Dave1992 said:

LadyCasanova said:

I can relate to this!

I was usually pretty helpful, but when I decided I wasn't going to do something...that was that.

Going to beat me? Well...you better get to it!
Going to take my phone? Good thing I don't have any calls to make!

Can't have dinner? I was getting fat anyways!

My grandmother attempted to "teach me a lesson" about keeping my room clean. She invited
my friends and their parents (from church) to my house and had them come into my room and
chastise me for how messy it was. She wanted to embarrass me, but I didn't give a fuck about
what any of them had to say. When one of the parents said something I told him that if he
didn't like my room, he was free to leave...especially since I never invited him in to begin with!

My grandmother was the only person embarrassed that day.

Carbon copy of what I was like (including the situation with your grandmum!).

I got one kid very much like this,

the eldest can be co-erced if I mention the magic word "privileges" which he knows I will simply remove. Littlest one just throws a distraction tantrum for 45 minutes and hopes it blew over by the time he emerges from his room, he usually doesn't have the energy to throw another one, but it's unlikely he does anything unless threatened with a week of no gaming.

My brother and I had things we were required to do -- like when my mom was cleaning the house, she would let us choose, someone would have to dust, someone would have to vacuum. My brother was an absolute slob. My mother had to tell him constantly to clean his room, pick up his stuff, make his bed, etc. I was the complete opposite (e.g. had separate piggy banks for different denominations of money, always made my bed, organized my sock drawer by color) so I can't offer much advice in that regard.

I don't remember getting an allowance but we both earned money through 4H and summer jobs from the time we were 9 or 10. I was babysitting regularly by 11 or 12, and then worked summer jobs from 13 on so I RARELY asked my parents for money.

However, I got into A LOT of trouble in high school. My parents would threaten to ground me, take away phone privledges, etc. but I didn't care. The ONLY thing that worked was for them to threaten to make me quit the basketball team.

I think they should have to do chores for no allowence, then have the opportunity to do extra work around the house for extra perks -- stay up an hour later, extra gaming time, $$. If they don't do their chores take away something you KNOW they don't want to give up.

You are not there to be their buddy, you are their to teach them to be responsible, decent adults.

Or make them watch some episodes of Hoarders! That show always makes me feel like cleaning and organizing!

Dave1992 said:

PurpleJedi said:

Thanks for the input Dave, I appreciate it.

I am not going to back off though...whether or not they think it's justified or worthy, I will demand certain things. I do agree (and hope to all that's good) that they have enough of a solid foundation that they will eventually be solid, productive, decent adults. But if I don't keep pushing I feel I'm not doing my job.

Example; my oldest (15) is a gamer. He could spend ALL DAY- from the break of dawn to the dead of night - playing video games. If I let him.
So...because I don't want to see him become a thirtysomething stoner in my basement whose only goal in life is to reach Level 300 on Halo...I force him to turn it off. To go read a book (the HORROR!). To go take a SHOWER!!!

I don't want to seem despotic, but I am the adult, and ultimately their success or failure in life will be largely influenced by my actions, deeds & words. Just as you are who you are - independent, confident, educated - largely because of your folks. If your parents had been slobs, underachievers, thieves, etc., you would undoubtedly be the same today.

Some things I don't understand...both the ex & I have a healthy love of reading...and all 3 kids have to be PUSHED to read books.


So I'm putting together my chores list. I will go over it with them when they come home. Now I have to stick to my guns and be consistent.

Don't get me wrong, you're doing your duty and you should! I'm just saying that, if it doesn't work out straight away, don't let it eat you up. It's not your fault if it doesn't work out the way you imagined it straight away.

Gotcha!

Unfortunately, fretting is one thing that I'm really good at.

LadyCasanova said:

I think chores are important for kids, they instill a sense of responsibility and order.

When I was younger, I did chores. While I did have to help around the house, I could keep
my room however I wanted with the reminder that:

1) all holes that I wanted to put in the walls had to be pre-approved
2) dirty dishes and food could not be stored in my room.
3) the carpet needed to stay unstained

4) the walls had to stay their original color
5) nothing could be growing mold
6) the house was a no-smoke zone, including my room. No fire.

