I think he's more celebrated by his personality and his maverick life than by his boxing

one of the greats? SURE. The most famous boxer of all time? Probably. The greatest? I still think Tyson could have kicked his ass if he had started his career in the 70s

what irks me is the fact that he's sometimes considered as the best "athlete" of all time...WTF??? Pele, Jordan, Lewis, etc

Timmy84 said:

I can kinda see why people say Ali "risked" a lot but I think Ali was caught between a rock and a hard place when it came to Vietnam. In the Thrilla in Manilla documentary, the NOI member who was mentoring Ali at the time and actually gave Ali his name from Cassius Clay (who was actually an abolitionist and not a "slave master" since Ali allegedly changed it because his name came from a "slave master" when it didn't) coached him to say the things he said. There was no way that Ali could've gotten drafted anyway if the rules hadn't changed in 1967, when he took his Select Service exam he bombed so badly he was deemed unqualified to enter but in 1967, they changed it on purpose. Why? I don't know but probably to see how Ali would react.

In his converted religion, he was taught that unless you were attacked, you had no reason to fight so he refused based on that purpose and also because Elijah Muhammad kept warning him not to do it because of "the blue eyed devils" and all that bullshit that was whispered in Ali's ear. You have to remember during that time Ali was naive about a lot of things. He surely knew about racism though. The only reason he even joined was because he was still emotionally scarred by being turned away from eating a burger in a Louisville restaurant because of his color despite his gold medal (there's still a question as to whether he really threw it or not or sold it) and also because he felt the Muslims talked a good game. I think he really joined because he dug Malcolm X. The NOI controlled him just as much as the people who helped Ali's initial boxing career.

I don't think he went in to avoid the draft to be a conscientious objector but because he was now a follower of "Allah", don't get into a "Christian's war" unless you were provoked. Ali took the role of conscientious objector after finding out a lot of folks, black and white, were avoiding the draft. Ali was said to have been petrified of disobeying Elijah Muhammad. Sugar Ray Robinson, or another boxer, once came to his hotel room and tried to get Ali to change his mind and encountered a scared out of his wits Ali. Nevertheless the religion thing saved his hide in the end with the Supreme Court but it was almost a split decision. Thurgood Marshall recused himself from being part of the decision.

The truth is not as perfect as a myth.

[Edited 9/30/12 21:42pm]

I"m not going to go too deep into this because I promised myself I'd say little as possible... besides I know me.

This about the most simplistic summation of that time, what Clay/Ali stood for, the Nation of Islam, and the politics of Vietnam. Believe me a lot more things happened to Clay/Ali..... to Black people during that period. Being turned away from an eatery wasn't the only earth shattering thing that could've and did happened to Ali are anybody Black in Louisville or anywhere else in the USA.

Myth? The truth is so much more hard to take than fiction, that's why Black folks are walking around today talking about that was a long time ago. When in many instances things haven't changed as much as they have transformed.

===================

[Edited 10/1/12 13:52pm]

George Forman now claiming that he was drugged.

So, was he drugged when he lost to Jimmy Young?

Or when he got knocked down a few times by Ron Lyle, before winning the fight?

Ali was just the better fighter that night.

But I've always wondered how come there was no rematch tho'

Purely as a boxer? Y.E.S.

KingBAD said:

sugar ray lenard was over rated

ali was the greatest at the time (before prison)

he continued to be great for awhile and then

it was over.

he was never 'over rated' just not the greatest of all time.

when you look at todays fighters you'd be hard pressed to find

any in comparison. if i remember right, they were fighting

15 rounds at times back then.

tyson was a great fighter, for a time.

no-one has gotten close to whut he had done.

so really, the caliber of fighters now and to come

will never match whut we have already seen.

It's kinda sad that Ali's fights in the '60s can't be looked on with the same vigor critics give his fights in the '70s. The "Fight of the Century" (which was only made a big deal because of the politricks behind it led by Ali), the "Rumble in the Jungle" (which some native Zairians took a profound dislike to, since Ali and Don King named it) and the Thrilla in Manila (which was overhyped) were iconic fights but his best ring moments were, as you said, pre-prison. I just think people were really trying to find a place for Ali. Like the more he bragged the more he was believed. I mean we're dealing with a guy who was probably a better manipulator than a social hero as some keep on preaching about but you hardly hear that. Without Ali, you wouldn't have had a Tyson or a Floyd Mayweather or a Sugar Ray who were able to move tickets by selling themselves to the masses. That's probably why Ali keeps being revered the way he does. But you can't say that, people would think "oh but Ali was misunderstood"...

