Graycap23 said:

RodeoSchro said:

Oh, Scottie Pippen DOES know what a Game 7 is.

It's the game that, when it's on the line, he refuses to go in because he's not getting the last shot.

Yes, Scottie Pippen knows EXACTLY what a Game 7 is.

That was NOT game 7.

It wasn't, but there was another game 7 Pip would rather forget.

[img:$uid]http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0162fcb41b46970d-320wi[/img:$uid]

And there is at least one Game 7 BOTH MJ and Pip would rather forget.

[img:$uid]http://readjack.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/jordanthomas.jpg?w=255&h=300[/img:$uid]

Not directing this at you, GC, but just a general observation. To hear some folks tell it, the NBA was founded in 1991 and Jordan never lost a big game.

What Magic fans said the same thing about MJ in the early 90s, and what MJ fans said the same thing about Kobe in the early 00s, are the same things MJ AND Kobe fans are saying about LBJ now. They not only forget their history, but they don't even wait until the story is over.

The bottom line is, LBJ probably has at least 7 prime/prime-ish years left. If he wins a few more, he's in the Conversation.

[Edited 6/21/13 12:01pm]

Well I feel whether Lebron did one thing that has warranted criticism or two things, he STILL did something that warrants some of the criticism he gets.....period. Now maybe he doesnt deserve ALL the hate... I can admit that but I am not going to sit here and say that Lebron has not done or said arrogant things like the swollen Miami or Lebron defenders will have you think. Its pretty mind blowing how some actually think Lebron has done NOTHING that warrants ANY of the criticism he receives. Once again, there was NOTHING wrong with him leaving Cleaveland the backlash came in HOW HE DID IT with the special and making a big deal about it and YES I thought that warrant some criticism. People switch teams ALL THE TIME but dont make specials or gloat about it or not tell the owner.

What Kobe or MJ has done is irrelevant in this conversation because it still doesnt change the fact that Lebron HAS done some arrogant things that warrants criticism whether its more or less than previous players. Hypothetically, MJ could have did 50 arrogant things and Lebron just maybe 1 BUT it still doesnt change the fact that Lebron STILL has done something that warrants some criticism. Michael Jordan wasnt no angel, Magic etc but you can take this to the bank, they would have NEVER gone to another team with other hall of famers or superstars and made a big deal about it with a special and thats makes a difference.


Sure, but we don't remember Magic for getting a coach fired. We don't remember MJ punching teammates. I think it's time we relegate The Decision to history and let it go. Even as a Laker fan, I can say that what LBJ did kind of pales to what Magic did in getting a coach fired and Kobe's immaturity playing a key part in destroying a chance at a mega-dynasty.

There players were drafted or traded on their team (which is surreal when you think about it because they had like 5 or 4 hall of famers or superstars on their team). They didnt "buy a team" just to win a championship like Miami did just saying.

Do you think Magic or Michael would have stuck around if they were in LBJ's shoes in Cleveland? I don't. Had Pip and Ho Grant not been drafted in 1986, Jordan might have left Chicago. Kobe had the most gifted center and greatest coach ever and STILL would have left if they'd stayed.



namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

That was NOT game 7.

It wasn't, but there was another game 7 Pip would rather forget.

[img:$uid]http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0162fcb41b46970d-320wi[/img:$uid]

And there is at least one Game 7 BOTH MJ and Pip would rather forget.

[img:$uid]http://readjack.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/jordanthomas.jpg?w=255&h=300[/img:$uid]

Not directing this at you, GC, but just a general observation. To hear some folks tell it, the NBA was founded in 1991 and Jordan never lost a big game.

What Magic fans said the same thing about MJ in the early 90s, and what MJ fans said the same thing about Kobe in the early 00s, are the same things MJ AND Kobe fans are saying about LBJ now. They not only forget their history, but they don't even wait until the story is over.

The bottom line is, LBJ probably has at least 7 prime/prime-ish years left. If he wins a few more, he's in the Conversation.

[Edited 6/21/13 12:01pm]

I understand your point.

The comparisons are rather pointless.

Mj is Mj, Lebron is Lebron.

Graycap23 said:

RodeoSchro said:

Oh, Scottie Pippen DOES know what a Game 7 is.

It's the game that, when it's on the line, he refuses to go in because he's not getting the last shot.

