SUPRMAN said:

Saw it in IMAX tonight.

Still convinced Bruce Wayne is dead, Batman is not.

Selena was wearing the pearls in Italy, but that wasn't real.

Alfred breaks down at the end of the memorial. Why? Not to put on a show for those who were there. They all knew Bruce Wayne as Batman.

Alfred, in the beginning only tells him it is a cafe on the Arno River in Italy.

The Arno is 150 miles long and flows through both Florence and Pisa.

How would he know what cafe, at what time?

Fox discovers later that the autopilot was fixed, but we never see Batman use it.

The bomb kept changing.

It was a nuclear bomb (4 megatons), then a neutron bomb (6 mile blast radius), then an atom bomb. Those are three distinct weapons, not interchangeable names for the same device.

I don't know that Bane is dead.

Still enjoyed it thoroughly though.

Selina wearing the pearls or not has no bearing on whether Bruce Wayne is still

alive or dead.

Your chronology of the film is incorrect: Alfred breaks down at Bruce's grave (and

remember, there cannot possibly be a body in that grave because either Bruce's

body was obliterated by the bomb or he's still alive) and then he is overjoyed when

he sees Bruce at the cafe. Speaking of seeing Bruce at the cafe, you still havent

explained why Alfred saw Selina at the cafe. He doesn't know who the fuck Selina

is! And speaking of those logistics you describe: what, you want Nolan to explain

how everything goes down in this movie? It would take 6 hours to do that. It's

a movie, dude! Bruce happens to meet up with Alfred at that cafe because in movies,

anything can happen....like a man surviving a bomb detonation (I don't think this

is the case).

Fox discovering that Bruce fixed the autopilot is a pretty strong indication that

Bruce may have used it before that bomb went off. But just because we don't

see Bruce use it doesn't mean he didn't. We don't see how Bruce returns from

Bane's prison and makes it all the way back to Gotham just in time to save it

from destruction, now do we? And another reason why your argument doesn't

hold: We don't see Bruce blow up while he's in the Batwing, do we? Nope. So

you cannot say for certain that he wasn't in it as well.

As usual, your arguments have holes in them. The only thing you are on point

with is:

We don't know if Bane was killed by that blast. Good point. But this too, has

no bearing on whether Bruce is dead or not. I'ma go see it again at some point.

But you haven't been able to persuade me that Bruce Wayne died in the Batwing

while that bomb went off (neutron, nuclear, atomic...whatever. Being in the

very same proximity a fucking hand grenade goes off, much less a bomb of

any type) means that's your ass.

EDIT: With his visit to the hospital in Aurora, I'm a big fan of Christian Bale.

That made my day. Dude's got class.

[Edited 7/25/12 3:43am]

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

Saw it in IMAX tonight.

Still convinced Bruce Wayne is dead, Batman is not.

Selena was wearing the pearls in Italy, but that wasn't real.

Alfred breaks down at the end of the memorial. Why? Not to put on a show for those who were there. They all knew Bruce Wayne as Batman.

Alfred, in the beginning only tells him it is a cafe on the Arno River in Italy.

The Arno is 150 miles long and flows through both Florence and Pisa.

How would he know what cafe, at what time?

Fox discovers later that the autopilot was fixed, but we never see Batman use it.

The bomb kept changing.

It was a nuclear bomb (4 megatons), then a neutron bomb (6 mile blast radius), then an atom bomb. Those are three distinct weapons, not interchangeable names for the same device.

I don't know that Bane is dead.

Still enjoyed it thoroughly though.

Selina wearing the pearls or not has no bearing on whether Bruce Wayne is still

alive or dead.

Your chronology of the film is incorrect: Alfred breaks down at Bruce's grave (and

remember, there cannot possibly be a body in that grave because either Bruce's

body was obliterated by the bomb or he's still alive) and then he is overjoyed when

he sees Bruce at the cafe. Speaking of seeing Bruce at the cafe, you still havent

explained why Alfred saw Selina at the cafe. He doesn't know who the fuck Selina

is! And speaking of those logistics you describe: what, you want Nolan to explain

how everything goes down in this movie? It would take 6 hours to do that. It's

a movie, dude! Bruce happens to meet up with Alfred at that cafe because in movies,

anything can happen....like a man surviving a bomb detonation (I don't think this

is the case).

Fox discovering that Bruce fixed the autopilot is a pretty strong indication that

Bruce may have used it before that bomb went off. But just because we don't

see Bruce use it doesn't mean he didn't. We don't see how Bruce returns from

Bane's prison and makes it all the way back to Gotham just in time to save it

from destruction, now do we? And another reason why your argument doesn't

hold: We don't see Bruce blow up while he's in the Batwing, do we? Nope. So

you cannot say for certain that he wasn't in it as well.

As usual, your arguments have holes in them. The only thing you are on point

with is:

We don't know if Bane was killed by that blast. Good point. But this too, has

no bearing on whether Bruce is dead or not. I'ma go see it again at some point.

But you haven't been able to persuade me that Bruce Wayne died in the Batwing

while that bomb went off (neutron, nuclear, atomic...whatever. Being in the

very same proximity a fucking hand grenade goes off, much less a bomb of

any type) means that's your ass.

