Timmy84 said:

Ottensen said:

I've seen that just today on the comments section on Yahoo! about Beyonce's Superbowl Performance. A lot of people are mad about the size of her thighs and butt, and her pulling off those Bob Fosse moves for "Single Ladies" . Seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation if you are a singer in the public eye.

Basically. Whitney wasn't "black enough" and Beyonce is "too black".

People need to shut the fuck up.

I don't give a damn how many times the industry plays that BPB (Brown Paper Bag) testing crap, Beyonce's beautiful booty said she's black and that is good enough for me.

Timmy84 said:

SynthiaRose said:

1. I loved all Whitney's music from the first album forward, although some of the latter releases didn't resonate with me. I never understood the accusation that she didn't sound "black" enough. I frankly don't understand how anyone who grew up with Prince music could say that...could force "black music" into rigid constraints.

But yes, I did hear those complaints from some blacks in the 80s, along with complaints that her "blackness" was suspect because she couldn't dance and had a flat butt. SMH.

2. I can't take Bobbi Kristina seriously. I abhor that girl. She's already said she hasn't read the book, so why is she commenting on it? Read it, then judge it little girl. Cissy is the one who gave birth to Whitney. If she has something to say, let her say it.

[Edited 2/4/13 9:10am]

But yet they complain when that version of a black person who CAN dance and have a BIG butt becomes a "stereotype". I tell you... we're really confused about what we deemed "blackness". I'll never get it. They treated Whitney like a bastard child.

Oh Lord, some people have become so damned politically correct these days that they can't let their hair down and have some fun. There are some horrible stereotypes out there but there also some good ones such as black folks can dance, black folks have rhythm, black men have the biggest dicks, a black woman ain't no fool and ain't gonna take no mess, gay people are more fashionable, gay people are talented and artistic, latin men are hot blooded great lovers, etc. Even though everyone knows that those stereotypes don't apply to each and every single person in those groups, people used to laugh, have fun, and even celebrate the good stereotypes. Even white people used to laugh when someone like Oprah used to say "I may be black but when it comes to dancing, I'm all white". There was no problem with letting someone else have the glory when it came to that. Even with myself when I slept with one particular white guy who I had partied with all night and the next morning, he put my arm up next to his and said "It's unbelievable, your skin is as light as mine" and I told him it ought to be because I'm the same thing he is and he couldn't believe I wasn't at least mixed with black. I told him, "Hell, you should have known that last night when you saw my dick" and he laughed his ass off. Folks these days are just too damn stuffy and stuck up for their own good.

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[Edited 2/4/13 12:14pm]

phunkdaddy said:

vainandy said:

That shit sounded like Pat Boone trying to do Little Richard.

I was surprised at how mediocre that album was too considering LA and Face produced it. The title track was as good as it got. I bought it for my sister last summer when best buy was letting a lot of cd's go for 5 bucks. She is a Whitney fan but even she doesn't find that cd impressive. The New Jack LA/Face sound just didn't work as well for her as it did Bobby.

What she should have done during that era was go the house/dance route similar to Black Box at the time. She had the voice for that type of music. Of course, if she had, she would have watered that music down too like she did later when she attempted a little house music. She just insists on straddling the damn fence which is what has made her music sound so horrible from day one.

vainandy said:

Timmy84 said:

But yet they complain when that version of a black person who CAN dance and have a BIG butt becomes a "stereotype". I tell you... we're really confused about what we deemed "blackness". I'll never get it. They treated Whitney like a bastard child.