Yes, Scottie Pippen knows EXACTLY what a Game 7 is.

That was NOT game 7.

Well, OK. Pippen pussed out in Game 3. I stand corrected.

Then he cost the Bulls Game 5 by fouling Hubert Davis with a couple seconds to go, letting Davis win the game with two free throws.

Then he chunked up 19 bricks in Game 7, and Bulls lost by 10.

Graycap23 said:

I understand your point.

The comparisons are rather pointless.

Mj is Mj, Lebron is Lebron.

True, yet the Conversation will continue.

RodeoSchro said:

Graycap23 said:

That was NOT game 7.

Well, OK. Pippen pussed out in Game 3. I stand corrected.

Then he cost the Bulls Game 5 by fouling Hubert Davis with a couple seconds to go, letting Davis win the game with two free throws.

Then he chunked up 19 bricks in Game 7, and Bulls lost by 10.

Your memory is quite faulty.

Hue Hollins made that GHOST foul call on Scotty seconds after the ball banged off the rims.

Replays shows ZERO contact on that shot. There was no foul......just a foul call.

One of the worst calls in NBA history.

Please show me the foul on this play.

That angle of the so called foul does NOT show a foul.

Your bias against Scotty is embarrassing.

Graycap23 said:

One of the worst calls in NBA history.

Kings/Lakers 2002 conference finals - take your pick.

namepeace said:

Sure, but we don't remember Magic for getting a coach fired. We don't remember MJ punching teammates. I think it's time we relegate The Decision to history and let it go. Even as a Laker fan, I can say that what LBJ did kind of pales to what Magic did in getting a coach fired and Kobe's immaturity playing a key part in destroying a chance at a mega-dynasty.

I dont think Jordan or Magic would have disrespected their fans, coach and owner in the way Lebron did. I think HOW he did it and the way he handled it speaks more about his character and at the end of the day me and you both know that image and how you present yourself means alot to the public. Whether its fake or not people like and want to root for the "good guys" I think its a cop out to bring up what Jordan and Magic did to some how justify Lebrons actions. If Jordan and Magic got criticized why cant people criticize Lebron especially if its justified? I feel the way he left cleaveland and some of his arrogant comments is far greater than what those other players have done. Because people look at Lebron and see someone that had to go to another team of superstars just to get a championship (not that there is anything wrong with that) but I think its worth mentioning when he makes arrogant comments about his game, I think its worth mentioning when people compare him to Jordan and Jordan played against teams with 3-4 hall of famers and superstars and still beat them in game 4's, 5's.

The way the league is now it would be much harder for people to forget when they are trying to market Lebron as the greatest player of all time. Yes they did the same with Jordan but Jordan had 6 rings lol He also did not have to persuade other players to join a team to win his first championship, ya know?




Do you think Magic or Michael would have stuck around if they were in LBJ's shoes in Cleveland? I don't.

Had Pip and Ho Grant not been drafted in 1986, Jordan might have left Chicago. Kobe had the most gifted center and greatest coach ever and STILL would have left if they'd stayed.



But they did not always have superstar players around them. And you can correct me and in fact please correct me because I wasnt even born during those eras lol But just with learning about the history of the sport most of those players were drafted. Jordan didnt make a super plan to make a super dream team. They BUILT a team from the ground up and the competition and talent was alot more superior than what it is now. Miami Heat "Dream Team" ....shit Chicago and all those teams back in the day would have shut it down in a GAME 4 or 5 against TODAYS Miami. I dont think its fair to say what Jordan would or would have did because for one thing, Lebron doesnt have Jordans superhuman talent and ability to really be cohesive with his team. Jordan had that at the same age Lebron is now. Jordan didnt choke, Jordan didnt play game 7, Jordan has 6 deserving rings that he was awarded against more competitive teams. He did not have all those players on his team. He played AGAINST them but then again there were like 3 superstar players on MULTIPLE teams. Its not like that now. So I guess Lebron would seem like the greatest when you dont have much competition. Miami finally played some competition this year that they were VERYYYYYYY blessed and lucky to have won. All this SA bashing in here is hilarious lol Do you know what Chicago or Lakers from the late 80s early 90s would have done to Indiana, Miami and a "older" SA? And I love SA but Im just saying. There would not have been Game 7's. They would not have won by luck or because of the help of dirty refs. "The Dream Team" yea whatever...

