imago said:

...I vacillate...

I dunno why, but this phrase sounds really filthy coming from you.

Lammastide said:

imago said:

...I vacillate...

I dunno why, but this phrase sounds really filthy coming from you.

OMG...

Nobody respond to Lammastide's posts. I'll explain why later.

I’m at work right now and can’t see the video, but I assume it’s a factory farm doc or something like that. There was a video released recently of footage shot in a local (for me) hog production facility that gave a run down of some of the uglier practices – gestation crates, ‘thumping,’ castration without anesthesia, etc. I’ll try to link to it here (not sure it will work since I can’t view videos here).

I became a vegetarian (with a loophole) last year after reading Peter Singer’s The Ethics of What We Eat, and I really think that’s an excellent book for anyone who’s interested in the topic. I found the transition completely painless and quite easy, & I was a big meat eater (my favourite meal was prime rib and crab’s legs).

I don’t expect anyone to consider the interests of a pig, chicken or cow to be equal to a person, and I don’t do that myself. I do think that when we make daily diet decisions the interests of the animal should should at least be a factor & I think we should be guided by the Bentham principle: can they suffer? There's no doubt that animals can suffer, and the standard practices involved in meat production (the massive chicken barns, the gestation crates, the thumping) almost certainly do make them suffer.

I think the rational think to do is at least consider that suffering when you make your meal choice – perhaps if you can’t give up meat, try to source some from a place that has higher standards or hunt your own. I’ve personally sworn off factory farmed meat, but I will eat hunted meat and in fact just received some deer steak from one of the techs at my job. I’m going to try making a chili this weekend, I think.

[Edited 1/25/13 15:03pm]

I'm now a vegetarian just because you are, damosuzuki

well, no not really, I saw this doco, which I now can't remember the name of

NDRU said:

PurpleJedi said:

That's what I was getting at. We developed the ability to hunt & defend ourselves with our hands (weapons).

BUT, we clearly are omnivores, therefore not too much meat. In fact, daily consumption of meat is probably not natural AT ALL and people who eat beef EVERY DAY of their lives tend to develop health issues.

interesting, I suppose that our teeth could have evolved with the use of tools.

I don't know a great deal about about tooth evolution specifically, but I am familiar with a lecture by Sean Carroll where he touched on human skull and brain evolution in a brief section and the role the eating of cooked meat may have played, and I would expect cooking of food to have a great impact on the form our teeth took as well.

He mentioned that the reduction of temporalis jaw muscles in humans played a significant role in allowing cranium expansion, and that cooked meat eating in turn was very likely a significant factor. Since we didn’t require the massive muscles attached to our sagittal crest for grinding grains, pressure was taken off our skull, freeing up the skull to expand in other ways. I'd expect having softer, cooked food would have negated the need for massive, grinding teeth as well.

I'll post the video in case anyone's interested.According to my notes the section on skull evolution starts at 36 minutes & the section on sagittal crest is around the 44 minute mark.

ZombieKitten said:

I'm now a vegetarian just because you are, damosuzuki

well, no not really, I saw this doco, which I now can't remember the name of

food inc, maybe?

damosuzuki said:

ZombieKitten said:

I'm now a vegetarian just because you are, damosuzuki

well, no not really, I saw this doco, which I now can't remember the name of

food inc, maybe?

YES!!!! That's the one!!!!

So, like 20 days of felafels and tofu later - please tell me it's worth it!!!!

ZombieKitten said:

damosuzuki said:

food inc, maybe?

YES!!!! That's the one!!!!

So, like 20 days of felafels and tofu later - please tell me it's worth it!!!!

Personally I found it dead easy. I do occasionally rely on some of the 'fake food' products like tempeh and tofurkey (and I think most of them are really quite good) - but mainly I've used this as an opportunity to try new & different things, & it's really been quite enjoyable and really not a challenge or an obstacle.

I'd expect it might be a little trickier for you since I gather you've got kids and all that.

damosuzuki said:

ZombieKitten said:

YES!!!! That's the one!!!!

So, like 20 days of felafels and tofu later - please tell me it's worth it!!!!

Personally I found it dead easy. I do occasionally rely on some of the 'fake food' products like tempeh and tofurkey (and I think most of them are really quite good) - but mainly I've used this as an opportunity to try new & different things, & it's really been quite enjoyable and really not a challenge or an obstacle.

I'd expect it might be a little trickier for you since I gather you've got kids and all that.

nah, it's easy for me. I have only been eating meat last couple of years because doctors told me I had to, but then I got an iron infusion and I've been told I'm free to be veg now without worries

Left to my own devices, I don't buy meat. My kids are happy with tofu, egg and fish now and then.

2/3 of them seem vegetarian anyway

I'm very much open to adventure on the food front - I LOVE to cook, and all new things welcome

damosuzuki said:

NDRU said:

interesting, I suppose that our teeth could have evolved with the use of tools.

I don't know a great deal about about tooth evolution specifically, but I am familiar with a lecture by Sean Carroll where he touched on human skull and brain evolution in a brief section and the role the eating of cooked meat may have played, and I would expect cooking of food to have a great impact on the form our teeth took as well.

He mentioned that the reduction of temporalis jaw muscles in humans played a significant role in allowing cranium expansion, and that cooked meat eating in turn was very likely a significant factor. Since we didn’t require the massive muscles attached to our sagittal crest for grinding grains, pressure was taken off our skull, freeing up the skull to expand in other ways. I'd expect having softer, cooked food would have negated the need for massive, grinding teeth as well.

I'll post the video in case anyone's interested.According to my notes the section on skull evolution starts at 36 minutes & the section on sagittal crest is around the 44 minute mark.

Interesting...

damosuzuki said:

I couldn't make it past 1:13

damosuzuki said:

NDRU said:

interesting, I suppose that our teeth could have evolved with the use of tools.

I don't know a great deal about about tooth evolution specifically, but I am familiar with a lecture by Sean Carroll where he touched on human skull and brain evolution in a brief section and the role the eating of cooked meat may have played, and I would expect cooking of food to have a great impact on the form our teeth took as well.

He mentioned that the reduction of temporalis jaw muscles in humans played a significant role in allowing cranium expansion, and that cooked meat eating in turn was very likely a significant factor. Since we didn’t require the massive muscles attached to our sagittal crest for grinding grains, pressure was taken off our skull, freeing up the skull to expand in other ways. I'd expect having softer, cooked food would have negated the need for massive, grinding teeth as well.

I'll post the video in case anyone's interested.According to my notes the section on skull evolution starts at 36 minutes & the section on sagittal crest is around the 44 minute mark.

yeah, through the course of this discussion I rememebed that from anthropology 20 years ago!

I had a hazy memory of the jaw being one of the first key changes in primates that led to humans, along with the pelvis

ZombieKitten said:

I'm now a vegetarian just because you are, damosuzuki

I see what you did there!

NDRU said:

NDRU said:

RodeoSchro said:

Man has always been a meat eater and I highly doubt there's ever been any attractive way we've killed and prepared our meat.

That said, I don't want to see how sausage is made.

I doubt man has always eaten meat. We don't have the teeth or claws for it.

We most certainly do. Our incisors and canine teeth are "meat teeth." Our vegetation teeth are in the back - molars are for grinding.

The length of the human intestinal tract points to an omnivorous diet, as well.

[Edited 1/25/13 14:15pm]