Can they go hand in hand?

I say yes.

In a detailed study about artists' struggles, I read about an interesting experiment that a college professor held with her sculpting class. She divided her class in half and gave different assignments to each. The first half of the class was instructed to make as many sculptures as possible during the term and not to judge them. Just keep churning out as many as they could and then to submit their last one for the final grade. The second half of the class was instructed to only work on one sculpture the whole time, perfecting it until the end of the semester. The first group complained that the second group got so long to work on one project. Yet, something unexpected happened along the way. The first group became so good at what they were doing that they consistently turned out great work and became masters at what they were doing by the end. And the second group fussed and fidgeted so much about that one piece that they never got to learn from their mistakes. Their sculptures were so fussy and unnatural by the end. The first group blew them away. Cool, huh?

So take this as a long metaphorical look at art in general. For example, think about Prince vs. Michael Jackson. People complain about Prince flooding the market, and there were a few stinkers here and there, but he keeps coming up with brilliant stuff, even in the off years. I'm glad that he keeps pushing himself to work and come up with new things. Otherwise, we wouldn't get a Gold Experience, The Truth, and The Rainbow Children. Then there's Michael, who reappears every half decade, with a product that is more and more pitiful than the one that came before it.

My point, quantity often leads to quality.

Tron, I agree with you, but I'm afraid someone is gonna post "wrong forum"! Be prepared!!



Tina (~!~)

NettieSmiles said:

What forum should it go in? It's a general topic.

Thankyou. Cool post.

TRON said:

Well, you compared Prince with Michael Jackson. This thread may fit in "Prince: Music and More" or "Music and More" non Prince.

I'm just sayin

Tina (~!~)

Lleena said:

You're welcome. When I first read this it really inspired me to get off my ass and become more productive with my songwriting instead of worrying about making everything 'perfect'.

Practice makes perfect.

LaVisHh said:

Exactly. More or less.

Sorry for being so darn picky,Tron.

Tina (~!~)

NettieSmiles said:

It's okay. The reason I posted wasn't really about Prince. I just used him as an example to drive my point home. For further reference, see this thread: http://www.prince.org/msg...&tid=38791
[This message was edited Wed Mar 5 12:12:34 PST 2003 by TRON]

TRON said:

Aiming for perfection is a natural tendency Tron. We all do it, we set ourselves very high standards and are disappointed when we fall short of them. Good luck with the Songwriting . I think you have the perfect attitude to succeed!

Lleena said:

Thanks. You're sweet.

Chances are, the more you push yourself, and the more you experiment, the more likely you are to stumble across a good idea. I just need to keep telling myself that, cuz I start and stop a lot with my music. I have trouble following through and get easily distracted.

This is an EXCELLENT post. I love it! I'm always pushing this kinda of sentiment, but I hadn't heard such a clear anecdote before!

My own site was born out of quantity--if you look all the way back at Skeleton card #1, you'll be stunned at how cheap and unpolished it is. But I just kept cranking them out, even some bad ones when I wasn't in the mood. And now I'm finally producing some real quality.

Creativity requires several things, but one of them is what you just pointed out--what I call "the walk." You have to "walk" through lots of different combinations and possibilities before you discover a breakthrough idea, and you learn along the way. Quantity, failure, random output--these all contribute to better work! Creativity isn't about pulling shit out of your head--it's about recombining things you see in the world in a new way. What things? Take the WALK in order to find them.

P.S.: Learn from the master: Douglas R. Hofstadter.

So your point is that as long as someone keeps trying, all the crap they produce along the way can be excused as long as some of it is great?

I'm not so sure. Prince could have not released a lot of the "error" songs in his trial and error process, slimmed down his product offering, and had a more consistent catalog. As it stands, I can't think of one flawless Prince album (yes, I really could think of those one or five songs on each album I don't like; orgnote me if it's that important to you).

Also, I hear Michael Jackson writes a ton of songs for each project, but just doesn't release most of them in order to produce higher-quality albums. I, for one, would rather have a Dangerous every couple of years than three albums that are each only half-good. Then again, we're on a Prince forum. No matter how much you like it, how many of you would dig a My Computer from another artist? Sure, if you're a Prince fan, you want as much as you can get. I think that might be your real point.

There's something to be said for honing your craft, and if you're rushing through everything, you may never learn how to finish a project, or think about it for a while and go back to add that one thing that takes it over the top.

You must be a fan of punk and jazz (I am), and/or Jackson Pollack. While I do understand that emotion has a lot to do with art, it's also nice to see someone take their time with it.

Sorry if it sounds like I don't have a specific point, but the original post sounds more like apologetics for the lower-quality works in an oeuvre than advocacy of prolific artists - which makes it hard to debate or support. I'll agree that it may be worth hearing "Jughead" if it means you also get "Cream," but if you've got hundreds of songs nobody wants to hear - to quote Michael Jackson, "keep it in the closet."