JoeTyler said:

I think he's more celebrated by his personality and his maverick life than by his boxing

one of the greats? SURE. The most famous boxer of all time? Probably. The greatest? I still think Tyson could have kicked his ass if he had started his career in the 70s

what irks me is the fact that he's sometimes considered as the best "athlete" of all time...WTF??? Pele, Jordan, Lewis, etc

I've seen that too and I always shook my head like "best athlete?" Boxing, when you get down to the basics, is not actually a hard sport to get into, it's harder to do what Ali did with his movements, sure, but if you have good fists and a good chin, you can easily be a boxer. It takes more skill to play soccer, basketball, football, baseball and even wrestling than it does boxing. Also, you're right about his personality being celebrated than his boxing. That's what made him an icon besides his "dancing moves" and "rope-a-dope". You hardly, if ever, hear about his skills in the ring. Some didn't think Ali was much of a boxer at all, just a mover. I think some of the boxers he fought with said something like that, I know Larry Holmes said it numerous times.

HuMpThAnG said:

George Forman now claiming that he was drugged.

So, was he drugged when he lost to Jimmy Young?

Or when he got knocked down a few times by Ron Lyle, before winning the fight?

Ali was just the better fighter that night.

But I've always wondered how come there was no rematch tho'

I've gotta read on why there wasn't a rematch. Some said Foreman was too spooked to fight Ali again because of his manipulation powers. I think he remembered what Sonny Liston told him when Liston trained him in the late 1960s right before he entered the Olympics about what Ali did to spook him in the two fights they had and the tactics Ali and his entourage did to make him uneasy by fight night.

As for the fights with Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle, I don't know about drugs, but George was going through a rough patch. He actually was managed by Marvin Gaye once and Gaye set up his own "bum of the month club" for George to fight five washed-up boxers in one day. I saw footage of this on "Beyond the Glory", it was like a three-ring circus.

I don't know if he released a biography or not but he probably did indulge in cocaine after the Ali fight until he was born again and became a preacher in '78. "Rumble in the Jungle" was a mythical fight though. Ali tested Foreman the same way Foreman tested Michael Moorer in their fight though in the Ali fight, Ali was connecting more with his punches in the head than Foreman was connecting to Ali's body when Ali did the rope-a-dope.

[Edited 10/1/12 7:34am]

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think he's more celebrated by his personality and his maverick life than by his boxing

one of the greats? SURE. The most famous boxer of all time? Probably. The greatest? I still think Tyson could have kicked his ass if he had started his career in the 70s

what irks me is the fact that he's sometimes considered as the best "athlete" of all time...WTF??? Pele, Jordan, Lewis, etc

I've seen that too and I always shook my head like "best athlete?" Boxing, when you get down to the basics, is not actually a hard sport to get into, it's harder to do what Ali did with his movements, sure, but if you have good fists and a good chin, you can easily be a boxer. It takes more skill to play soccer, basketball, football, baseball and even wrestling than it does boxing. Also, you're right about his personality being celebrated than his boxing. That's what made him an icon besides his "dancing moves" and "rope-a-dope". You hardly, if ever, hear about his skills in the ring. Some didn't think Ali was much of a boxer at all, just a mover. I think some of the boxers he fought with said something like that, I know Larry Holmes said it numerous times.

I totally disagree. Boxing takes strength, speed, instinct, strategy, toughness...and because it's an individual sport, you have to do it all well!

it's pure athleticism. Maybe the ultimate sport, IMO.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I think he's more celebrated by his personality and his maverick life than by his boxing

one of the greats? SURE. The most famous boxer of all time? Probably. The greatest? I still think Tyson could have kicked his ass if he had started his career in the 70s

what irks me is the fact that he's sometimes considered as the best "athlete" of all time...WTF??? Pele, Jordan, Lewis, etc

I've seen that too and I always shook my head like "best athlete?"

Lol..............spoken like someone who has NEVER been in the ring.

Graycap23 said:

Timmy84 said:

I've seen that too and I always shook my head like "best athlete?"

Lol..............spoken like someone who has NEVER been in the ring.

Exactly...I lol'd when I saw those comments too. Let's see some of these cats get in a ring and last 15 rounds in 100+ degree weather. I've trained with boxers and NDRU is right - it's pure athleticism. Plus it takes HEART to get in that ring.

I grew up during that era, and Ali was my first sports hero(and still is). He was a fucking MAN, in and out of the ring. Guys like Ali, Jim Brown, Bill Russell - today's afraid-to-take-a-stand athletes are lightweights compared to them.

[Edited 10/1/12 10:40am]

Timmy84 said:

if you have good fists and a good chin, you can easily be a boxer. It takes more skill to play soccer, basketball, football, baseball and even wrestling than it does boxing.