It's silly and pointless comparing Jordan with James. They have different skill sets, and play different positions. LeBron doesn't have Jordan's mid-range game, but he does everything else (post-up, defend, pass, etc.). The player you compare Jordan to is Kobe Bryant - both shooting guards, both prolific scorers and both have the 'assassin mentality' I mentioned earlier.

I agree with WFAN's Mike Francesca - LeBron James is a bigger version of Oscar Robertson.

iaminparties said:

phunkdaddy said:

Abdul said: 3peat? Not with the current supporting cast. A fully healthy Pacers team would drag them next season.

The Heat will 3-peat.They toyed with the Pacers.Only the Spurs really pushed them.

They toyed with the Pacers in 7 games?

Graycap23 said:

RodeoSchro said:

Well, OK. Pippen pussed out in Game 3. I stand corrected.

Then he cost the Bulls Game 5 by fouling Hubert Davis with a couple seconds to go, letting Davis win the game with two free throws.

Then he chunked up 19 bricks in Game 7, and Bulls lost by 10.

Your memory is quite faulty.

Hue Hollins made that GHOST foul call on Scotty seconds after the ball banged off the rims.

Replays shows ZERO contact on that shot. There was no foul......just a foul call.

One of the worst calls in NBA history.

Please show me the foul on this play.

That angle of the so called foul does NOT show a foul.

Your bias against Scotty is embarrassing.

Dude, your own video shows that Pippen fouled him and shows it in all its glory. Heck, there's a pop-up box and everything! Start watching at 2:05 of the video.

LMAO, now I know why you don't post links very often.

Your buttkissing for a well-known girly-man is what's embarrassing. Does he owe you money or something?

Let's go HEEEAAAT!!!

[img:$uid]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/delivertheword/sports/heatpaper2_zps8ee64488.jpg[/img:$uid]

Is everybody happy?


[img:$uid]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/delivertheword/sports/1371788799000-USP-NBA-Finals-San-Antonio-Spurs-at-Miami-Heat-030-1306210032_4_3_rx513_c680x510_zpsf4ca532a.jpg[/img:$uid]


All hail KING JAMES!

[img:$uid]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/delivertheword/sports/billrussell_zpsd7007287.jpg[/img:$uid]


Hope I can make it to the parade Monday...

RodeoSchro said:

Stupid Manu Ginobli blew that game for the Spurs.

First, his incredibly cheap shot on LeBron James woke James up and made him mad. It was from that point on that James started dominating. I am positive the spark taht Ginobli's horribly cheap shot gave him was the spark that lit his fire. Stupid Ginobli.

And then, the last possession of the game. No way that play was supposed to be Ginobli doing his best Adrian Peterson imitation. He took about six steps and had the ball cradled like he was about to pose for the Heisman. The ONLY outcome he could have been looking for was a foul but not even Joey Crawford is going to call a foul in that situation. Stupid Ginobli.

Pop better have a heart-to-heart with Ginobli today.

On another note: Does anyone else think the Spurs look quicker than the Heat? To me, they are much quicker.

Pah! The only one I was really worried about out there was Tony Parker...he looked like Fran damn Tarkenton out there until last night,

uPtoWnNY said:

It's silly and pointless comparing Jordan with James. They have different skill sets, and play different positions. LeBron doesn't have Jordan's mid-range game, but he does everything else (post-up, defend, pass, etc.). The player you compare Jordan to is Kobe Bryant - both shooting guards, both prolific scorers and both have the 'assassin mentality' I mentioned earlier.

I agree with WFAN's Mike Francesca - LeBron James is a bigger version of Oscar Robertson.

Thank you!

Astasheiks said:

I Like how LeBron & D Wade say u can take photos of us unlike Prince's butt. hee hee

http://worldredeye.com/20...-at-story/

LOL! Why is Drake in so many pics?

phunkdaddy said:

Abdul said:

San Antonio will be kicking themselves all summer over this one, like I said in my above post all they had to do in Game 6 was get ONE rebound on Miami's last two possesions and they would be champs.Congrats to the Heat, let's see if they can three-peat

3peat? Not with the current supporting cast. A fully healthy Pacers team would drag them next season.

In today's league they can. I'm still not solded on the Pacers, they gotta show me first.