EDIT: With his visit to the hospital in Aurora, I'm a big fan of Christian Bale.

That made my day. Dude's got class.

[Edited 7/25/12 3:43am]

Oops

I didn't know I was trying to convince you or anyone else of anything.

Just my observations on the movie.

I think he's dead, you don't. Oh well. As you said, it's just a movie.

My chronology is incorrect? I didn't lay out a chronology of the film.

imago said:

SUPRMAN said:

Saw it in IMAX tonight.

Still convinced Bruce Wayne is dead, Batman is not.

Selena was wearing the pearls in Italy, but that wasn't real.

Alfred breaks down at the end of the memorial. Why? Not to put on a show for those who were there. They all knew Bruce Wayne as Batman.

Alfred doesn't find out Bruce is alive until the cafe scene.

Alfred, in the beginning only tells him it is a cafe on the Arno River in Italy.

The Arno is 150 miles long and flows through both Florence and Pisa.

How would he know what cafe, at what time?

Obviously suspension of disbelief is needed. I mean, after Bruce craws out of the prison pit, how does he find his way back? He's got nothing on him, etc.

Fox discovers later that the autopilot was fixed, but we never see Batman use it.

We also never see batman escape, but this doesn't mean that he didn't. This is a trick used to make the audience asume the worse. We never see Gandalf's struggles to come back to Middle Earth after he falls into the depths with the fire breathing thingy. (at least not until a future movie).

The bomb kept changing.

It was a nuclear bomb (4 megatons), then a neutron bomb (6 mile blast radius), then an atom bomb. Those are three distinct weapons, not interchangeable names for the same device.

I don't know that Bane is dead.

Still enjoyed it thoroughly though.

I don't think Alfred imagined the scene, because this would make the scene Superflous anyway--and it would make the original fantasy he had seem awkward when spliced in. I think the scene actually happened. Else, it wouldn't have been added.

The dreamy quality of the scene may have been a consession sinse Bale wanted to end his involvement with Batman, but the studio may want to hold on to possible future installments (money talks). Either way, it was ambigous, but I lean towards it being real.

As far as Bane surviving, his primary motivation in protecting whats-her-face is now gone, and I'm not sure he's got an interesting enough back-story to pull off future installments.

Ultimatley, I'd like to see them leave this alone and not continue it--but, that's HIGLY doubtful.

I think people are reading waaaaay too much into the last scene. A series where none of the characters are shown having hallucinations or imaging dream scenarios and the trilogy ends with an Alfred dream sequence? No chance. And why would Nolan have bothered with all the Batwing auto-pilot stuff if he wanted to leave it with Wayne dead?

SUPRMAN said:

duccichucka said:

Selina wearing the pearls or not has no bearing on whether Bruce Wayne is still

alive or dead.

Your chronology of the film is incorrect: Alfred breaks down at Bruce's grave (and

remember, there cannot possibly be a body in that grave because either Bruce's

body was obliterated by the bomb or he's still alive) and then he is overjoyed when

he sees Bruce at the cafe. Speaking of seeing Bruce at the cafe, you still havent

explained why Alfred saw Selina at the cafe. He doesn't know who the fuck Selina

is! And speaking of those logistics you describe: what, you want Nolan to explain

how everything goes down in this movie? It would take 6 hours to do that. It's

a movie, dude! Bruce happens to meet up with Alfred at that cafe because in movies,

anything can happen....like a man surviving a bomb detonation (I don't think this

is the case).

Fox discovering that Bruce fixed the autopilot is a pretty strong indication that

Bruce may have used it before that bomb went off. But just because we don't

see Bruce use it doesn't mean he didn't. We don't see how Bruce returns from

Bane's prison and makes it all the way back to Gotham just in time to save it

from destruction, now do we? And another reason why your argument doesn't

hold: We don't see Bruce blow up while he's in the Batwing, do we? Nope. So

you cannot say for certain that he wasn't in it as well.

As usual, your arguments have holes in them. The only thing you are on point

with is:

We don't know if Bane was killed by that blast. Good point. But this too, has

no bearing on whether Bruce is dead or not. I'ma go see it again at some point.

But you haven't been able to persuade me that Bruce Wayne died in the Batwing

while that bomb went off (neutron, nuclear, atomic...whatever. Being in the

very same proximity a fucking hand grenade goes off, much less a bomb of

any type) means that's your ass.

EDIT: With his visit to the hospital in Aurora, I'm a big fan of Christian Bale.

That made my day. Dude's got class.

[Edited 7/25/12 3:43am]

Oops

I didn't know I was trying to convince you or anyone else of anything.

Just my observations on the movie.

I think he's dead, you don't. Oh well. As you said, it's just a movie.

My chronology is incorrect? I didn't lay out a chronology of the film.

Yeah, but your reasons for thinking he's dead are unfounded; so we're trying to

get you to see where you err in thinking he's dead. You're holding onto your

belief about his death out of spite, it seems. You've offered no good reason to

suggest Bruce Wayne didn't survive the bomb explosion; hell, you wont even

admit that it is possible that Bruce wasn't in the Batwing when it exploded.