My mom always said that if I wanted to live in a disorganized room, she would let me...but the
living room was everyones space, so my shoes needed to go IN MY ROOM!

Some suggestions.
1) (Depending on how many chores you wish to assign) Choose a few age appropriate chores that
make since for each of your individual children and let them pick which ones they do. This way,
they are still a part of the decision making but your needs/expectations are being met.

2) If you decide to pay them an allowance, give it to them consistantly. A chore chart
can be used so that things are visible for the children and you can see who did what. Those little
foil stars are cheap and you can use them to mark the chart. I would suggest actually handing
them the allowance, with refrence to chart, so they make the connection.

3) Stay consistent

4) Don't be afraid to re-work the system, it takes time.

5) Don't start yelling or coming un-done if they don't do what you ask. Negative behavior
works both ways and you will only end up feeding off each others response. You want to be
in control.

I never took anything away from my brother as "punishment" nor did I pay him an allowance.

It was always very clear that the gaming system, computer ect were mine. I payed for them and
he didn't. I knew that gaming was a huge incentive for him. If he did his chores and helped around
the house, he earned some mad gaming time.

If there was a game he was dying to have, we would work out a deal. He had to earn the game,
I didn't just run out and buy it for him.

During the month there were bigger privileges to be earned for a combo of doing well in school,
helping around the house, and keeping his word. If he had an excellent month I would let him
having a gaming night with his friends at the house (pizza, anyone?) or take him and a friend to
the $5.00 theatre or to the water-park.

I never understood taking things away from him. If he bought a video game with his own money,
or got it as a gift from a family member, what right did I have to take it away from him? I think
I would have had a fight on my hands if I attempted to punish him for not helping around the house.

Awesome! Thank you.

ZombieKitten said:

Dave1992 said:

Carbon copy of what I was like (including the situation with your grandmum!).

I got one kid very much like this,

the eldest can be co-erced if I mention the magic word "privileges" which he knows I will simply remove. Littlest one just throws a distraction tantrum for 45 minutes and hopes it blew over by the time he emerges from his room, he usually doesn't have the energy to throw another one, but it's unlikely he does anything unless threatened with a week of no gaming.

Argh! I think you mentioned those tantrums to me.

Is it getting any better?

jone70 said:

My brother and I had things we were required to do -- like when my mom was cleaning the house, she would let us choose, someone would have to dust, someone would have to vacuum. My brother was an absolute slob. My mother had to tell him constantly to clean his room, pick up his stuff, make his bed, etc. I was the complete opposite (e.g. had separate piggy banks for different denominations of money, always made my bed, organized my sock drawer by color) so I can't offer much advice in that regard.

I don't remember getting an allowance but we both earned money through 4H and summer jobs from the time we were 9 or 10. I was babysitting regularly by 11 or 12, and then worked summer jobs from 13 on so I RARELY asked my parents for money.

However, I got into A LOT of trouble in high school. My parents would threaten to ground me, take away phone privledges, etc. but I didn't care. The ONLY thing that worked was for them to threaten to make me quit the basketball team.

I think they should have to do chores for no allowence, then have the opportunity to do extra work around the house for extra perks -- stay up an hour later, extra gaming time, $$. If they don't do their chores take away something you KNOW they don't want to give up.

You are not there to be their buddy, you are their to teach them to be responsible, decent adults.

Thanks Jone!

Before I left for my superbowl get-together, I decided to clean up just a bit. I wound up spending an HOUR finding all sorts of garbage hidden in various spots in the room. I blew a gasket & thankfully they weren't around. So I piled a giant mound of stuff in the middle of the room...clothes, toys, trash, you name it. They came home to a sign posted on their door that read; "No TV, no video games, no laptops, no tablets until this room is 100% clean!" - I told them that since it was late, they could do it tomorrow.

WELL...lemme tell you...they worked their butts off cleaning that freakin' mess until after midnight.

PurpleJedi said:

ZombieKitten said:

I got one kid very much like this,

the eldest can be co-erced if I mention the magic word "privileges" which he knows I will simply remove. Littlest one just throws a distraction tantrum for 45 minutes and hopes it blew over by the time he emerges from his room, he usually doesn't have the energy to throw another one, but it's unlikely he does anything unless threatened with a week of no gaming.