In closing, I think whatever works for each artist is the way to go. Although that art teacher should have let those students stop working on their projects once they were done. Over-production can kill.

tommyalma said:

Not excused--NECESSARY; part of the learning process. Never, ever, be afraid to fail.

Of course, maybe all of it shouldn't be released...

TRON said:

Then how do you explain IceNine's posts?

No, it's not about rushing through things or delivering crap. It's about constantly moving and not letting your art stagnate. I'm all for taking your time with stuff too, just so long as you don't treat the work too preciously. Fear of failure or creating a dud is a huge obstacle I've found and it's better to just keep pushing ahead. Don't let the well run dry, so to speak.

June7 said:

I don't. He's just a natural talent.

I completely agree. The more an artist works in their genre (and related fields) the more "new" ideas they will be confronted with. Tron has written before about the accidental creation of an amazing and unique sound by a band when they had to overcome the deficit of inferior equipment. The creative process can turn these types of situations into the most amazing "art". If the creator was stuck on one piece what would be the chance of having to stretch the imagination ~ and in the process giving birth to an extraordinary work? Pretty slim because they would be obsessed with the nuances of the one piece rather than the creative process. By the way Teller, I spent some time on your site and just LOVED it ~ and I liked the simplicity and charm of the early skeletons as much as the brilliance of the new ones!

bratchildsfriend said:

Good point. Joy Division might've gotten hung up on sounding "professional" and "high tech" if they'd let their equipment limitations get in the way. Luckily, they had a brilliant producer to help them out with that.

I thought u were talking bout quality streets

TRON said:

I go through periods of a creative lull. Similar to writer's block. I really have to push myself sometimes to work. I hate it when this happens.

Lleena said:


Me too. It's like a painful, ingrown toenail that needs to come out. Or like artistic blue balls. I hate it.

From a university commencement speech given by Fred Rogers (a/k/a "Mister Rogers"):

When I was a freshman in college, I met someone who knew a very famous songwriter. Ever since I was a little boy, I had wanted to meet that songwriter. I was convinced that if I could just get him to hear my songs (I think I had five songs then), he would be so impressed with them that he would introduce me to Broadway and I would be an instant, successful composer of show tunes.

I was able to get an interview with that man, and I remember so well going to New York and all the way thinking: "This is it. I'll probably have to give up college and get an apartment in the city, and my parents will be so proud of me, and before long my five songs will be sung by millions of Broadway show-goers."

That's not what happened. The famous composer was very welcoming to me. He asked me to play a couple of those original songs for him, and he listened intently while I played them and sang the words as well as I could. When I was finished, he said, "Very nice, Fred. Now, how many songs have you written?" I told him five, and I had brought them all. Then he said something that has become very important to me. He said, "I'd like you to come back after you've written a barrel-full, and we'll talk again."

Can you imagine how I felt? A barrel-full of songs! That would mean hundreds of songs—and at that moment I had only five. I can still remember the disappointment I felt as I rode all the way back to college. Nevertheless, that man's counsel was more inspired than I realized. It took me years to understand that. But, of course, what he knew was that if I really wanted to be a songwriter, I'd have to write songs, not just think about the five I had written. And so after the initial disappointment, I got to work; and through the years, one by one, I have written a barrel-full of songs.

In fact, the barrel's overflowing now... and I can tell you those songs didn't write themselves. I wrote them—and the more I wrote, the better the songs became. I wished to be a songwriter, and I attached my work to my wish and that wish came true.

Source: http://pbskids.org/rogers...ughts5.htm

matt said:

That was beautiful... He will be missed.

Case in point Matt. Thanks for that.

tommyalma said:

michael jackson has never in his life had only a 2 year span in between solo albums. like Tron said you would have to wait your traditional 5 years for an album from michael.

Wolf said:

But,let's be honest,MOST artists do take several years between albums.Madonna releases a new CD every three years,as does Janet,Whitney,and almost everybody else.There are very few artists who release a new album once a year.My feeling is,I don't mind waiting for that "great" album.I would rather wait three years for a GREAT album from my favorite artists,instead of settling for a mediocre album every year from my favorite artists.

DavidEye said:

If you think about it though, Madonna has been much more productive than the other artists you mentioned. From the timespan of 1983-2003, Michael has only had 5 proper albums out. Madonna will have twice that number and several tide-me-over projects (Who's That Girl, Something to Remember, etc.) That's 10 albums in a 20 year span, which averages out to a new release every other year. That's better than most other pop stars can claim. And from Janet, it's more like an album every 4 years. It's different when you have some cult status and your fanbase can support an album/year.

I'd Settle for a Happy Balance between MJ&Prince.Somewhere in Between that balances things out.I think it depends on the Artist.I Would Like for MJ to release more but I also understand why He doesn't as well.as for Prince:in the 80's before enhanced Discs going in at 74-77 Minutes His Work made you crave more&extended stuff but in the 90's IMHO More with Prince became a Dead-End of alot of Filler.so I think some things balance there own selves out.