- There isn't a body in Bruce Wayne's grave because that would be impossible if

you're right in suggesting he died in the explosion. So the grave scene is not

proof that Bruce died; it's only proof that Alfred, more than likely, had a cere-

monial funeral for Bruce.

- Nolan goes through all that trouble in mentioning the Batwing's autopilot...for

what reason? The autopilot is mentioned 3 times with the final time with Fox

being told that Bruce fixed it. If Nolan wanted us to think Bruce died, he didn't

do a good job with all that autopilot talk. As soon as Fox said that the autopilot

didn't work well, I knew it was going to have a factor in the movie: and I was

right.

- You have yet to explain why Alfred, who saw Selina for 2minutes in the movie,

dreams that he saw her and Bruce together in Italy. Shouldn't have he dreamed

that he saw Bruce with his parents or with Rachel Dawes? Alfred didn't know who

the fuck Selina Kyle was! And she shows up in his dream?.....

- You keep asking for hard proof that Bruce is still alive despite the fact that you

don't have any hard proof that he's dead! You never see Bruce explode while

he's in the Batwing

You're entitled to your opinion but sheesh, that's some opinion you got there!

More than 40 years after the Superman movie, now I can say that, in my opinion, the Dark Knight Rises is the FUCKIN' BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE OF ALL TIME

Superman: The Movie came out 34 years ago.
That's less than 40 years.

Spoiler-FREE area

wow, what a ride, I needed this, I mean it; after two or three crappy years at the movies, Dark Knight Rises has made me feel once again that sweet spark of the great action/adventure movies, a spark I didn't feel since, well, The Dark Knight

I'm also one of those who think that The Dark Knight is the superior motion picture, but Rises is just the better superhero movie: it's bigger, it's cheesier, it's funnier, it's madder, it's meanier, it's longer, it's badder, but in a positive way; it's the epic, exhausting, non-stop fest that was Spider-Man 3/X-Men 3/Matrix Revolutions but with a (nearly) solid script and SOLID performances (unlike those movies)...Or think of "The Avengers meets The Dark Knight" if that makes any sense...

and Batman Begins, no matter how strong that early movie was, is now the "very good but not great" glorified introduction...more like a Bruce Wayne movie than a Batman movie...(nothing wrong about that)

If Batman Begins took the inspiration from Miller's Year One, and Dark Knight from The Long Halloween, Rises clearly follows the themes of '86 Dark Knight Returns (Miller again) and Knightfall/No Man's Land. Who needs Hollywood scripts when you already have classic comic-books waiting to be turn into motion pictures? Nolan has done what Burton or Schumacher didn't want to (fuck'em): being loyal to the DC comics and the fanbase...

------------------------------------

SPOILERS----------------------

1-The early action sequence of Bane hijacking the CIA plane was spectacular and QUICKLY confirmed that the movie wouldn't suck. The voice effect was imposing, deep and dark...

2-Those early 30-35 minutes of talking and more talking didn't bother me cuz the dialogue was strong and the characters interesting (unlike The Matrix Reloaded, for example). And make no mistake, this is a third part of a trilogy, these characters are now like my favorite shoes, I could watch Bruce Wayne talking to Alfred for a couple of hours and I wouldn't get bored, lol I also liked all those references about Harvey Dent and the ending of The Dark Knight, full circle man, lol I like how, in the end, Harvey goes down in history as the criminal he is: a fallen "hero", yes, but also a deranged/disfigured vigilante who crossed the line. Two-Face a good guy? my ass

3-Anne Hathaway looked gorgeous and charismatic and I appreciate how the filmakers have managed to make her look like someone who could actually kick anyone's ass. And the extreme love-hate relationship with Batman/Wayne was the heart of the movie: she's is basically a bitter criminal who would let Batman die to save her ass, and it's kinda disturbing to watch how Batman loves/believes in her regardless. I think I haven't seen this kind of relationship in a mainstream Hollywood movie before, I would need to go to the manga/anime realm to find something this weird/extreme...or think of Wolverine changing sides if necessary, just to save his ass...

4-The first Bane vs Batman fight was brutal but disturbingly beautiful, like a Bruce Lee fight or a Van Damme showdown of the late-80s. A level of graphic violence never seen in a Batman movie before (I kept thinking of the first fight of Clubber Lang vs Rocky in RockyIII). At this point of the movie, it's clear that Nolan had a lot of faith in the Bane character (Nolan's Bane is clearly based on the mutant leader of Dark Knight Returns anyway); during the pre-production years, many fans complained that he should have used The Riddler, The Penguin or other classic/more famous villian. But Bane represents the "modern/hipper/more brutal" villians of the Batman universe (like Venom or Deadpool). This fight is already legendary, Batman just looked like a fragile 42 years old guy being massacred by a smart animal made of hate and muscles, the fight looked like this:

and yes, with the "breaking Batman's back" moment included

5-The "hell on earth" prison scenes were more than adequate and perfect to illustrate the "rebirth" of Batman, and I loved how Nolan toyed with the audience (at least he fooled me), tricking me into thinking that Bane was the child who managed to escape...