Oh Lord, some people have become so damned politically correct these days that they can't let their hair down and have some fun. There are some horrible stereotypes out there but there also some good ones such as black folks can dance, black folks have rhythm, black men have the biggest dicks, a black woman ain't no fool and ain't gonna take no mess, gay people are more fashionable, gay people are talented and artistic, latin men are hot blooded great lovers, etc. Even though everyone knows that those stereotypes don't apply to each and single person, people used to laugh, have fun, and even celebrate the good stereotypes. Even white people used to laugh when someone like Oprah used to say "I may be black but when it comes to dancing, I'm all white". There was no problem with letting someone else have the glory when it came to that. Even with myself when I slept with one particular white guy who I had partied with all night and the next morning, he put my arm up next to his and said "It's unbelievable, your skin is as light as mine" and I told him it ought to be because I'm the same thing he is and he couldn't believe I wasn't at least mixed with black. I told him, "Hell, you should have known that last night when you saw my dick" and he laughed his ass off. Folks these days are just too damn stuffy and stuck up for their own good.

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.

[Edited 2/4/13 12:06pm]

I knew dang-a-langs would find their way into our thread some way, some how

But for real though, the people who were dogging Bouncy on Yahoo! were not mentioning her ass and thighs in a way that was celebratory. You would think it was a crime for a woman to have hips. Actually, the way they were carrying on you woulda thought she was somebody that just sat at home and ate all day, and kicked puppies in the throat before she roasted 'em on a BBQ pit for lunch

About shapes though, I do remember a time though when being curvy was not as common as it is now and it was something that women had to work to get. The "Thelma from Good Times" body seemed to be the ideal that women aspired to, not necessarily meaning that very black girl had it.

When i look at a lot of starlets from the "olden days" quite a few of them were on the thinner side...sure we had the 50's & 60's girls who were meatier in the white community (Marilyn Monroe Sophia Loren, ect.) then in the 70's it seemd like the black ladies were bursting out all over (Pam Grier, Bernatte Stannis). So even by the time whitney with her skinny self came out, she just looked like a regular old girl to me from her body type, not really unusual for being skinny. i just wonder at what point did we go so crazy that now EVERYbody has to be shaped with an unnaturally gi-ormous ass? I understand people love the power of the booty and the glory of curves but, damn :

It's weird though because if you don't have a big ole butt, people talk about you. It you do have a big ole butt, they still make a big deal. Hell, at this point I just think I'mma just go with everybody's crazy, and nobody knows what the hell they want anymore.

People are just confused.

vainandy said:

phunkdaddy said:

vainandy said: I was surprised at how mediocre that album was too considering LA and Face produced it. The title track was as good as it got. I bought it for my sister last summer when best buy was letting a lot of cd's go for 5 bucks. She is a Whitney fan but even she doesn't find that cd impressive. The New Jack LA/Face sound just didn't work as well for her as it did Bobby.

What she should have done during that era was go the house/dance route similar to Black Box at the time. She had the voice for that type of music. Of course, if she had, she would have watered that music down too like she did later when she attempted a little house music. She just insists on straddling the damn fence which is what has made her music sound so horrible from day one.

Okay, even I will admit I barely remember the tracks from "I'm Your Baby Tonight". I pretty much only remember the title song and that's it. For me I couldn't get back into Whitney musically until she started doing her soundtracks; the Bodyguard, the Preacher's Wife, Waiting to Exhale, ect...for me she was at her best when she would put on her "Gospel" hat; you can't hold nothing back (least of all singing) when you get The Spirit. Especially if they put your butt in front of the Georgia Mass Choir. For any singer that's the moment you betta come with it and sing your face off !

Ottensen said:

vainandy said:

What she should have done during that era was go the house/dance route similar to Black Box at the time. She had the voice for that type of music. Of course, if she had, she would have watered that music down too like she did later when she attempted a little house music. She just insists on straddling the damn fence which is what has made her music sound so horrible from day one.

Okay, even I will admit I barely remember the tracks from "I'm Your Baby Tonight". I pretty much only remember the title song and that's it. For me I couldn't get back into Whitney musically until she started doing her soundtracks; the Bodyguard, the Preacher's Wife, Waiting to Exhale, ect...for me she was at her best when she would put on her "Gospel" hat; you can't hold nothing back (least of all singing) when you get The Spirit. Especially if they put your butt in front of the Georgia Mass Choir. For any singer that's the moment you betta come with it and sing your face off !