Argh! I think you mentioned those tantrums to me.

Is it getting any better?

That's the middle kid I told you about, he's still the same, I wouldn't call his tantrums, since he can't control them and they aren't deliberate. Meltdowns is probably more accurate. His feelings are so strong he can't think or calm down.

jon1967 said:

Its not as ez as it sounds. Dont give an inch be hard its for the greater good. Theyre gonna whine but be firm no matter what.

I agree, they're constantly testing boundaries.

This morning (they are home from school - we're getting a bit of a snowstorm right now) I told them to get up by 9:00, have breakfast, and then go outside and shovel. "I don't want to see your 72 year old grandfather shoveling snow!" I barked at them.

SURPRISINGLY they didn't moan and complain the way they did the last time. Christian (being the wise-ass that he is) replied with; "I don't want to see your 12 year old son shoveling snow either."
But then they agreed that they're going to go do it.

Without me yelling. So either I won the battle the last snowstorm and they know they aren't getting their way...or...they...may be placating me...since they know I'm at work...

nursev said:

PurpleJedi said:

I had a twenty minute argument with my youngest about cleaning his room. "Why? It's just going to get dirty anyway. It makes no sense. Where am I supposed to fit these clothes? Etc. Etc." After a while my heads starts spinning and I start yelling and threatening.

I told him, "Grandma never had to explain herself. She said do something, and I'd do it."

I don't know...

they want you to reason and explain grandma just broke out that switch

Watch a program about hoarders with him.

[Edited 2/3/14 9:24am]

It sounds that you decided that things had to change and you told them to obey your changes.


Depending on your kid, they will resent having to do what you say "just because".

They are not toddlers anymore, so don't treat them like toddlers.


What helps is to involve the kids. Discuss with them that you all can function if the household chores get done. And that they are old enough now to share responsebility.

Make it a thing of becoming more adult, in stead of a punishment.

Then make a list together with all of you (including grandma) of what kind of chores there are.

All of them.

And let everybody add something to the list, and the rest have to refrain from commenting!!!

When you have the complete list,

You can make cards of every chore.

Every body picks a chore that they like.

Children first.

Then round 2

Again, every body picks a chore.

Then, in the end see if you all agree on what chores you got and if everybody is content.

Surely, you already pick a date for the next week, to evaluate how the chores went.

So, everybody does their own chore and at the next meeting, everybody has a say about how their chores went.

Did they do it? If not, why not? Don't they know how to do it?

Discuss it all if somebody is slacking.

Maybe that person can trade chores with somebody else.

So, make sure the meetings are fun, and decide together what kind of rewards or punishments you want to associate with the chores.

So, everybody will choose their own punsihments and the group decides whether that is reasonable or not.

You have a fun family meetings, and the kids realize that they are not toddlers anymore.

They get heard, and they get responsebilities.


I think that negotiating, listening and especially talking without blaming eachother is the key to a fair division of household labor.

Anecdote:


When my friend established the family rules for diner with her kids (then 3 and 5),

she let the kids start with coming up with the rules.

3-year old girl was in a phase that when she was at home, she wanted to walk around naked without clothes.

First rule she shouted:


No naked bums at the table!

They made a beautiful big paper with the diner rules,

decorating it together.

And hung it up.

Every time I saw that first rule, I cracked up.

ZombieKitten said:

PurpleJedi said:

Argh! I think you mentioned those tantrums to me.

Is it getting any better?

That's the middle kid I told you about, he's still the same, I wouldn't call his tantrums, since he can't control them and they aren't deliberate. Meltdowns is probably more accurate. His feelings are so strong he can't think or calm down.

Bless him.

i don't agree with kids having chores.

I was never given chores myself because my mum said that i'd spend most my life doing them! she was still making my bed until i left home, she was an amazing mum, the best i have to say that it didn't make me any less independent or has hindered me in life.

i remember a friend of mine who had chores when she got in from school, my mum frowned upon it & said it was because her mother was lazy!..

my own kids make their own beds but i am guilty of remaking them

my daughter had a montessori education, the philosophy promotes independence but suggests that kids will instinctively try to be independen anyway so no amount of nagging them will help a lazy fucker! t i just found this, it might assist with anyone that's confused

[Edited 2/3/14 9:54am]

PurpleJedi said:

A while back one of them told me I should give them an allowance for them to do stuff around the house. I told them that I am NOT paying them to do things that they need to be doing ANYWAY.