6-The scenes of "3 months of chaos & anarchy in Gotham" were typically satured with multiple subplots, rapid fire dialogue and the occasional incoherence (the flaws of Nolan as a filmaker), the least good part of the movie...of course, all is forgiven with Bane's speech, the "death by exile" scene OR that huge Bat-signal made of fire: GOOSEBUMPS MAN! Btw, I had my doubts with the terrorist attack during the football game (the trailer left me cold) but after watching the movie I gotta say it looked horrifying and very well done...

7-Yes, there are many OCCUPY WALL STREET-like scenes, but Nolan doesn't glorify them, on the contrary...But it's undeniable that this movie is a product of the 09-12 era...(that means this movie will be slighty dated in a couple of decades, unlike Burton's Batman or Begins, which are timeless)

8-The third act is where the movie truly SHINES, in my opinion. So many twists (Talia!! ), so many iconic moments, so many emotions. A rollercoaster. The new Batplane looks like a helicopter from Mars, lol, but it got the job done: unlike the other two Nolan movies (perhaps too down to earth), the Batplane offers that "superhero" shine/edge, that tolerable/great cheesiness that this trilogy desperately needed: no more truck chases: MAKE WAY FOR THE BATPLAAAAAAAAAAAAANE, BITCHES!

9-I thought I would hate Joseph Gordon-Levitt and his character but hey, something made me think quickly that this guy could be Robin, and Nolan didn't disappoint (epic final scene A new trilogy with Robin as Nightwing and perhaps with Batgirl as well??? or even a Batman Beyond trilogy? perhaps just a spin-off??? or perhaps nothing, lol? time will tell...but make no mistake, Warners will milk the cow, I hope for the better...

10-I was surprised at the relatively short time on screen of Freeman and Caine, but I guess the script just couldn't take anymore...

11-I loved all the flashbacks and the occasional back & forth narrative, not as radical as a Tarantino movie, but close; personally, I'm tired of "straightforward/omniscient narrator" superhero movies...

12-For a couple of minutes I thought Batman had EFFECTIVELY died (which was both satisfying and insulting), until I remembered the ending of the Dark Knight Returns comic : Wayne fakes his death to live in peace, and Batman as a "symbol" lives on, just waiting for another hero to take over...

13-I also appreciate how (for once) the press has not spoiled the fun with all those rumours and twists (Talia, the real story of Bane, The League of Shadows, the Scarecrow, the "death" of Batman, Robin, the fate of Catwoman, etc). Perhaps the actors/crew had specific orders to reveal as little as possible about the script...

-------------CONCLUSION SPOILER FREE--------

I know Batman isn't the favorite superhero of everybody, but, in my opinion, the Nolan's Batman trilogy is as good as Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings. (Nearly) flawless, epic, focused, committed, satisfying...

[Edited 7/25/12 16:56pm]

Visionnaire said:

Superman: The Movie came out 34 years ago.
That's less than 40 years.

.

[Edited 7/25/12 17:19pm]

duccichucka said:

SUPRMAN said:

I saw The Prestige and felt cheated, especially by the twist.

I thought Alfred was hallucinating because Bruce Wayne was there with Selena Kyle.

The discussion regarding the autopilot? I thought it meant Batman stayed aboard. How he would have gotten away and clear of the blast while not being visible from the city . . . .I don't know.

Why did you think Alfred was hallucinating? He never met Selina Kyle save that one

night she was waitressing in the Wayne Manor at the beginning of the movie. If he

didn't know her well, why hallucinate that she's the woman with Bruce at the end of the

movie, wearing Bruce's mother's pearls? Alfred left the Manor by the time Selina

and Bruce fell in love and had no clue that Selina was the Cat and was actually involved

in the saga. So why is he hallucinating about Selina as opposed to Rachel? Alfred is

hallucinating that Bruce is with a woman he met for two minutes? Hmm.....

When Fox first tells Bruce about the Bat, he mentions that the autopilot needs work.

And then he mentions the Bat's autopilot again later in the film. Clearly Nolan is factoring

in the Bat's autopilot as a contributing feature because at the end, Fox clearly is

dumbfounded (I think he realizes Wayne is still alive) when he is told that the Bat's

autopilot was actually fixed by Bruce Wayne! The only way he could have survived

that detonated bomb is if he initiated the autopilot and was not present during the

bomb's explosion - he was not in the Bat when the bomb exploded. Autopilot was on,

Bruce probably had ejected from it and dipped out so he could leave Gotham in the

hands of Blake and go holler at sexy Selina....mmm.

The five people who knew the identity of Batman: Alfred, Gordon, Fox, Blake and

Selina, all were given clues that Bruce was still alive. Think about when Gordon

astonishingly receives that new bat signal and then feverishly looks about to

see if Bats/Bruce is there. Alfred sees Bruce and Selina together. Fox gets the news

that the autopilot was operational (because of Bruce Wayne). And Blake (ROBIN)

gets the plans/map to the Batcave. Remember, Bruce says to Blake: you wear

a mask to protect the ones you love. So at the end, the ones that Bruce really

and truly love (Blake not so much): Alfred, Fox, Gordon and Selina, all get the message

that he's still alive. Bruce no longer needs a "mask" to protect his loved ones any-

more. Consider that Selina begs Bruce to come with her before he fights with

Bane again. He loved her - why die and not be allowed to finally experience what

requited love is? Remember, he's told by Alfred that Rachel chose Dent over him...

