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So I Watched Robert Altman's "3 Women" And What The HELL?! - Call It An Appreciation Thread [img:$uid]http://godisnotelsewhere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/3-women.jpg[/img:$uid]
Everytime I wanted to turn off the film, something held me back. Its so hypnotic, dark, mysterious and the personification of a TRUE mind fuck. I keep hearing the "dream sequence" being refered to some films, but this one really carried it. It left such an impression on me the first time a couple of years ago when I went to a free screening in NYC with a friend, I decided I wanted to watch it till the end again just so I could get a full understanding of the plot, but I ended up more confused. I imagine that this might make some sense if I watched it while I'm high, but I don't wanna entertain the idea
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[img:$uid]http://u1.ipernity.com/6/10/28/3911028.cf7465ca.560.jpg[/img:$uid]
For those who watched the film, there're so many questions roaming in my head, but I'll settle with a few so humor me if you can:
1) How did the mural paintings fit the story?
2) What really led to Pinky Rose(Sissy Spacek)'s change beside the coma?
3) Ok, somebody better walk me through that ending because there's definitly an overlap between it and Willie's unfortunate loss. Edgar died(How?) and what led the Shelly and Sissy characters to end up playing the mother/daughter role.
The director said the film came to him in a dream, and they improvised the script as the film was shooting(!!!), and that he TOO wasn't sure about the ending, that its up for interpretation. If he really did come up with a conclusion, he took it with him when he passed away.
And don't get me started on the gorgeous cinematography because it deserves another thread | |
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Ooooooh sounds interesting - putting that on my list  I'm the mistake you wanna make | |
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This is wild! I just bought this movie on ebay and watched it this afternoon!
I have seen this movie several times. It's fascinating and weird.
1) I still have not figured out what the murals mean. They may be Willie's way of venting because her husband was a dick. 2) I think Pinky was searching for an identity. Notice how she was fascinated by the twins and in awe of Millie and studied her diary. I think her fascination with the twins, her fascination with Millie & Millie's diary, the shock of Millie yelling at her surviving her suicide somewhere in her subconscious she took on that new persona. 3) All 3 were in these worlds they created for themselves because they couldn't deal with their particular realities. Willie's world was painting violent looking murals while not dealing with her husbands philandering, lost & naive Pinky taking on a new identity during her coma, Millie living in her own detatched little world with perfect home, perfect hair, perfect recipes, ect. I think all three dealing with Edgar triggered all of these events that snapped them all back into reality. I think they killed Edgar (notice all three learned how to shoot a gun) and all took on new identities to protect each other. That's what I got from it.
Now that I own I can watch it to see other little nuances I missed. Yes I agree with you about the cinematography, just a weird, but great film. [Edited 8/12/12 19:43pm] | |
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I remember reading that Robert Altman said that the character Edgar was buried under those wheel tires.
Yeah, the mural seem like a release from Willie's perspective, but the way they were segued between most scenes tell me that they serve a stronger purpose than just Willie venting.
Good call on the ending
I fell in love with Shelly Duvall after this film. [Edited 8/12/12 19:58pm] | |
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I forgot to mention the use of water cinematography with the music score - by Gerald Busby - playing in the background could sure put somebody in a trance.hmm, I have never seen this movie, but I do love Robert Altman (Dr T & Popeye aside). I think I will have to check this out. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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1) How did the mural paintings fit the story? The murals being painted by the much less depicted third women, Willie , to me are her attempts to express her rage, her profoundly fractured state, perhaps even her rape at the hands of male sexual dysfunction. And the three women are all linked by the drunkard, the abuser, the depraved Tom. But that's certainly not the end of the chain of broken glass. Shelly Duvall, Millie, was created out of a mistake and abandoned, which seems to have made her organize herself into the perfect victim. It's the most personally painful for me to watch. This mother figure, so utterly empty inside, has created a whole other persona to expertly shield herself from anything that may cause her harm: people snickering, mocking her every step, using her openness for a quick fuck. The other main women, Pinky, played by Sissy Spacek, we'll find out later, though we already strongly suspect (she washes her panties out each night by hand) is playing out different types of brokenness brought upon no doubt by a deeply depraved father (and/or perhaps others) who seem to have kept her twenties locked in a perpetual state of mostly early childhood. Watch her crawl into the teepee or jump for joy at the sight of the miniature golf course. Males in this film do little more than mumble, grunt, ride motorcycles, shoot guns and drink beer, yet you can feel their DNA sprayed all over these three fractured women (notice Pinky not only gulp down a mug so uncharacteristically as her childlike self, but later as an "adult" spit it back at Tom playfully and then laugh heartily like some degenerate male from her past). To me the murals link it all, regardless of how much Willie was conscious of this fact during their creation. 2) What really led to Pinky Rose(Sissy Spacek)'s change beside the coma Something untoward could've happened at that hospital (it's hinted at). But at this point I'm more inclined to believe that it was only that Pinky was searching for an identity at the time of this trauma and that a person her childlike self saw as "perfect", right down to the social security number, was one of the triggers. Thus enters the doubled persona; the wild and promiscuous half. But, shortly thereafter, the intense nightmare reverses the process and the sight of more human sexuality (here, birth) sends the child into even more of a panic (note the water line on the window she's viewing the birth from alternately submerge and rescue her). Watch Millie admonish Pinky as a child when she sees that she has frozen in time rather than seeking help for the emergency. Note also how the other two women are linked with her even further when their images in the hospital glass are doubled as each in turn looks in at Pinky's coma. These three women are all currently much less than they could be if they weren't ever under the control of this perpetual male brokenness. 