But I realize that incentives work, so I am giving each one $20/week to cover "lunch". Lunch at school is half that amount, so they can start saving $10/week. More if they decide to pack a lunch from home.

I already enact punishments. Last Tuesday for example, I asked my daughter to clean up the dirty plate she left in the living room. TWICE. She did not, so I took away her laptop.

I do like the idea of giving them choices, but I can just see fights erupting when 2 or more decide they want the same chore or no one wants a certain one...maybe revolving chores as someone stated.

Keep it coming! I need to do this tomorrow morning so that when they come home from mom's, they'll have their charts.

That's a good one.

Did you discuss that with them?

Because I think that how to handle your needs, your exorbitant needs and your money is als very valuable thing to learn kids.


My dad has raised me with a good sense about money.

He tought me it is important to save and make sure that you invest money in a house and things that keep their value. He tought me that money buys freedom and independance.

He also taught me that if you don't need a lot, you are free to spend your time doing what you think is important, because you don't need to work hard in order to meet any luxureous wishes.

I am still very thankful for those lessons.

I did wish he taught me more about finances though.

You know, insurances, what life costs, how much savings you need, how and what goals to achieve and how to save up for that.......

PurpleJedi said:

Dave1992 said:

What I can probably contribute is, because my childhood is not too far away and that I'm also part of the internet generation, I know that sometimes nothing might help.

When I decided I didn't want to do something, I simply didn't do it. No amount of threat or explanation could have changed my mind. And as I got older and brighter and stronger (mentally and physically), from about 12 onwards, I completely decided to make my own rules and lost all kind of "blind respect" I had for my mother. If I decided it wasn't time to clean my room yet, because I had other priorities, I simply knew it was the right decision. And I wouldn't listen to anybody esle just because they were older.

It was only when my mother moved away and I decided to stay in Vienna, with my dad, when I became more disciplined and determined about organising my life properly. I had to sleep on my own for the first couple of months, until my father would finish refurbishing my grandfather's house, so he could also move and we could finally live together. His place was too small for the both of us and my mother was already gone. He came over during the day and made sure I had enough food, but he wasn't the master cook my mother was, he didn't just take my laundry and washed it without me knowing it, like my mother did, so I had to take care of myself mostly. Those 2-3 months made me grow up so quickly, I honestly don't know what else could. I was 15.


What I'm trying to say is, don't blame yourself and don't blame your children if it doesn't work out straight away and if they don't acknowledge your authority as much as you would wish they did. I'm sure they are intelligent and decent, because they have a nice dad (as I was, thanks to my upbringing), so there's not much of a risk they'll trail off completely. Let them find their feet and let them think for themselves. Offer to be there all the time, be a guiding friend, but if they don't understand why it is better to clean up your room, they probably won't do it. Children nowadays grow up way quicker than a couple of decades ago and they have learned to question everything and everybody, which makes life more difficult for their parents, but ultimately is a very good thing.

Thanks for the input Dave, I appreciate it.

I am not going to back off though...whether or not they think it's justified or worthy, I will demand certain things. I do agree (and hope to all that's good) that they have enough of a solid foundation that they will eventually be solid, productive, decent adults. But if I don't keep pushing I feel I'm not doing my job.

Example; my oldest (15) is a gamer. He could spend ALL DAY- from the break of dawn to the dead of night - playing video games. If I let him.
So...because I don't want to see him become a thirtysomething stoner in my basement whose only goal in life is to reach Level 300 on Halo...I force him to turn it off. To go read a book (the HORROR!). To go take a SHOWER!!!

I don't want to seem despotic, but I am the adult, and ultimately their success or failure in life will be largely influenced by my actions, deeds & words. Just as you are who you are - independent, confident, educated - largely because of your folks. If your parents had been slobs, underachievers, thieves, etc., you would undoubtedly be the same today.

Some things I don't understand...both the ex & I have a healthy love of reading...and all 3 kids have to be PUSHED to read books.