RodeoSchro said:

Abdul said:

phunkdaddy said:

Abdul said: 3peat? Not with the current supporting cast. A fully healthy Pacers team would drag them next season.

In today's league they can. I'm still not solded on the Pacers, they gotta show me first.

They also have to deal with 2 other teams that flat out don't like them. Celtics get a

healthy Rondo back and Bulls a healthy Rose. I stand by what i say, unless the Heat

retool their roster they won't 3 peat. They won't run roughshod through the East with

this shoddy roster around Bron, Wade, Bosh, and Birdman.

babynoz said:

Astasheiks said:

I Like how LeBron & D Wade say u can take photos of us unlike Prince's butt. hee hee

http://worldredeye.com/20...-at-story/

LOL! Why is Drake in so many pics?

Him and LeBron are homies.

phunkdaddy said:

Abdul said:

In today's league they can. I'm still not solded on the Pacers, they gotta show me first.

They also have to deal with 2 other teams that flat out don't like them. Celtics get a

healthy Rondo back and Bulls a healthy Rose. I stand by what i say, unless the Heat

retool their roster they won't 3 peat. They won't run roughshod through the East with

this shoddy roster around Bron, Wade, Bosh, and Birdman.

There will be a line out the door 4 old vets at the end of their career trying 2 sign in Miami.

Plus they have a tax advantage their.

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

One of the worst calls in NBA history.

Kings/Lakers 2002 conference finals - take your pick.

That one as well.

I can't imagine why Doc Rivers would want to work for a jackass like Donald Sterling.

Nuggets hired Brian Shaw.

Scottie Pippen's in trouble for beating up some dude who asked him for an autograph. Pippen said no, dude supposedly said something back, and shit got physical.

J.R. Smith will opt for free agency. Interesting to see if another team gives him an offer he can't refuse.

uPtoWnNY said:

I can't imagine why Doc Rivers would want to work for a jackass like Donald Sterling.

Nuggets hired Brian Shaw.

Scottie Pippen's in trouble for beating up some dude who asked him for an autograph. Pippen said no, dude supposedly said something back, and shit got physical.

J.R. Smith will opt for free agency. Interesting to see if another team gives him an offer he can't refuse.

Dude was drunk and would NOT leave Scottie along the whole time he was having dinner.

I dont think Jordan or Magic would have disrespected their fans, coach and owner in the way Lebron did. I think HOW he did it and the way he handled it speaks more about his character and at the end of the day me and you both know that image and how you present yourself means alot to the public. Whether its fake or not people like and want to root for the "good guys" I think its a cop out to bring up what Jordan and Magic did to some how justify Lebrons actions. If Jordan and Magic got criticized why cant people criticize Lebron especially if its justified?

***

I agree with the fact that people should let it go as well but some of the comments that Lebron says doesnt help in "allowing people to forget". He makes alot of arrogant comments sometimes and then the Jordan comparisions doesnt help either.

The point wasn't that LBJ didn't deserve criticism; the point was whether it's time to move on, and we agree on that. He's paid the price, but I agree, referring to himself as King James doesn't help. His comments now he sees as expressing validation, others see it as confirming his arrogance. He'll live with The Decision, but in al fairness, he (mostly) doesn't invite those MJ comparisons, media and fans do that. Because this generation of NBA fans, like every the Magic-Bird and MJ generations before it, wants one of its own to be known as the GOAT.

I feel the way he left cleaveland and some of his arrogant comments is far greater than what those other players have done. Because people look at Lebron and see someone that had to go to another team of superstars just to get a championship (not that there is anything wrong with that) but I think its worth mentioning when he makes arrogant comments about his game, I think its worth mentioning when people compare him to Jordan and Jordan played against teams with 3-4 hall of famers and superstars and still beat them in game 4's, 5's.

Every superstar has an ego. LBJ's wasn't justified for years, because he'd front-run and show up opponents in the regular season but would get bounced in the playoffs.

MJ didn't leave because he didn't have to. Pip and Ho Grant blossomed at the right time . . . and the right coach came along. Magic straight up asked for a trade but they changed out Riles for Westhead.