3) Ok, somebody better walk me through that ending because there's definitely an overlap between it and Willie's unfortunate loss. Edgar died(How?) and what led the Shelly and Sissy characters to end up playing the mother/daughter role. Like everything, I believe the film leaves that up to the viewer. To me, the women -- almost assuredly at the behest of Millie -- have found a way to remove their most obvious repugnancy while still very much remaining frozen in the roles they created at the hands of dysfunctional males (mother, child, abandoned/raped) Of course removal of the poison is the obvious choice; a personal death penalty, something we all instinctively and immediately would probably wish to do. But it's also very tragic. You can't really live by shutting the rest of the world out. Not everyone is so fractured that they only wish to expertly perpetuate. Some, probably most, are still sickened at the sight of such separation of self. Just a few thoughts about a filmmaker and film that has moved me. Nothing written in stone and plenty of room left for more thinking. A "mind fuck" is good way to put it. And I'm glad, though not really all that surprised knowing a tiny bit about you, that you stuck with it.  | |
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After I posted this thread, I checked out Tumblr and Amazon's review section, read a few just to get some clues, but one thing I noticed in a couple of reviews along with yours is the "motherhood" factor, which unbeknownst to me was apparently a very present yet subtle theme that became more pronounced in the ending. Its so amazing that you came up with that interpretation because it totally makes sense.
Here's the review I'm talking about:
After watching the film a few times and enjoying the strangeness and ambiguity, it finally clicked as to why I enjoy the film so much. It's about something quite universal and offers a fresh insight into something that is an integral part of our culture: Motherhood.
If you haven't seen the film, stop reading. If you've seen it, bear with me. Many people have talked about the 'personality swap' that takes place between Pinky and Millie. That never rang true to me. They certainly don't swap personalities, although Pinky exhibits a new personality after she jumps into the pool. This film is simply about what a mother experiences as her daughter grows into a woman. And so many details and moments in the film say volumes about the painful realizations and feelings that many mothers go through, feelings that have never been dramatized as creatively as Altman has done here. For this reason alone, this film is a gift. Millie is introduced as a bit directionless, always trying to fit in, but never garnering the attention, respect or love she longs for. He coworkers ignore her rants, her neighbors dismiss her, and her former roommate blows her off. But along comes Pinky, strangely childlike considering her apparent age. She is simply the daughter that enters this lonely woman's life. Not literally, but none-the-less, the relationship proceeds this way. Millie is suddenly the center of her new daughter's universe. We see Millie blush at the attention and adoration she has never received. Like any mother, Millie is constantly guiding and teaching Pinky the proper protocol for every situation - from what to wear, daily routine, entertaining guests--and Pinky absorbs it like a sponge. For many of us who love the film, there has always been something very relatable about the way they connect, even if it's hard to put your finger on. But the dynamics shift when Pinky goes through a symbolic puberty (jumping into the pool). Not coincidentally, this shift is set off by Millie's betrayal of the 3rd woman (Willie, symbolically the grandmother in some respects). After coming out of a coma, Pinky is suddenly a sexual being. Watching how Millie reacts to the new Pinky is quite illuminating, considering that most parents experience this surreal process during their life. The mother has to watch her daughter blossom and have it rubbed in her face that she is past her own sexual prime (this is dramatized by the way neighbor Tom gives Pinky the attention Millie never was able to get). The Mother has to see her own bad habits and traits reflected back via her daughter's behavior (Pinky's new smoking habit and garish use of makeup). And most painfully, the mother falls of her perch as center of her daughter's universe. For those of us who appreciate the film, this is the real heart of the watching Shelley Duvall and Sissy Spacek go through the surreal turns of this story. It is something absolutely universal. Something our parents silently went through as we became new creatures in our blossoming adolescence. By not presenting Millie and Pinky as literal mother and child, Altman may alienate some less-discerning viewers. But what he achieves is worth it: He presents how surreal and alienating these parts of the parenting process are. It's a mysterious shift in balance of power, in focus of affection, in bond, and it ultimately leads to a disturbing realization... something that can't be expressed in a self-help book or a parenting manual, but it's hauntingly expressed in the still-birth sequence at the end. The strange coda to the film, which shows the 3 women working at Dodge City with all male interference cast aside, has also baffled viewers. But I would argue that Altman smartly used this ending to provide a key to understanding the film. In this final scene, the women are blatantly portrayed as a family: Willie is cast as the grandmother, Millie as the mother, and Pinky as the daughter. It feels very different in tone than the rest of the movie: more theatrical and symbolic. This coda kept encouraging me to revisit the film and puzzle through its mysteries. Many reviews on this site insist that there is no method to Altman's madness. I would argue that it's an example of his genius. He may not have even defined them exactly as mother/daughter in his mind, but he was certainly interested in portraying truth, and that essential truth has made this a beloved film, even for those who prefer not to dissect it.