So I'm putting together my chores list. I will go over it with them when they come home. Now I have to stick to my guns and be consistent.

I think you are doing a great job.

And it's essential that they learn this stuff. They better learn to discipline themselves now, than having to teach that themselves when they are older. Same thing with planning tasks. If you get together during family meetings and discuss how they plan, they can learn a lot from eachother and you. And I love official family meetings. Because it's important that they get a voice and that they are respected enough to have an adult explain and discuss the family rules with them.

The one chore I still don't do-is make my bed, unless guests come over!

Just use the Jedi mind trick on them

dJJ said:

I think you are doing a great job.

And it's essential that they learn this stuff. They better learn to discipline themselves now, than having to teach that themselves when they are older. Same thing with planning tasks. If you get together during family meetings and discuss how they plan, they can learn a lot from eachother and you. And I love official family meetings. Because it's important that they get a voice and that they are respected enough to have an adult explain and discuss the family rules with them.

Thanks!

I have not had an official "family meeting" yet (besides the talks in the car or in their room).
I do need to sit them down.

Also - I wish that my parents had instilled fiscal responsibility in me. That's one thing that I am woefully deficient in.

excited said:

i don't agree with kids having chores.

I was never given chores myself because my mum said that i'd spend most my life doing them! she was still making my bed until i left home, she was an amazing mum, the best i have to say that it didn't make me any less independent or has hindered me in life.

i remember a friend of mine who had chores when she got in from school, my mum frowned upon it & said it was because her mother was lazy!..

my own kids make their own beds but i am guilty of remaking them

my daughter had a montessori education, the philosophy promotes independence but suggests that kids will instinctively try to be independen anyway so no amount of nagging them will help a lazy fucker! t i just found this, it might assist with anyone that's confused

[Edited 2/3/14 9:54am]

That's a very concise list!

kewlschool said:

The one chore I still don't do-is make my bed, unless guests come over!

I had a twenty minute debate with them about making their beds.

I think I lost that one.

kpowers said:

Just use the Jedi mind trick on them

Will not work on them...too strong-willed.

PurpleJedi said:

dJJ said:

I think you are doing a great job.

And it's essential that they learn this stuff. They better learn to discipline themselves now, than having to teach that themselves when they are older. Same thing with planning tasks. If you get together during family meetings and discuss how they plan, they can learn a lot from eachother and you. And I love official family meetings. Because it's important that they get a voice and that they are respected enough to have an adult explain and discuss the family rules with them.

Thanks!

I have not had an official "family meeting" yet (besides the talks in the car or in their room).
I do need to sit them down.

Also - I wish that my parents had instilled fiscal responsibility in me. That's one thing that I am woefully deficient in.

I think having a short weekly family meeting is a good habit to develop.

Because you'r all up to date with eachother every week.

And I think it's good toand you can discuss practical matters with eachother, at a set time.

When you discuss them when somebody is (not) doing chores, the irritation, frustration, time pressure or another negative emotion on both sides prevents any constructive negotiation.

Everybody has a change to get heard. I think that if kids are old enough to help out with the household chores, they are also old enough to be heard and taken seriously.


Make it fun for everybody. Make it 'official' meetings by appointing somebody who has to guard the time, and somebody else who has to guard if everybody gets time to speak and gets heard, appoint one person in charge of drinks and one in charge of snacks.

And make sure everybody feels save to speak their minds. So, no negative comments, grins or degoratory jokes when somebody speaks up.


Do you think they are up for it?

PurpleJedi said:

LadyCasanova said:

I think chores are important for kids, they instill a sense of responsibility and order.

When I was younger, I did chores. While I did have to help around the house, I could keep
my room however I wanted with the reminder that:

1) all holes that I wanted to put in the walls had to be pre-approved
2) dirty dishes and food could not be stored in my room.
3) the carpet needed to stay unstained

4) the walls had to stay their original color
5) nothing could be growing mold
6) the house was a no-smoke zone, including my room. No fire.

My mom always said that if I wanted to live in a disorganized room, she would let me...but the
living room was everyones space, so my shoes needed to go IN MY ROOM!