We can compare quality of competition and I'd generally agree. The MJ Bulls went 6 games with every Finals opponent but the Lakers, who were NOT in their prime. Each of his opponents had at least 1 HOFer (Magic-Worthy in LA, Drex in POR, Barkley in PHX, Payton in SEA and Malone-Stockton in UT). They beat the Bad Boys, Reggie Miller's Pacers, and Ewing's Knicks in the ECFs. But MJ lost his share of series to the Bad Boys and the C's.


Magic's Lakers beat Dr. J's Sixers twice (in 6 and a sweep, IIRC), Bird's C's twice (both in 6) and the Bad Boys once (in 7). He also lost to each of those teams plus MJ's Bulls in the Finals, and mainly because of injuries was swept twice by the Sixers and Bad Boys. Magic lost a Game 7/closeout game or 2 as well.

LBJ beat the Big 3 C's in the 12 ECF, Durant's Thunder in the 12 Finals and the Big 3 Spurs (undefeated in Finals play) in 13. He lost his share of playoffs as the favorite. He was beaten by those Spurs in the 07 Finals and the Dirk-(last legs) Kidd Mavs in the 11 Finals

In terms of quality of competition, Magic stands above MJ, and both stand above LBJ. But LBJ has beaten and been beaten by HOF competition.

The way the league is now it would be much harder for people to forget when they are trying to market Lebron as the greatest player of all time. Yes they did the same with Jordan but Jordan had 6 rings lol He also did not have to persuade other players to join a team to win his first championship, ya know?

Imagine if "the Internets" and social media had existed in the 80s. Plus, for nearly 30 years, Nike has marketed MJ as a god, forget GOAT. And they did so BEFORE Jordan had won *anything*. The resume followed the hype with Jordan. JUST LIKE what's happening with LBJ now. (Wasn't a big concern for Bird and Magic, who won titles early).

MJ had a far better supporting cast in 90-91 than LBJ did before he joined the Heat . . . in a SMALLER league. You're correct but context is important.

But they did not always have superstar players around them. And you can correct me and in fact please correct me because I wasnt even born during those eras lol But just with learning about the history of the sport most of those players were drafted. Jordan didnt make a super plan to make a super dream team. They BUILT a team from the ground up and the competition and talent was alot more superior than what it is now.

Magic's supporting cast Year 1: Kareem, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Michael Cooper. Pretty good. The Worthy pick was acquired later.

Bird's supporting cast Year 1 included Dave Cowens and Nate Archibald. McHale and Ainge would join soon thereafter, and Parish and Johnson joined via free agency.

MJ's team was organically grown.

But the dynamics of the league is loads different than it was. Today, the players have more leverage to move where they want to and are more collaborative. We can't say that MJ, Magic or Bird wouldn't do the same thing in LBJ's shoes.

LBJ also didn't have Jerry West, Red Auerbach or even Jerry Krause running CLE's front office (though he did have some say in decisions).

Miami Heat "Dream Team" ....shit Chicago and all those teams back in the day would have shut it down in a GAME 4 or 5 against TODAYS Miami. I dont think its fair to say what Jordan would or would have did because for one thing, Lebron doesnt have Jordans superhuman talent and ability to really be cohesive with his team.

Come on, mjs. LeBron James has otherworldly talent. MJ's criticism in his career was that he was TOO selfish (I remember, I grew up in that era). The knock on LBJ is that he wasn't and isn't selfish enough. Any great team from the 80's or 90's could have and probably would have beaten this Heat team. But also recall Jordan didn't start winning titles until the Lakers, C's and Pistons were i) over the hill, ii) broken up, or iii) dissolved via retirement.

Jordan had that at the same age Lebron is now. Jordan didnt choke, Jordan didnt play game 7, Jordan has 6 deserving rings that he was awarded against more competitive teams. He did not have all those players on his team. He played AGAINST them but then again there were like 3 superstar players on MULTIPLE teams. Its not like that now.

Jordan did play Game 7s and lost. He had teams filled with All-Stars and at LEAST 1 HOFer. You can discount the quality of MIA's competition in a diluted league but you can't discount the fact that MIA beat a Spurs team that had never lost in the Finals, with 3 HOFers of their own.

So I guess Lebron would seem like the greatest when you dont have much competition. Miami finally played some competition this year that they were VERYYYYYYY blessed and lucky to have won. All this SA bashing in here is hilarious lol Do you know what Chicago or Lakers from the late 80s early 90s would have done to Indiana, Miami and a "older" SA? And I love SA but Im just saying. There would not have been Game 7's. They would not have won by luck or because of the help of dirty refs. "The Dream Team" yea whatever...