And if you consider that Alfred tells Bruce about his dream at the beginning of the movie -

why would Nolan go through all the trouble in having Alfred relay his dream to Bruce

if he wasn't going to actually use the dream to let us know that Bruce was still alive?

If Alfred never mentions the dream in the beginning, why would Nolan have Alfred

hallucinating about the dream at the end if it wasn't going to suggest Bruce is still alive?

And remember in the first two parts of this franchise: Wayne mentioned a few times that

Batman was a symbol, not a living person. Anyone can assume the mantle of Batman.

Wayne needed to find peace; that he had to let Batman "die" so that Bruce Wayne could

finally live.

None of this actuallly proves anything but only serves to allow me to think that Bruce

Wayne survived the blast.

Exactly, excellent post. Wayne is alive, only two individuals know for certain (Selina, Alfred), the other three suspect (hope) it (Fox, Gordon, Blake)

the ending of Rises is very similar to the epilogue of Miller's Dark Knight Returns...

BTW, to SUPRMAN: BANE DIES, Catwoman clearly blows him in half...

[Edited 7/25/12 17:26pm]

SUPRMAN said:

Alfred, in the beginning only tells him it is a cafe on the Arno River in Italy.

The Arno is 150 miles long and flows through both Florence and Pisa.

How would he know what cafe, at what time?

THAT'S CALLED "WEAK WRITING" OR EVEN "PLOT HOLE". FACE IT: WAYNE IS LEGALLY DEAD (LIKE HE WAS DURING HALF OF "BEGINS" ANYWAY) BUT PHYSICALLY ALIVE, LET HIM ENJOY HIS TIME WITH SELINA DAMMIT

ALSO, ALFRED SAW WAYNE'S (EMPTY) GRAVE, SO WHY DOES HE SEE A HAPPY/ALIVE WAYNE IN ITALY?? BECAUSE HE'S A MELANCHOLIC OLD MAN WITH HALLUCINATIONS? NAH, I DON'T THINK THAT WAS NOLAN'S INTENTION. AND THE NEW BAT-SIGNAL? THE FIXED AUTOPILOT? THE MAP OF THE CAVE GIVEN TO BLAKE? C'MON NOW...

I don't know that Bane is dead.

HMM SELINA ONLY BLOWS HIS HEAD OFF, ONLY. THERE IS EVEN A QUICK SECOND OF GORE (BRAINS). PERHAPS YOU'LL WATCH IT BETTER PAUSING THE DVD/BLU-RAY...YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT

[Edited 7/25/12 17:57pm]

JoeTyler said:

Spoiler-FREE area

wow, what a ride, I needed this, I mean it; after two or three crappy years at the movies, Dark Knight Rises has made me feel once again that sweet spark of the great action/adventure movies, a spark I didn't feel since, well, The Dark Knight

I'm also one of those who think that The Dark Knight is the superior motion picture, but Rises is just the better superhero movie: it's bigger, it's cheesier, it's funnier, it's madder, it's meanier, it's longer, it's badder, but in a positive way; it's the epic, exhausting, non-stop fest that was Spider-Man 3/X-Men 3/Matrix Revolutions but with a (nearly) solid script and SOLID performances (unlike those movies)...Or think of "The Avengers meets The Dark Knight" if that makes any sense...

and Batman Begins, no matter how strong that early movie was, is now the "very good but not great" glorified introduction...more like a Bruce Wayne movie than a Batman movie...(nothing wrong about that)

If Batman Begins took the inspiration from Miller's Year One, and Dark Knight from The Long Halloween, Rises clearly follows the themes of '86 Dark Knight Returns (Miller again) and Knightfall/No Man's Land. Who needs Hollywood scripts when you already have classic comic-books waiting to be turn into motion pictures? Nolan has done what Burton or Schumacher didn't want to (fuck'em): being loyal to the DC comics and the fanbase...

------------------------------------

SPOILERS----------------------

1-The early action sequence of Bane hijacking the CIA plane was spectacular and QUICKLY confirmed that the movie wouldn't suck. The voice effect was imposing, deep and dark...

2-Those early 30-35 minutes of talking and more talking didn't bother me cuz the dialogue was strong and the characters interesting (unlike The Matrix Reloaded, for example). And make no mistake, this is a third part of a trilogy, these characters are now like my favorite shoes, I could watch Bruce Wayne talking to Alfred for a couple of hours and I wouldn't get bored, lol I also liked all those references about Harvey Dent and the ending of The Dark Knight, full circle man, lol I like how, in the end, Harvey goes down in history as the criminal he is: a fallen "hero", yes, but also a deranged/disfigured vigilante who crossed the line. Two-Face a good guy? my ass

3-Anne Hathaway looked gorgeous and charismatic and I appreciate how the filmakers have managed to make her look like someone who could actually kick anyone's ass. And the extreme love-hate relationship with Batman/Wayne was the heart of the movie: she's is basically a bitter criminal who would let Batman die to save her ass, and it's kinda disturbing to watch how Batman loves/believes in her regardless. I think I haven't seen this kind of relationship in a mainstream Hollywood movie before, I would need to go to the manga/anime realm to find something this weird/extreme...or think of Wolverine changing sides if necessary, just to save his ass...