I couldn't disagree more. I'd even go so far as to say BOLLOCKS! With a smile. Especially when you include feckin rounders in with all that. If you gave a caveman a stick and threw stones at him, how long do you think it'd take him to work out how to hit em away? Football, or soccer if you must, is a team game. If you have a bad day, or you're just a bit shit, you can 'go missing' and get away with it for a while. You wont get your head taken off for missing a volley. Football, or American pansy-rugby, is another team game, when they're not stopping the game to scratch their arses every 2 minutes. Baseball, well, that's rounders but still, another team game. Wrestling is just grown men cuddling and getting sweaty, far too much nut-sniffing for me but at least it's one on one.

There's nowhere to hide in boxing. If you have an off day, you get your arse kicked. You might even be killed or seriously maimed. Nigel Benn v Gerald Mcclellan comes to mind. Probably the worst fight I ever saw. Not because of the boxing but because of the outcome and the fact that when Nigel got knocked out of the ring I was screaming "Kill him Nige" and he got up and very nearly did. Doesn't matter if you've got a good chin with a few one-twos, you wont get very far if you've got nothing more. We could all call ourselves Boxers, Footballers, Astronauts or anything else but to actually be one and a successful one at that, is a very different matter.

I'm not talking about modern day fighters so much. Nowadays it seems any twat can get in the ring and get hit, plenty have made a good career doing just that. Look at what's around now, it's an embarrassment to the sport. There's been a few chancers in the past but nothing like on todays scale.

Have a look at Joe Calzaghe vs. Jeff Lacy, then come back and tell us there's more skill in rounders.

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

Lol..............spoken like someone who has NEVER been in the ring.

Exactly...I lol'd when I saw those comments too. Let's see some of these cats get in a ring and last 15 rounds in 100+ degree weather. I've trained with boxers and NDRU is right - it's pure athleticism. Plus it takes HEART to get in that ring.

I grew up during that era, and Ali was my first sports hero(and still is). He was a fucking MAN, in and out of the ring. Guys like Ali, Jim Brown, Bill Russell - today's afraid-to-take-a-stand athletes are lightweights compared to them.

[Edited 10/1/12 10:40am]

I'd like 2 see any novice last a single 3 minute round.

It would be the LONGEST 3 minutes of their lives.

^^ And y'all been in the ring?

NDRU said:

Timmy84 said:

I've seen that too and I always shook my head like "best athlete?" Boxing, when you get down to the basics, is not actually a hard sport to get into, it's harder to do what Ali did with his movements, sure, but if you have good fists and a good chin, you can easily be a boxer. It takes more skill to play soccer, basketball, football, baseball and even wrestling than it does boxing. Also, you're right about his personality being celebrated than his boxing. That's what made him an icon besides his "dancing moves" and "rope-a-dope". You hardly, if ever, hear about his skills in the ring. Some didn't think Ali was much of a boxer at all, just a mover. I think some of the boxers he fought with said something like that, I know Larry Holmes said it numerous times.

I totally disagree. Boxing takes strength, speed, instinct, strategy, toughness...and because it's an individual sport, you have to do it all well!

it's pure athleticism. Maybe the ultimate sport, IMO.

I thought the ultimate sport was GYMNASTICS

[Edited 10/1/12 11:03am]

Timmy84 said:

^^ And y'all been in the ring?

Yes 4 many years......that is why I know what I'm talking about.

JoeTyler said:

NDRU said:

I totally disagree. Boxing takes strength, speed, instinct, strategy, toughness...and because it's an individual sport, you have to do it all well!

it's pure athleticism. Maybe the ultimate sport, IMO.

I thought the ultimate sport was GYMNASTICS

Shit... like I said there are sports that are more difficult. I love boxing, don't get me wrong, but it's not the hardest sport in the world. I didn't say Ali wasn't a genius in the ring. Jesus Christ folks.

[Edited 10/1/12 11:08am]

Timmy84 said:

^^ And y'all been in the ring?

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I thought the ultimate sport was GYMNASTICS

Shit... like I said there are sports that are more difficult. I love boxing, don't get me wrong, but it's not the hardest sport in the world. I didn't say Ali wasn't a genius in the ring. Jesus Christ folks.

No body is trying 2 kill u in gymnastics............

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I thought the ultimate sport was GYMNASTICS

Shit... like I said there are sports that are more difficult. I love boxing, don't get me wrong, but it's not the hardest sport in the world. I didn't say Ali wasn't a genius in the ring. Jesus Christ folks.

damn, I changed the pic when i realized some people could make silly comments about that puss*

you're fast Tim

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

^^ And y'all been in the ring?

I'm saying. I mean yeah explain why boxing is a tough sport - it is in terms of what happens if you get hit (and don't execute correctly or if you do...), but damn, did it had to go that extreme?

But really, in your views Gray, Funkyman, NDRU, etc., does Ali register as "greatest athlete of all time"? Not just greatest boxer (and even that is questionable because you can argue Sugar Ray Robinson was, but due to failure of many Sugar Ray film reels in his heyday, people will dismiss it as hearsay) but greatest athlete altogether. Tell me you don't believe THAT hype, do ya?