MJ only beat one team that ever won a championship. And the quality of his competition in the 90's was nothing like it was in the 80's, when champs played champs for rings. I actually am using San An to make my point about the quality of LBJ's competition. I know what would have happened if the 80s Lakers or 90s Bulls played in today's league; I actually saw them play in their primes. Hell, the 2001 Lakers or 2005 Spurs would have destroyed this team. But let's not act like those teams didn't have their fair share of luck or always finished inferior teams quickly.

My main point is this: historical context demands we neither overrate nor underrate the Miami Heat or its franchise player. The pecking order is clear, the Heat are not the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics or Spurs of old. Nor is LBJ a top-5 player yet. Those resumes are still being built.

namepeace - Lakers won the '80 & '82 Finals in 6 games over Philly. In '83, Philly swept them.

uPtoWnNY said:

namepeace - Lakers won the '80 & '82 Finals in 6 games over Philly. In '83, Philly swept them.

Okay. I thought LA may have completed one sweep in 82.

namepeace said:

phunkdaddy said:

namepeace said:

Okay. I thought LA may have completed one sweep in 82.

Mr. Sixer was about to clear that up for you. The Lakers beat the Sixers in those 2 finals because Magic was just that good and Kareem was a matchup nightmare. That's why Philly got big Moses and that season Moses was the best player in the league and he wouldn't let Philly lose. The lakers dealt with injuries in the Finals against Philly with rookie Worthy going down and Bob McAdoo if iirc but the Sixers were just strong that year and would have still won this series in 6 at the most. An injured Magic hurt them more against the Pistons in 88.

LA beat Detroit in '88 to win back-to-back titles. Magic got hurt in the '89 Finals(Pat Riley running the team into the ground didn't help), otherwise it would have been a threepeat for the Lakers.

phunkdaddy said:

namepeace said:

Okay. I thought LA may have completed one sweep in 82.

Mr. Sixer was about to clear that up for you. The Lakers beat the Sixers in those 2 finals because Magic was just that good and Kareem was a matchup nightmare. That's why Philly got big Moses and that season Moses was the best player in the league and he wouldn't let Philly lose.

Of course Cap was the featured player in those early runs. But they don't get there without Magic.

The lakers dealt with injuries in the Finals against Philly with rookie Worthy going down and Bob McAdoo if iirc but the Sixers were just strong that year and would have still won this series in 6 at the most.

From top to bottom, the 83 Sixers were loaded and their title is not tainted by any stretch, because they were the best wire-to-wire that season.

But LA wasn't at full strength, which basically ended the series before it truly got started. We'll never truly know but it would have gone 6 at least with both teams at full strength.

An injured Magic hurt them more against the Pistons in 88.

My turn.

LA beat the Pistons in 88 (after winning 3 straight Game 7s). Injuries cost them a threepeat in the 89 Finals.

Magic went down midway through Game 2, and Byron Scott was lost in the last practice before the Finals started (hard foul by David Rivers took him out, I believe). Without their starting backcourt they got swept.

In terms of quality of competition, Magic stands above MJ, and both stand above LBJ. But LBJ has beaten and been beaten by HOF competition.

Where are all these Hall of famers that Lebron has played? Because as far as Im concerned he has not played any real competition. He played some this year and the NBA rigged it enough for him to win it.

Imagine if "the Internets" and social media had existed in the 80s. Plus, for nearly 30 years, Nike has marketed MJ as a god, forget GOAT.

Well thats because Jordan did alot for the league. Its one thing when someone forces you to be the face of a league (Lebron) its another when you actually changed the league (Jordan) which warrants big hype. Michael Jordan is not JUST a basketball player like Lebron. His impact is far greater than just a basketball player. His contribution is far greater as well. MJ is and was a cultural figure for those reasons... Lebron has not impacted the league in that way. It could have been 2036, 1916, etc MJ would have had the SAME impact. Also, people LIKED Jordan. People idolized him. People dont like Lebron and he is not admired in the same way because quite frankly he hasnt done anything that deserves any of that.

And they did so BEFORE Jordan had won *anything*. The resume followed the hype with Jordan. JUST LIKE what's happening with LBJ now.