4-The first Bane vs Batman fight was brutal but disturbingly beautiful, like a Bruce Lee fight or a Van Damme showdown of the late-80s. A level of graphic violence never seen in a Batman movie before (I kept thinking of the first fight of Clubber Lang vs Rocky in RockyIII). At this point of the movie, it's clear that Nolan had a lot of faith in the Bane character (Nolan's Bane is clearly based on the mutant leader of Dark Knight Returns anyway); during the pre-production years, many fans complained that he should have used The Riddler, The Penguin or other classic/more famous villian. But Bane represents the "modern/hipper/more brutal" villians of the Batman universe (like Venom or Deadpool). This fight is already legendary, Batman just looked like a fragile 42 years old guy being massacred by a smart animal made of hate and muscles, the fight looked like this:

and yes, with the "breaking Batman's back" moment included

5-The "hell on earth" prison scenes were more than adequate and perfect to illustrate the "rebirth" of Batman, and I loved how Nolan toyed with the audience (at least he fooled me), tricking me into thinking that Bane was the child who managed to escape...

6-The scenes of "3 months of chaos & anarchy in Gotham" were typically satured with multiple subplots, rapid fire dialogue and the occasional incoherence (the flaws of Nolan as a filmaker), the least good part of the movie...of course, all is forgiven with Bane's speech, the "death by exile" scene OR that huge Bat-signal made of fire: GOOSEBUMPS MAN! Btw, I had my doubts with the terrorist attack during the football game (the trailer left me cold) but after watching the movie I gotta say it looked horrifying and very well done...

7-Yes, there are many OCCUPY WALL STREET-like scenes, but Nolan doesn't glorify them, on the contrary...But it's undeniable that this movie is a product of the 09-12 era...(that means this movie will be slighty dated in a couple of decades, unlike Burton's Batman or Begins, which are timeless)

8-The third act is where the movie truly SHINES, in my opinion. So many twists (Talia!! ), so many iconic moments, so many emotions. A rollercoaster. The new Batplane looks like a helicopter from Mars, lol, but it got the job done: unlike the other two Nolan movies (perhaps too down to earth), the Batplane offers that "superhero" shine/edge, that tolerable/great cheesiness that this trilogy desperately needed: no more truck chases: MAKE WAY FOR THE BATPLAAAAAAAAAAAAANE, BITCHES!

9-I thought I would hate Joseph Gordon-Levitt and his character but hey, something made me think quickly that this guy could be Robin, and Nolan didn't disappoint (epic final scene A new trilogy with Robin as Nightwing and perhaps with Batgirl as well??? or even a Batman Beyond trilogy? perhaps just a spin-off??? or perhaps nothing, lol? time will tell...but make no mistake, Warners will milk the cow, I hope for the better...

10-I was surprised at the relatively short time on screen of Freeman and Caine, but I guess the script just couldn't take anymore...

11-I loved all the flashbacks and the occasional back & forth narrative, not as radical as a Tarantino movie, but close; personally, I'm tired of "straightforward/omniscient narrator" superhero movies...

12-For a couple of minutes I thought Batman had EFFECTIVELY died (which was both satisfying and insulting), until I remembered the ending of the Dark Knight Returns comic : Wayne fakes his death to live in peace, and Batman as a "symbol" lives on, just waiting for another hero to take over...

13-I also appreciate how (for once) the press has not spoiled the fun with all those rumours and twists (Talia, the real story of Bane, The League of Shadows, the Scarecrow, the "death" of Batman, Robin, the fate of Catwoman, etc). Perhaps the actors/crew had specific orders to reveal as little as possible about the script...

-------------CONCLUSION SPOILER FREE--------

I know Batman isn't the favorite superhero of everybody, but, in my opinion, the Nolan's Batman trilogy is as good as Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings. (Nearly) flawless, epic, focused, committed, satisfying...

[Edited 7/25/12 16:56pm]

I thought she hit Bane in the chest.

I can live with # 12.

SPOILERS

Alfred made me weep at the end. Everyone I know hated the Hollywood ending they gave it, but honestly the last thing I expected was for this to end with Bruce Wayne alive and well and over being Batman and for Alfred's sake I'm glad that's what happened.

[Edited 7/25/12 21:08pm]

Yep, good ol' Alfred.
In my book (which, by the why, is considered quite an exclusive book in certain circles), he's in the top ten of the best when it comes to household servants.
Others include Benson, Kato, Godfrey, Lurch, Alice, Mr. Belvedere, Rosie the Robot, every dark-skinned person in The Help, and of course, Sir Anthony Hopkins.

Of course Bruce is still alive. The repeated mentions of the autopilot (not in passing, but legitimate discussion) and the scene at the end, I thought, were blatant enough to get the point across. I can't believe we're talking about how many years and what papers are required for Robin to have the Batcave in his possession, etc. Dafuq?