Speaking of, I love her version of Joy to the World. She and the Georgia Mass Choir rocked it. Matter of fact, I actually played it following news of her death and it reminded me how GREAT she always was a vocalist.

Timmy84 said:

SynthiaRose said:

I don't agree with the widespread view that Whitney was "fake" at the beginning of her career and tried to fabricate a persona to ingratiate herself to white people. Clearly, Cisssy was religious, overprotective and raised Whitney in a very sheltered environment. Many people like that act like rainbows and roses. The gutter trash persona she took on after yoking with Bobby-- as displayed on the pathetic and hilarious "Being Bobby Brown" -- was so beneath her. I'll take her sheltered personality over that any day. When I watch old interviews where she spoke with dignity, reflection and class ...and then watch the "crack is wack" interview. The contrast makes me sad.

[Edited 2/4/13 9:18am]

I agree. That shit was not even her. Looking back, it just didn't really scream out "oh that's Whitney". I probably had said something that it was close to it. But now, I don't believe that. That shit truly was a tragedy and it started two emotionally deprived addicts that needed to get away from each other at the stage of their marriage.

i totally agree. i remember seeing her on 'friday night videos' with paul schaffer (sp?) of david letterman's house band. it must have been around '85 or '86. she was playful and funny, articulate, she sang a few soulful bars of the stylistics 'you are everything'. she never came across as fake. she sounded like a well brought up young woman from jersey. i don't understand what so many people found wrong with that.

kibbles said:

Timmy84 said:

I agree. That shit was not even her. Looking back, it just didn't really scream out "oh that's Whitney". I probably had said something that it was close to it. But now, I don't believe that. That shit truly was a tragedy and it started two emotionally deprived addicts that needed to get away from each other at the stage of their marriage.

i totally agree. i remember seeing her on 'friday night videos' with paul schaffer (sp?) of david letterman's house band. it must have been around '85 or '86. she was playful and funny, articulate, she sang a few soulful bars of the stylistics 'you are everything'. she never came across as fake. she sounded like a well brought up young woman from jersey. i don't understand what so many people found wrong with that.

Me either. I think Dionne Warwick and Diana Ross (and the Supremes) got the same flack. Once, I think, Mary Wilson said when she and the other Supremes met the Beatles, the Beatles were taken aback with how quiet they were, thinking they were "square". It was different when they met Mary Wells and Martha and the Vandellas. I guess they were more "earthy". But the Supremes (and later Diana after she turned solo) got the same "you ain't that black" flack in the '60s and '70s that Whitney got in the '80s.

[Edited 2/4/13 13:36pm]

Ottensen said:

I remember that too . It was her, and that first black actress to play on Days of Our lives...virtually the only two black faces to appear in mainstream fashion magazines for young American girls back then. I remember being so excited and showing my mother "Mommy look, it's some black people in my magazine!!!" Then when Whitney's album came out, my first reaction "That's that black model!"....had no idea what the girl's name even was

I remember when her first album came out though, she was getting much love in the black community. In had an uncle in Cleveland who one summer took us to a local music festival (kind of like a Tom Joyner style family reunion); it was for all intents and purposes a black music festival featuring r&b, in a black community and people were going crazy over the girl who sang "You Give Good Love". I mean, if you look at the r&b of the 80's, what the hell was she doing that was so different from Atlantic Starr or Regina Belle or Vesta or Donna Summer? They all sounded like that and it seemed to me that everybody liked them.

I think I remember r&b taking a turn in the 90's where suddenly it became a little rougher around the edges and you couldn't escape it's urban/hip-hop influence. All of a sudden, all the singers started looking manly and wore unisex clothes and had a tough as nails exterior with songs that all sounded alike- it seemed to be that way for girl groups as well as solo artists. The only people looking any different or playing up glamour seemed to be En Vogue. That wasn't my favorite period for r&b music, and if that's what you had to be in order to survive as a singer for that moment in the industry, I can well understand a person pursuing a different trajectory where you record songs that are timeless, and will give you a world wide audience for when you're old and can barely make it to the microphone. Whitney's cousin Dionne was the model template for that formula: and even today she and Burt Bacharach can still travel the world, be put up at the Four Seasons, and play venues like the Royal Albert Concert Hall. Where are all those throwaway singers from the 90's who got famous on trend at today?