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Shit... like I said there are sports that are more difficult. I love boxing, don't get me wrong, but it's not the hardest sport in the world. I didn't say Ali wasn't a genius in the ring. Jesus Christ folks.

damn, I changed the pic when i realized some people could make silly comments about that puss*

you're fast Tim

Edited.

Gray, you might wanna edit yours too so it won't seem like you put it in there, perv.

[Edited 10/1/12 11:09am]

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

damn, I changed the pic when i realized some people could make silly comments about that puss*

you're fast Tim

Edited.

Gray, you might wanna edit yours too so it won't seem like you put it in there, perv.

[Edited 10/1/12 11:09am]

nah, let them enjoy the puss

that alone makes gymnatics better than boxing

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Edited.

Gray, you might wanna edit yours too so it won't seem like you put it in there, perv.

[Edited 10/1/12 11:09am]

nah, let them enjoy the puss

that alone makes gymnatics better than boxing

Can't argue that one.

I tried gymnastics in college........damn near killed myself on the balance beams.

Never tried that again.

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Edited.

Gray, you might wanna edit yours too so it won't seem like you put it in there, perv.

[Edited 10/1/12 11:09am]

nah, let them enjoy the puss

that alone makes gymnatics better than boxing

Good point.

Anyway, where we? Oh yeah, I think Ali deserved to be called one of the greats, I just think he's not THE GREATEST. Remember, any myth that's repeated is bound to be "true" by historians lol

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

I'm saying. I mean yeah explain why boxing is a tough sport - it is in terms of what happens if you get hit (and don't execute correctly or if you do...), but damn, did it had to go that extreme?

But really, in your views Gray, Funkyman, NDRU, etc., does Ali register as "greatest athlete of all time"? Not just greatest boxer (and even that is questionable because you can argue Sugar Ray Robinson was, but due to failure of many Sugar Ray film reels in his heyday, people will dismiss it as hearsay) but greatest athlete altogether. Tell me you don't believe THAT hype, do ya?

exactly

anyway, by that logic, ANY martial arts discipline has more merit than boxing

how many SECONDS would a boxer last against a kickboxer champion?? an aikido champion? a karate champion?

10,15, 30 seconds?

lol

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

I'm saying. I mean yeah explain why boxing is a tough sport - it is in terms of what happens if you get hit (and don't execute correctly or if you do...), but damn, did it had to go that extreme?

But really, in your views Gray, Funkyman, NDRU, etc., does Ali register as "greatest athlete of all time"? Not just greatest boxer (and even that is questionable because you can argue Sugar Ray Robinson was, but due to failure of many Sugar Ray film reels in his heyday, people will dismiss it as hearsay) but greatest athlete altogether. Tell me you don't believe THAT hype, do ya?

exactly

anyway, by that logic, ANY martial arts discipline has more merit than boxing

how many SECONDS would a boxer last against a kickboxer champion?? an aikido champion? a karate champion?

10,15, 30 seconds?

lol

Hell if we're gonna go on greatest athletes, Bruce Lee is a better athlete lol

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

exactly

anyway, by that logic, ANY martial arts discipline has more merit than boxing

how many SECONDS would a boxer last against a kickboxer champion?? an aikido champion? a karate champion?

10,15, 30 seconds?

lol

Hell if we're gonna go on greatest athletes, Bruce Lee is a better athlete lol

in the end, the "M.ALI WAS THE GREATEST.PERIOD" reminds me of "ELVIS WAS THE GREATEST.PERIOD"

lololol

[Edited 10/1/12 11:24am]

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

nah, let them enjoy the puss

that alone makes gymnatics better than boxing

Good point.

Anyway, where we? Oh yeah, I think Ali deserved to be called one of the greats, I just think he's not THE GREATEST. Remember, any myth that's repeated is bound to be "true" by historians lol

He is NOT the greatest boxer.......not even close.

Greatest Heavyweight, probably.

but Sugar Ray Robinson is the G.O.A.T. imo.

Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

exactly

anyway, by that logic, ANY martial arts discipline has more merit than boxing

how many SECONDS would a boxer last against a kickboxer champion?? an aikido champion? a karate champion?

10,15, 30 seconds?

lol

Hell if we're gonna go on greatest athletes, Bruce Lee is a better athlete lol

I don't think it's that easy. Bruce Lee was quoted as saying Muhammed Ali would kick his ass Speed and agility is one thing, size and strength another. Endurance is another. A marathon runner doesn't do flips, but they are also phenomenal athletes.

Besides, boxing and martial arts are different sports. You wouldn't have someone play football against someone playing basketball. Or have a runner race a swimmer.