He might not of had championships

but Jordan had shooting titles, Jordan knew how to close out, Jordan knew how to finish strong, Jordan made a significant impact on the league, Jordan built a team around him and the list goes. Its a really BIG difference and like you said previously they shouldnt be compared.

(Wasn't a big concern for Bird and Magic, who won titles early).

MJ had a far better supporting cast in 90-91 than LBJ did before he joined the Heat . . . in a SMALLER league. You're correct but context is important.

Your right the context is important which is why when you listed on these teams Lebron faced, I listed teams during Jordans era that could beat those teams. Regardless whether the league was smaller or bigger, the players were more talented and competitive than what it is now which you agreed with. Jordan had a better supporting cast because the players were more talented overall. It wasnt JUST his supporting cast that was good. The entire league was just better overall. He was apart of a great team that played ALOT of other great teams. I also think MJ did more for his team when it mattered more than what Lebron does (supporting cast or not).

Magic's supporting cast Year 1: Kareem, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Michael Cooper. Pretty good. The Worthy pick was acquired later.

Bird's supporting cast Year 1 included Dave Cowens and Nate Archibald. McHale and Ainge would join soon thereafter, and Parish and Johnson joined via free agency.

MJ's team was organically grown.

But the dynamics of the league is loads different than it was. Today, the players have more leverage to move where they want to and are more collaborative. We can't say that MJ, Magic or Bird wouldn't do the same thing in LBJ's shoes.

LBJ also didn't have Jerry West, Red Auerbach or even Jerry Krause running CLE's front office (though he did have some say in decisions).

Your right but do you think its fair to assume that MJ would have done the same thing Lebron did? It goes both ways. If thats your opinion then I have to respect that. I personally think he wouldnt because he didnt always have a supporting cast around him and despite that he still stayed and allowed his team to grow into that. He stuck by his team and helped them grow. Alot of people respect that and that makes a HUGE difference in terms of how people like or dislike you.

Jordan did play Game 7s and lost. He had teams filled with All-Stars and at LEAST 1 HOFer. You can discount the quality of MIA's competition in a diluted league but you can't discount the fact that MIA beat a Spurs team that had never lost in the Finals, with 3 HOFers of their own.

I dont think Miami was the better team and deserved to win this year and anybody who watched the series with a functional brain knows that (not directed at you but just saying). So I dont count rigged games.

MJ only beat one team that ever won a championship. And the quality of his competition in the 90's was nothing like it was in the 80's, when champs played champs for rings.

It still doesnt change the fact that he played harder competition than Lebron. He also was an overall better player.

I actually am using San An to make my point about the quality of LBJ's competition.

One team? Jordan played 4 and 5 teams and like I said earlier they really should not have won this year.

I know what would have happened if the 80s Lakers or 90s Bulls played in today's league; I actually saw them play in their primes. Hell, the 2001 Lakers or 2005 Spurs would have destroyed this team. But let's not act like those teams didn't have their fair share of luck or always finished inferior teams quickly.

That isnt the point though lol The point is they were far harder and more competitive than what it is out now. 90 percent of the time they won because they deserved too not because they got lucky or was helped by a ref.

My main point is this: historical context demands we neither overrate nor underrate the Miami Heat or its franchise player.

Really?? because it actually demands the opposite. This is also a big reason why people dont watch basketball anymore because everything is all staged and most of the players are not good. ( I hear this complaint the most from NBA fans that grew up watching it from your era) If the ball players and teams are not as talented and competitive than previous eras than why is it not fair to say that the teams today overall are not as good? Thats not suggesting ALL the teams sucks but just making an overall observation. I think its a fair and an accurate arguement that you even said you agreed with. Now TODAYs Miami is a good team........but they still need alot more ball players of there own and there not AS good as the media hypes them to be which we both saw this year. They barely beat Indiana and by the grace of God along with some help they beat the Spurs who really deserved this years championship. So taking all these things into consideration, I think its okay to say they are a tad overrated. Personally, I think they are more than just a a tad overrated lol buts thats my opinion). The same with Lebron.

The pecking order is clear, the Heat are not the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics or Spurs of old. Nor is LBJ a top-5 player yet. Those resumes are still being built.

AGREE

By the way, I really appreciate all the mini facts.