:
If so, why is it so easy to accept the murder of an animal for consumption?

Animals do not have the same conceptual experience of pain as humans. The equipment just isn't there--they're mostly nervous system, brain-stem, and perception, while we have all that plus: "oh the humanity! why am I being murdered?! this sucks!!!" etc.

teller said:

Is there an online website that explains this, teller? I'd really be interested in reading it.

My observation is that they show great fear when danger approaches...or is this just instinct, not thought?

I disagree with Teller, that is only an excuse for feeling less guilty about the slaughter of animals...


Believe me, I am non-biased, my father slaughtered animals in his earlier days and I dont feel sorry for them.. (kinda, - I eating meat and that is why animals are here: for our consumption!) Oh hell, I am gonna start a debate/argument now, but yeah, how do we know what they feel? They live, breathe and eat like we do, so they must feel the same pain as we do...



and and

LaVisHh said:

You will not know, unless you are an animal yourself, these are only peoples assumptions...LaVisHh, why did you start this thread? Are you vegetarian?

How do we know the pain animals feel when they are killed? We are not them...


Also, how do wec actually know the pain when humans are killed? Again, we do not know...

i would feel more guilty about killing humans if they weren't so damn delicious... i mean...err...
::runs away fast::

I can't get inside an animal's head, but they obviously cannot experience the world in as much resolution as humans--it's just a fact that they lack the frontal lobes of the brain that would attach any meaning to death. I don't know any good brain sites off-hand, but it's nothing mysterious...

I don't feel guilty at all. They of course react in many of the same ways that we as humans do, after all, they're programmed by nature to try and avoid death, and it's natural to sympathize with them.

But they're food.

Of course they feel the same kind of pain as we humans do.

it depends how its killed to the amount of pain felt...

I am a veggie, but i dont believe eating meat is wrong and no1 should do so... it is a matter of choice and personal decision

I choose not to because the prospect sickens me. Yet, as a vegetarian i may be looked down upon by Vegans... it cannot be a rule for one and one 4 another

The survival of creatures is based on consumption, reproduction and respiration (among other things)... its diet symbolises the creature... it would be cruel to feed a lion tofu... morally wrong because that is what its designed to eat

The pain will be equal whether killed by man or beast...

It's easy to accept the murder of an animal when it comes to consumption because by nature, humans are omnivores - they eat animal and vegetable. If we still lived in the wild, I don't suppose that there would be any big-cats who would feel guilty about killing us in order to eat and when you take a look at the way spiders kill their prey, you realise just how kind humans are when it comes to killing and eating animals. And if you lived in the stone-age, you wouldn't care about the suffering of the animal that you were killing in order to eat.

I'm not keen on making animals suffer any more than they have to when being prepared for human consumption, but I do accept that, by nature, we eat animal meat and in order to do that we have to 'murder' animals.

Of course, we could all survive without meat, but I don't particularly want to. Likewise, I could survive without family, friends and lovers. But I don't particularly want to.

Animals feel the same pain we do, whether they process it the same way mentally is something different. And it isn't all instinct. Animals can learn from experience what's harmful to them. Like when my dog was a puppy, she went up and sniffed a candle. It hurt her nose, so she doesn't do it anymore. That isn't just simple 'instinct'. That's not wanting to get fucking burned.

teller said:

But Teller, that is exactly where it gets fucked up...people seem to care more about animals - which were put on this earth for our consumption - than human life...


People tend to sympathise more for animal cruelty than human cruelty these days... What is our world coming to?
[This message was edited Fri Mar 7 12:17:12 PST 2003 by REDFEATHERS]

Well, I'm only an animal in bed, but I never feel pain.

REDFEATHERS said:

I started the thread because it was a passing thought, and I wanted to see other views on the matter.

I am a vegetarian, yes.

Ok, I will tell you a story...


My fathers Dad died when he was 13 and being the only child he left school and sought work to support his Mum, my Nana (God bless her Soul, I still Love her to Death!), that was how it was done in those days...So he worked, hard and hard, chopping up animals and visting the slaughter house and experieneced horrible things (IMO)...fortunately, we have always eaten well, fresh meat, the best cuts etc etc...

My Dad went into Insurance and Finances after that and stood a good very paid job, but retired recently at an early age..about 52, rather than the standard 65 in the UK...he got bored and started helping for friends at the local farm, to fill in his spare time, butchering, he hadnt done it for 31 years and wanted to prove himself...


Actually he is better than the butchers there; people come asking for extravagant meat preparations that my father can do..the younger butcher cannot...

Then on the farm, one of the cows looked uncomfortable..ill even...and my Dad noticed it was calving...the farmer, Peter, tried to deliver it, but alas, no good, so Peter went back to the house for some forceps, and my father, stayed with the cow, worried that it would fall over and kill itself and/or the calf inside. My father persisted and pulled with all his might, the calves legs, and delivered the little baby before Peter, the farmer returned...he cleared its nosrtils and the calf bleated, both mother and baby are fine and well...


My daddy is so proud and I am too of him...he decided to call the calf Norma...after Norman from City Slickers but as it was a girl changed it slightly...he knows that in a few years he will be cutting up Norma and selling her joints and steak fillets to customers...but such is life...

LaVisHh said:

Ok, whether for ethical reasons or not, please do not judge, people are brought up differently and this thread could start a real debate!

LaVisHh said:

murder..unlawful killing of human being with malice aforethought.


slaughter.. killing of animals for food; killing of persons or animals at once or continuously.


The pocket oxford dictionary

Plain and simple, any animal with a working complex nervous system feels pain to no markedly less a degree than do humans. And though they haven't developed some body of philosophical literature on death and dying, I know of no animal species that doesn't have some fear response or instinct to survive. Whether we kill a cow to make a burger, or our cousin Chuck because he dented our car, from a biological standpoint, the victim goes through the same trauma, and we shouldn't try to equivocate that.

I am, by the way, a militant omnivore and feel little shame because I fall along the food chain just like this cute, little quail I'm gonna eat tonight. It's just the way nature is.

I do think, though, that because humans have been granted the gift of reason, analysis and emotion, we should respect the life we take to survive. We should be as humane as possible in our killing. For this reason, I really think Kosher and Halaal laws have great worth even aside from any theological attachments.
[This message was edited Fri Mar 7 13:37:00 PST 2003 by Lammastide]

REDFEATHERS said:

I've not judged, I merely asked a question.

Lammastide said:

Co-sign...

Lammastide said:

I personally think that is bullshit...animals are shot dead in the head or given an electric shock for the purposes of consumption and their suffering lasts seconds...but through Halaal and Kosher methods, their throats are slit and they are left to bleed to death for minutes suffering that trauma for your religious reasons...In answer to LaVisHhs question, yes they suffer more through Halaal and Kosher practices and the way we do it is more kind...Again, animals do not know or feel the traumatic suffering we feel beforehand, as they cannot comprehend that a gun to the head is gonna be death, so they take what is given, but Kosher wise, half a ton of meat/animal hung up in chains, bleeding to death, while still maybe alive is something I cannot understand and feel is more cruel...

REDFEATHERS said:

That is exactly why you're not supposed to name the farm animals!

LaVisHh said:

Are you going to marry a carrot, LaV?

chickengrease said:

No, a cucumber.

tommyalma said:

Why not? My Dad would like to know who he was cutting up! Wouldnt you?

LaVisHh said:

An extra large one???

REDFEATHERS said:

No, I like the average sized cucumber, don't you?

LaVisHh said:

At room temperature, not straight out the fridge!!!