Some suggestions.
1) (Depending on how many chores you wish to assign) Choose a few age appropriate chores that
make since for each of your individual children and let them pick which ones they do. This way,
they are still a part of the decision making but your needs/expectations are being met.

2) If you decide to pay them an allowance, give it to them consistantly. A chore chart
can be used so that things are visible for the children and you can see who did what. Those little
foil stars are cheap and you can use them to mark the chart. I would suggest actually handing
them the allowance, with refrence to chart, so they make the connection.

3) Stay consistent

4) Don't be afraid to re-work the system, it takes time.

5) Don't start yelling or coming un-done if they don't do what you ask. Negative behavior
works both ways and you will only end up feeding off each others response. You want to be
in control.

Awesome! Thank you.

Yes, I think your mother was wise to make a set of rules about your room, and leave the rest up to you. It's important to have the sense of empowerment and control over your own personal space. No matter what age.

PurpleJedi said:

kpowers said:

Just use the Jedi mind trick on them

Will not work on them...too strong-willed.

Then get obi wan, he's your only hope

nursev said:

kids now days wont do anything without being threatened when I was young all my grandmother had to do was look at me n I'd get to it

Seeing my Dad's belt got my ass moving.

dJJ said:

PurpleJedi said:

Thanks!

I have not had an official "family meeting" yet (besides the talks in the car or in their room).
I do need to sit them down.

Also - I wish that my parents had instilled fiscal responsibility in me. That's one thing that I am woefully deficient in.

I think having a short weekly family meeting is a good habit to develop.

Because you'r all up to date with eachother every week.

And I think it's good toand you can discuss practical matters with eachother, at a set time.

When you discuss them when somebody is (not) doing chores, the irritation, frustration, time pressure or another negative emotion on both sides prevents any constructive negotiation.

Everybody has a change to get heard. I think that if kids are old enough to help out with the household chores, they are also old enough to be heard and taken seriously.


Make it fun for everybody. Make it 'official' meetings by appointing somebody who has to guard the time, and somebody else who has to guard if everybody gets time to speak and gets heard, appoint one person in charge of drinks and one in charge of snacks.

And make sure everybody feels save to speak their minds. So, no negative comments, grins or degoratory jokes when somebody speaks up.


Do you think they are up for it?

I'm going to try.

excited said:

i don't agree with kids having chores.

I was never given chores myself because my mum said that i'd spend most my life doing them! she was still making my bed until i left home, she was an amazing mum, the best i have to say that it didn't make me any less independent or has hindered me in life.

i remember a friend of mine who had chores when she got in from school, my mum frowned upon it & said it was because her mother was lazy!..

my own kids make their own beds but i am guilty of remaking them

my daughter had a montessori education, the philosophy promotes independence but suggests that kids will instinctively try to be independen anyway so no amount of nagging them will help a lazy fucker! t i just found this, it might assist with anyone that's confused

[Edited 2/3/14 9:54am]

Welcome to 1929. A 2 year old carrying firewood and setting the table.

The only rule I have in my house is, "you make the mess, you clean it up". It's simple common courtesy.

I do not believe that children should be made to do specific chores, I also do not believe in allowance. We help each other out, that's just the way it is. No arguing, no making lists. It's just what you do together. We're a team.

JustErin said:

Welcome to 1929. A 2 year old carrying firewood and setting the table.

The only rule I have in my house is, "you make the mess, you clean it up". It's simple common courtesy.

I do not believe that children should be made to do specific chores, I also do not believe in allowance. We help each other out, that's just the way it is. No arguing, no making lists. It's just what you do together. We're a team.

Let me know how that works out when he's a teen and feels there's nothing wrong with leaving a half-eaten slice of pizza on the dresser for three days or leaving dirty underwear on the floor despite there being a hamper within arm's reach...or when there's a pile of empty chip bags on the floor that no one picks up because they're all pointing fingers at each other as to who actually ate the chips.

At some point when they outgrow the innate desire to please & do everything they're told (and most kids do when puberty starts rearing its ugly head), you have to make rules. My head nearly exploded the first time my oldest told me "no". Now I'm used to it and deal with it as a parent should...and exploring options for making them WANT to do what they are supposed to do without me browbeating them.