This is a movie about fuckin Batman. Of course Bruce Wayne doesn't die. He's through being Batman! He's sick of it because it has literally taken everything away from him except the fucking house! Which he then gave to the only other man with the stamina and purpose to be a fucking superhero - Robin! AKA Nightwing! AKA his right hand man.

It's implied that some time has passed between the various scenes at the end of the movie. The funeral was an upsetting situation. Alfred didn't KNOW Bruce was still alive. That's the whole fucking point of his monologue! Somehow, somewhere, they would cross paths and he would know, finally, that Bruce had escaped his demons and carried on.

The satisfied and prideful look Alfred gives after recognizing Bruce (and the fact they GREET EACH OTHER in the real scene and do not in the dream) is further evidence that he saw exactly what he had always dreamed - Bruce had finally escaped his demons, passed down the mantle of justice to someone with equal passion and purpose, and found a woman who understands and presumably cares about him. He knew Bruce had a little bit of a fascination with Selina, not that she was Catwoman, which is irrelevant to the event anyway. The point is that Bruce was alive and safe and far away from harm in the location he had SPECIFIED TO BRUCE earlier in the movie and was happy. His wish had come true.

Bruce Wayne survived Gotham.

I would be absolutely stunned if Nolan did a Nightwing trilogy or hell, even

one movie. Who the fuck wants to see a flick about Joe Biden when we

have just seen the conclusion of the best trilogy of all time featuring Barack

Obama?

If he was interested in doing another comic book film, I'd like to see what Nolan

could do with Spawn or Bishop.

duccichucka said:

I would be absolutely stunned if Nolan did a Nightwing trilogy or hell, even

one movie. Who the fuck wants to see a flick about Joe Biden when we

have just seen the conclusion of the best trilogy of all time featuring Barack

Obama?

because the show must go on, even Nolan knew that (the final scene of the film was the ending of a trilogy but probably the beginning of a new one, or at least a spin-off film, or even the manifesto that NEW superhero movies HAVE to be made)

many people said Batman was done after the poor sales of the early-80's comics

many people said Batman was done after the Burton/Keaton years

many people said Batman was done after the dismal Batman & Robin

many people said Begins would be a failure

and now some folks don't get that NOBODY can't stop the goddamn' Batman (comics, movies, whatever) this guy is like James Bond. Period.

Now, I'd HATE a reboot (but something tells me they won't make a reboot, since this trilogy has been perfect), but a sequel trilogy with a new Batman (or Nightwing, whatever) respecting the canon/storyline of the Begins/DarkKnight/Rises years could be epic and satisfying...

[Edited 7/26/12 5:30am]

SUPRMAN said:

I thought she hit Bane in the chest.

hmm, could have been in the chest (I need a second watch) but I def saw some blood/guts (brains?), and the guy flew through the whole hall and when he hit the ground, he certainly looked like a mauled, dead man

[Edited 7/26/12 5:28am]

duccichucka said:

I would be absolutely stunned if Nolan did a Nightwing trilogy or hell, even

one movie. Who the fuck wants to see a flick about Joe Biden when we

have just seen the conclusion of the best trilogy of all time featuring Barack

Obama?

If he was interested in doing another comic book film, I'd like to see what Nolan

could do with Spawn or Bishop.

I´m a huge Batman fan of the mid 1970s Batman ( Neal Adams, The Lazarus Pit, Talia Al Ghul....etc. etc. etc., I guess you know exactly what I mean), and I also love the darker, more brutal Batman stories of the 1990s. I hated the Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher interpretations of Batman, and when it comes to villains I prefer the Joker, Bane and Ras Al Ghul over the Riddler and Penguin any day.

And absolutely enjoyed reading your comments on this thread ! Hats off to you, you really pay attention to details and you know quite a lot about Batman.

I wouldn´t mind if the next Batman movie were about James Blake/Robin/Nightwing becoming the next Batman. I mean, in Nolan´s version of Batman his middle name is Robin and he is no Dick Grayson, and he´s already a grown man but guess what, I actually happen to like that...I like that Nolan is taking his liberties without straying too far away from the comic books.

As far as I´m concerned, James Blake could be the next Batman, without being Robin or Nightwing before becoming the next Dark Knight/Batman....but then again, this would mean a whole new Batman, a Batman without Alfred, a Batman who is NOT Bruce Wayne, and a whole new version all in all, but still using the old name and bat cave.

Though I like that idea, it would be too far away from canon and probably would confuse the casual fans.

I think Nolan and his team (Caine, Bale, Freeman, Oldman) ended the trilogy in the best possible way and I really don´t see them making another Batman movie again, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I´m very happy with the way things are and I loved the ending.

What I didn´t like was the actress who played Talia Al Ghul..... I mean, no offence but....is that Nolan´s idea of what Talia is supposed to look like? Not that that actress is bad looking or anything but she´s absolutely no Talia Al Ghul.

It´s cool that Nolan used the Talia Al Ghul character but real fans know how complicated and special the Bruce/Talia/Selina love triangle is (or was), and I think just using her as a villain who wants to avenge her father is a bit too simple. Nolan could or should have used that love triangle a bit more efficiently, something was missing there.

And again, THAT actress does NOT look like Talia Al Ghul.