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If you can tolerate slow paced films, I think you'll enjoy this one, and if you don't mind the eccentricities of the characters, you might even enjoy it
Wait a minute, I'm talking to a David Lynch fan | |
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My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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I'm terrible at these type of interpetations, but it was a good movie that left a lot to the imagination but was satisfying at the same time.
Millie always in yellow, is that type that tries desperatly to fit in and be normal but never succeeds, but of the three is the most normal. I think she used her previous roommate as a opening to the world which is why she tried so hard to make a perfect dinner party, and then showing her frustration she sleeps with Willie's husband which is probably what the old roommate did and snaps at Pinky since she's absolutely useless as a social outlet.
Pinky always in pink, is that childlike blank slate seeking something to fill it, automatically gravites to Millie. It odd how she goes about stealing Millie's idenity but she doesn't actual impersonate Millie, she even starts to fit in where Millie can't. And how the only thing we know about her are her parents are too old to actually be her parents so the back story on that one it open. I think she was just raise very cloistered and completely sheltered, stating that raggedy bar was Disneyland and thinking Millie's kitchen is big was telling. And she went through 2 personality changes, which baffled me.
Willie all earth tones, seems to be so disappointed with the world that she withdrew into her art. Her murals reminded me of angry monkey people, maybe that's how she saw the entire world. That one male monkey always over the fighting female monkeys. All three of them ended up sleeping with the same man. And a useless bottom feeder at that. | |
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The only Robert Altman film I've watched all the way through is Gosford Park. We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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^ I liked that one.
I'm getting you're not to crazy about his movies? | |
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And you're saying you're terrible at interpretations?
Its so funny that you mentioned Millie's loud wardrope, come to think of it, its seem like a statement to draw attention, along with the furniture. It didn't cross my mind until you pointed it out. | |
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I haven't seen that many, to be honest. But those I have seen always seem to jump the rails, at some point.
I remember seeing Pret a Porter at a theater on New Year's Eve one year. Now, I admit I had a couple glasses of wine at dinner, but that alone wouldn't have made me fall asleep during the movie. We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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Never saw that. But if it put you to sleep then I guess that would turn one off to his movies.
Brendan said: Pinky, played by Sissy Spacek, we'll find out later, though we already strongly suspect (she washes her panties out each night by hand) is playing out different types of brokenness brought upon no doubt by a deeply depraved father (and/or perhaps others)
I'm going to have to disagree at this part. I think the fact that she washed out her panties was to say that was the only pair she owned. Couple that with the amount of clothes she had in her closet. I'd say she came from a very poor underprivledged rural background. Which is why she was so impress with Millie in the first place, she seemed so bright and shiny. But I think she was looking for a mother figure which might explain the second personality change. | |
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That was not the greatest movie, no. I felt like it was some kind of attempt to capitalize on the mainstream success of The Player.
It was one of those movies that was probably tons of fun to make, and not that great to watch. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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morningsong said:
Never saw that. But if it put you to sleep then I guess that would turn one off to his movies.
Brendan said: Pinky, played by Sissy Spacek, we'll find out later, though we already strongly suspect (she washes her panties out each night by hand) is playing out different types of brokenness brought upon no doubt by a deeply depraved father (and/or perhaps others)
I'm going to have to disagree at this part. I think the fact that she washed out her panties was to say that was the only pair she owned. Couple that with the amount of clothes she had in her closet. I'd say she came from a very poor underprivledged rural background. Which is why she was so impress with Millie in the first place, she seemed so bright and shiny. But I think she was looking for a mother figure which might explain the second personality change. It's a great point. I'll just say that these three women are all potentially deeply broken by the brokenness of the broken patriarch. It's true, whether or not it was sexual dysfunction, I cannot say. Being terribly guarded to point of still being childlike is very possible, if not right on the nose! | |
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NDRU said:
That was not the greatest movie, no. I felt like it was some kind of attempt to capitalize on the mainstream success of The Player.
