

And this was my point as well. Some drug users are morons no doubt, but there are lots of reasons why people do such things that have nothing to do with intelligence. People make mistakes, and they ought to be accountable for their mistakes, but they also should be judged fairly.

[Edited 2/6/14 4:35am]

Agree 100%

PurpleJedi said:

ConsciousContact said:

Get over yourselves, we're all addicts.

Some people take a substance to mask their pain, everyone else doesn't addict to substances, they just addict to their beliefs, judgments, points of view, Gods, victim stories, arrogance etc, etc to run from their pain. You all do it.

All addicts are morons? That's about as useful as saying all religous people are morons.

[Edited 2/5/14 16:12pm]

I don't recall anyone saying addicts are morons.

The comment that got all the panties in a bunch was; "Doing drugs makes you a moron" (or something to that effect).

Most people do engage in addictive behavior, without a doubt.

Tell you this much...if Phillip S. Hoffman had gotten hooked on Jesus instead of horse...his kids wouldn't be burying their dad right now.

Right, because religious people do not do drugs or engage in any dangerous activity.

Anyway, people really shouldn't be bothered when someone that is so insignificant in their lives calls them a moron. If someone I consider a complete idiot wants to trash talk me, doesn't bother me in the least...they are nothing.

Anyway, it's a shame people have moments of poor judgment. We all do it at some point in our lives in one way or another and unfortunately some bad decisions can be more detrimental than others.

I personally do not have disdain for real addicts. I have sympathy for them, particularly for those that make attempts to beat their addiction and ultimately fail.

Yeah the last thing I'd call a drug addict is an "idiot". It may be dumb but sometimes people do it for other reasons than stupidity. PSH was in pain most of his life. For a time he thought heroin was a cure, then he found acting. Last days of his life, heroin came creeping back to him and he couldn't control the urge anymore. Sad, sad, sad.

JustErin said:

PurpleJedi said:

I don't recall anyone saying addicts are morons.

The comment that got all the panties in a bunch was; "Doing drugs makes you a moron" (or something to that effect).

Most people do engage in addictive behavior, without a doubt.

Tell you this much...if Phillip S. Hoffman had gotten hooked on Jesus instead of horse...his kids wouldn't be burying their dad right now.

Right, because religious people do not do drugs or engage in any dangerous activity.

Anyway, people really shouldn't be bothered when someone that is so insignificant in their lives calls them a moron. If someone I consider a complete idiot wants to trash talk me, doesn't bother me in the least...they are nothing.

Anyway, it's a shame people have moments of poor judgment. We all do it at some point in our lives in one way or another and unfortunately some bad decisions can be more detrimental than others.

I personally do not have disdain for real addicts. I have sympathy for them, particularly for those that make attempts to beat their addiction and ultimately fail.

That's the thing with opinions...it's like ass-cracks...everyone has one.

PurpleJedi said:

JustErin said:

Right, because religious people do not do drugs or engage in any dangerous activity.

Anyway, people really shouldn't be bothered when someone that is so insignificant in their lives calls them a moron. If someone I consider a complete idiot wants to trash talk me, doesn't bother me in the least...they are nothing.

Anyway, it's a shame people have moments of poor judgment. We all do it at some point in our lives in one way or another and unfortunately some bad decisions can be more detrimental than others.

I personally do not have disdain for real addicts. I have sympathy for them, particularly for those that make attempts to beat their addiction and ultimately fail.

That's the thing with opinions...it's like ass-cracks...everyone has one.

and most of them stink.

ConsciousContact said:

PurpleJedi said:

That's the thing with opinions...it's like ass-cracks...everyone has one.

and most of them stink.

Addictions come in many forms, drugs, food, hording. All are in common, in that they are not the best coping mechanisms. So, who's moronic now? Are over weight people moronic?

No. they are not. They are people who suffer from lack of coping skills.

kewlschool said:

Addictions come in many forms, drugs, food, hording. All are in common, in that they are not the best coping mechanisms. So, who's moronic now? Are over weight people moronic?

No. they are not. They are people who suffer from lack of coping skills.

My point isn't about addiction at all. It's aimed at the initial decision to try drugs. Allow me to elaborate:

If you decide to try drugs, you are a moron.

If you try drugs and quit them, you are not a moron. In fact, you have changed from moron to intelligent.

If you try drugs and keep doing them of your own free will, you are a true moron.

If you try drugs, get addicted, and try to get help with your addiction, I am there for you. You made a moronic decision to try drugs, but you came to your senses and now you need help. There's no shame in that. And I don't have to tell you that you made a moronic decision to try drugs that first time. You already know that.

But above all - if you make a decision to try drugs, you are a moron. There is no possible way to characterize the decision to try drugs as anything but moronic.

What I think is really sad is when an older person who has known street drugs are dangerous his entire life and never messed with them when he was younger becomes addicted in middle age... A form of deliberate self-destruction from what I've seen...

purplethunder3121 said:

What I think is really sad is when an older person who has known street drugs are dangerous his entire life and never messed with them when he was younger becomes addicted in middle age... A form of deliberate self-destruction from what I've seen...

Don't know if it's true but one of Joe Tex's record producers claimed that in the last five years of his life, he got involved with drugs and alcohol and died of a drug overdose while at his pool in 1982. He had been sober all his life beforehand.

Mr. Hoffman was a rich addict. No need for him to rob, cheat or steal to get what he needed. He probably never hurt anyone to get his fix. Does this describe your average addict? Mr. Hoffman also appeared to live in a rich - or at the very least - a "well to do" neighborhood. There probably wasn't a turf war as a result of the drug dealing going on there. Does this describe your average street dealer's situation? All sorts of (what would seem to be preventable) issues/problems creep into one's life (innocent bystanders and others) when drugs become involved. It would truly be ideal if none of us ever got started, but that's not very realisitic. Also, I loved Mr. Hoffman in "Along Came Polly" (I hate to mention because he was such a serious actor). I hope this is readable - I have problems with my posts. If not......oh well, I tried!