I remember when the Whitney backlash started, and her basically responding that she was in this for the long haul as a life long career, to do work that would last. I didn't blame her then, and shole don't blame her now. Everybody couldn't be laid up under Puffy playing the gangsta chick role -and thank gawd Faith and Mary got away from him so that they could grow and have long standing careers. Best thing they ever did for themselves if you ask me. It's interesting to see that many young singers after a certain period of time, will stretch and try to grow into more "adult" music. Whitney said "Eff it. I'm just going to do that from jump street, dull or not". I say good on her.

me, too! 'that's the girl from seventeen!'

there's a thread on the non prince forum about beyonce's superbowl performance. many posters were pointing out that an unintentional consequence of her show was how it highlighted how poor her catalog really is, and how surprising that is given her fame.

it was a little over 20 years ago that whitney's version of 'i will always love you' came out. i remember it well. i had already heard it on the radio before coming to work, and when i got there, the temp (an older black lady) was telling me that people were buzzing about the new whitney song. she hadn't heard it. i told her i had, that it was an old dolly parton song that i liked, and that whitney's version was just ... wow. as we were talking, i had the radio on and the dj came back from commercial saying that she was going to play the song because she had had so many requests for it that morning.

whether you love or hate the song, i don't think there's anything in bey's catalog approaches that type of classic.

kibbles said:

Ottensen said:

I remember that too . It was her, and that first black actress to play on Days of Our lives...virtually the only two black faces to appear in mainstream fashion magazines for young American girls back then. I remember being so excited and showing my mother "Mommy look, it's some black people in my magazine!!!" Then when Whitney's album came out, my first reaction "That's that black model!"....had no idea what the girl's name even was

I remember when her first album came out though, she was getting much love in the black community. In had an uncle in Cleveland who one summer took us to a local music festival (kind of like a Tom Joyner style family reunion); it was for all intents and purposes a black music festival featuring r&b, in a black community and people were going crazy over the girl who sang "You Give Good Love". I mean, if you look at the r&b of the 80's, what the hell was she doing that was so different from Atlantic Starr or Regina Belle or Vesta or Donna Summer? They all sounded like that and it seemed to me that everybody liked them.

I think I remember r&b taking a turn in the 90's where suddenly it became a little rougher around the edges and you couldn't escape it's urban/hip-hop influence. All of a sudden, all the singers started looking manly and wore unisex clothes and had a tough as nails exterior with songs that all sounded alike- it seemed to be that way for girl groups as well as solo artists. The only people looking any different or playing up glamour seemed to be En Vogue. That wasn't my favorite period for r&b music, and if that's what you had to be in order to survive as a singer for that moment in the industry, I can well understand a person pursuing a different trajectory where you record songs that are timeless, and will give you a world wide audience for when you're old and can barely make it to the microphone. Whitney's cousin Dionne was the model template for that formula: and even today she and Burt Bacharach can still travel the world, be put up at the Four Seasons, and play venues like the Royal Albert Concert Hall. Where are all those throwaway singers from the 90's who got famous on trend at today?

I remember when the Whitney backlash started, and her basically responding that she was in this for the long haul as a life long career, to do work that would last. I didn't blame her then, and shole don't blame her now. Everybody couldn't be laid up under Puffy playing the gangsta chick role -and thank gawd Faith and Mary got away from him so that they could grow and have long standing careers. Best thing they ever did for themselves if you ask me. It's interesting to see that many young singers after a certain period of time, will stretch and try to grow into more "adult" music. Whitney said "Eff it. I'm just going to do that from jump street, dull or not". I say good on her.

me, too! 'that's the girl from seventeen!'

there's a thread on the non prince forum about beyonce's superbowl performance. many posters were pointing out that an unintentional consequence of her show was how it highlighted how poor her catalog really is, and how surprising that is given her fame.