It was one of those movies that was probably tons of fun to make, and not that great to watch. I've never seen that movie. But Altman's very spontaneous methods certainly might partially explain his very hit-or-miss nature. And not seeing much of his hits probably make the misses that much more insufferable. | |
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Harlepolis said: After I posted this thread, I checked out Tumblr and Amazon's review section, read a few just to get some clues, but one thing I noticed in a couple of reviews along with yours is the "motherhood" factor, which unbeknownst to me was apparently a very present yet subtle theme that became more pronounced in the ending. Its so amazing that you came up with that interpretation because it totally makes sense.
Here's the review I'm talking about:
After watching the film a few times and enjoying the strangeness and ambiguity, it finally clicked as to why I enjoy the film so much. It's about something quite universal and offers a fresh insight into something that is an integral part of our culture: Motherhood. If you haven't seen the film, stop reading. If you've seen it, bear with me. Many people have talked about the 'personality swap' that takes place between Pinky and Millie. That never rang true to me. They certainly don't swap personalities, although Pinky exhibits a new personality after she jumps into the pool. This film is simply about what a mother experiences as her daughter grows into a woman. And so many details and moments in the film say volumes about the painful realizations and feelings that many mothers go through, feelings that have never been dramatized as creatively as Altman has done here. For this reason alone, this film is a gift. Millie is introduced as a bit directionless, always trying to fit in, but never garnering the attention, respect or love she longs for. He coworkers ignore her rants, her neighbors dismiss her, and her former roommate blows her off. But along comes Pinky, strangely childlike considering her apparent age. She is simply the daughter that enters this lonely woman's life. Not literally, but none-the-less, the relationship proceeds this way. Millie is suddenly the center of her new daughter's universe. We see Millie blush at the attention and adoration she has never received. Like any mother, Millie is constantly guiding and teaching Pinky the proper protocol for every situation - from what to wear, daily routine, entertaining guests--and Pinky absorbs it like a sponge. For many of us who love the film, there has always been something very relatable about the way they connect, even if it's hard to put your finger on. But the dynamics shift when Pinky goes through a symbolic puberty (jumping into the pool). Not coincidentally, this shift is set off by Millie's betrayal of the 3rd woman (Willie, symbolically the grandmother in some respects). After coming out of a coma, Pinky is suddenly a sexual being. Watching how Millie reacts to the new Pinky is quite illuminating, considering that most parents experience this surreal process during their life. The mother has to watch her daughter blossom and have it rubbed in her face that she is past her own sexual prime (this is dramatized by the way neighbor Tom gives Pinky the attention Millie never was able to get). The Mother has to see her own bad habits and traits reflected back via her daughter's behavior (Pinky's new smoking habit and garish use of makeup). And most painfully, the mother falls of her perch as center of her daughter's universe. For those of us who appreciate the film, this is the real heart of the watching Shelley Duvall and Sissy Spacek go through the surreal turns of this story. It is something absolutely universal. Something our parents silently went through as we became new creatures in our blossoming adolescence. By not presenting Millie and Pinky as literal mother and child, Altman may alienate some less-discerning viewers. But what he achieves is worth it: He presents how surreal and alienating these parts of the parenting process are. It's a mysterious shift in balance of power, in focus of affection, in bond, and it ultimately leads to a disturbing realization... something that can't be expressed in a self-help book or a parenting manual, but it's hauntingly expressed in the still-birth sequence at the end. The strange coda to the film, which shows the 3 women working at Dodge City with all male interference cast aside, has also baffled viewers. But I would argue that Altman smartly used this ending to provide a key to understanding the film. In this final scene, the women are blatantly portrayed as a family: Willie is cast as the grandmother, Millie as the mother, and Pinky as the daughter. It feels very different in tone than the rest of the movie: more theatrical and symbolic. This coda kept encouraging me to revisit the film and puzzle through its mysteries. Many reviews on this site insist that there is no method to Altman's madness. I would argue that it's an example of his genius. He may not have even defined them exactly as mother/daughter in his mind, but he was certainly interested in portraying truth, and that essential truth has made this a beloved film, even for those who prefer not to dissect it.
Very nice! This "mothering" concept is implanted further in my mind seeing Millie's elderly "parents". Notice how the "grandma" is shown in several instances as being the mother to her own, often bewildered, childlike husband. I think people who wish to feel these things instinctively do, even if they don't, as this person says, "dissect it"; which I've never done with this movie until this very thread. | |
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MASH and McCabe and Mrs.Miller are two of my fav movies of all time, top25 easily
I've also seen Short Cuts, the Player, Gosford Park and Nashville, solid movies that I don't want to revisit anyway
Prét-à-porter was watchable/enjoyable (for what it was), Popeye made me vomit
3 Women looks interesting, I'll check it out, thanks Harlepolis  | |
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