it was a little over 20 years ago that whitney's version of 'i will always love you' came out. i remember it well. i had already heard it on the radio before coming to work, and when i got there, the temp (an older black lady) was telling me that people were buzzing about the new whitney song. she hadn't heard it. i told her i had, that it was an old dolly parton song that i liked, and that whitney's version was just ... wow. as we were talking, i had the radio on and the dj came back from commercial saying that she was going to play the song because she had had so many requests for it that morning.

whether you love or hate the song, i don't think there's anything in bey's catalog approaches that type of classic.

I have to agree. There was something special about Whitney's version that caught on with everyone. I actually remembered the first time I heard it, well actually I saw it. When her video for the song first aired on MTV, I just remember first how beautiful she looked and how she sung without no music. Before, I had never heard a singer, much less Whitney (who I used to sing to all of her older songs), sung without the accompaniment of music so it surprised me and then the music started and I just felt really like " " And I kept saying "she's so beautiful". Then she hit those notes at the climax and I was like "wow..." I had a big smile on my face when it all ended. Memories. RIP Whitney...

Timmy84 said:

kibbles said:

yes, i agree. whitney was only a few years older than me and i remember her from my seventeen magazine. i was very happy to see someone like me in those photos. when her album came out, i can't say that i ever viewed her as being 'not black enough'. so she was doing "pop" music, so what? she was young and vibrant and 80s; she didn't have to be a soul diva a la aretha. whitney was of her time, and aretha of hers. i had no idea how poor her rep was in some segments of the black community until the soul train awards (which i wasn't watching but heard about. i notice that she was back a few years later, with bobby, and she had a much warmer reception).

i do remember wondering what she saw in bobby, though. marrying a younger, poorer, less successful man does not bode well. i didn't know then that they were into "the life", and who was more responsible for it is a moot point when they were both so determined to be involved in that. sad.

Whitney thought she and Bobby were compatible in a sense. She knew what Bobby was all about but I think she got caught up in Bobby's allure. He did have a charm about him that she found intriguing and, in her own words, Bobby was his own man and could take care of business. She wanted someone like that rather than someone who lived off her. In a way though, you could say Bobby DID live off her. In a way.

i see what you're saying. i guess i've just never been one of those women who view men, or people in general, from the 'outside'. i'm looking at what you do, not what you say you do. bobby may have had swagger, or certain bad boy braggadocio, and i know a lot of women get caught up in that. like destiny's child's song, 'soldier'. i get it.

however, he wasn't taking care of business if he had a couple of kids from different women that he was barely paying for. whitney knew that going in. i'm sure that within a few years of their marriage, they were living off of whitney's money, not his.

Timmy84 said:

I have to agree. There was something special about Whitney's version that caught on with everyone. I actually remembered the first time I heard it, well actually I saw it. When her video for the song first aired on MTV, I just remember first how beautiful she looked and how she sung without no music. Before, I had never heard a singer, much less Whitney (who I used to sing to all of her older songs), sung without the accompaniment of music so it surprised me and then the music started and I just felt really like " " And I kept saying "she's so beautiful". Then she hit those notes at the climax and I was like "wow..." I had a big smile on my face when it all ended. Memories. RIP Whitney...

i feel that way when i see the "exhale (shoop)" video.

kibbles said:

Timmy84 said:

I have to agree. There was something special about Whitney's version that caught on with everyone. I actually remembered the first time I heard it, well actually I saw it. When her video for the song first aired on MTV, I just remember first how beautiful she looked and how she sung without no music. Before, I had never heard a singer, much less Whitney (who I used to sing to all of her older songs), sung without the accompaniment of music so it surprised me and then the music started and I just felt really like " " And I kept saying "she's so beautiful". Then she hit those notes at the climax and I was like "wow..." I had a big smile on my face when it all ended. Memories. RIP Whitney...

i feel that way when i see the "exhale (shoop)" video.

That was another great video.