When I was a teenager reading Batman comics, I dreamed of women like Talia Al Ghul. That actress who played Talia looked like a librarian or biology teacher. No offence to librarians but that woman is NOT Talia Al Ghul.

[img:$uid]http://api.ning.com/files/YG6JqjG3fNBiDU6Qbtgjq905m1raq8zgzWeiSo7zUFTht4EmfGTEEe8kyfEGpJ-vH9Je*yY91fPzKGGHje5hxgKuJe1TFYPN/Talia1.JPG[/img:$uid]

Don´t get me wrong, the actress did a great job but they could´ve made her look a bit more like Talia, a bit sexier and more femme fatale looking.

[img:$uid]http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/b7/Talia_al_Ghul_0008.jpg[/img:$uid]

THIS HERE is my favorite incarnation of Talia Al Ghul:

[img:$uid]http://yourmomsbasement.com/batmanisawesome/files/2010/01/talia.jpeg[/img:$uid]

MAJOR SPOILERS

KoolEaze said:

What I didn´t like was the actress who played Talia Al Ghul..... I mean, no offence but....is that Nolan´s idea of what Talia is supposed to look like? Not that that actress is bad looking or anything but she´s absolutely no Talia Al Ghul.

It´s cool that Nolan used the Talia Al Ghul character but real fans know how complicated and special the Bruce/Talia/Selina love triangle is (or was), and I think just using her as a villain who wants to avenge her father is a bit too simple. Nolan could or should have used that love triangle a bit more efficiently, something was missing there.

And again, THAT actress does NOT look like Talia Al Ghul.

When I was a teenager reading Batman comics, I dreamed of women like Talia Al Ghul. That actress who played Talia looked like a librarian or biology teacher. No offence to librarians but that woman is NOT Talia Al Ghul.

[img:$uid]http://api.ning.com/files/YG6JqjG3fNBiDU6Qbtgjq905m1raq8zgzWeiSo7zUFTht4EmfGTEEe8kyfEGpJ-vH9Je*yY91fPzKGGHje5hxgKuJe1TFYPN/Talia1.JPG[/img:$uid]

Don´t get me wrong, the actress did a great job but they could´ve made her look a bit more like Talia, a bit sexier and more femme fatale looking.

[img:$uid]http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/b7/Talia_al_Ghul_0008.jpg[/img:$uid]

THIS HERE is my favorite incarnation of Talia Al Ghul:

[img:$uid]http://yourmomsbasement.com/batmanisawesome/files/2010/01/talia.jpeg[/img:$uid]

I was so HAPPY/STUNNED when Miranda revealed herself as Talia (including the rib stabbing moment which made scream like a teenager ) that, frankly, I didn't even think if the actress was adequate or not, but now that you're talking about it, perhaps Cotillard was a bit miscast...but decent enough;Cotillard has this exotic flavour that worked well

and I hate to say it but, the big tits didn't hurt either

[Edited 7/26/12 6:24am]

I'm really disappointed that Bruce Wayne survived. It ruins the ending for me. So suck ass Hollywood.

I would've preferred to see him exit the Bat at some point but going forward it certainly drops my opinion of the movie. Down to 4 out of 5.

On Blu-Ray I'll probably just shut it off after the bomb blast and call it a day.

SUPRMAN said:

I'm really disappointed that Bruce Wayne survived. It ruins the ending for me. So suck ass Hollywood.

I would've preferred to see him exit the Bat at some point but going forward it certainly drops my opinion of the movie. Down to 4 out of 5.

On Blu-Ray I'll probably just shut it off after the bomb blast and call it a day.

It's not Hollywood. It's the comics. Why would you presume they would kill Bruce Wayne or even could? The fans, over 60 years worth, would kill the studio. That would be so much retconning, its not even funny. Why would anyone want to see Bruce die??

It'd be Hollywood for the misunderstood hero to die in a blaze of glory and everyone cries for 6 minutes as an epilogue. But no, he escaped the blast and hit up Europe with his cat burglar (aka criminal) girlfriend.

Spinlight said:

SUPRMAN said:

I'm really disappointed that Bruce Wayne survived. It ruins the ending for me. So suck ass Hollywood.

I would've preferred to see him exit the Bat at some point but going forward it certainly drops my opinion of the movie. Down to 4 out of 5.

On Blu-Ray I'll probably just shut it off after the bomb blast and call it a day.

It's not Hollywood. It's the comics. Why would you presume they would kill Bruce Wayne or even could? The fans, over 60 years worth, would kill the studio. That would be so much retconning, its not even funny. Why would anyone want to see Bruce die??

It'd be Hollywood for the misunderstood hero to die in a blaze of glory and everyone cries for 6 minutes as an epilogue. But no, he escaped the blast and hit up Europe with his cat burglar (aka criminal) girlfriend.

Exactly. Batman cannot die. This is not fuckin' Sin City. This is Gotham City. Batman saves Gotham, Wayne survives it. Period. Even Frank Miller knew that.

SUPRMAN said:

I'm really disappointed that Bruce Wayne survived. It ruins the ending for me. So suck ass Hollywood.

I would've preferred to see him exit the Bat at some point but going forward it certainly drops my opinion of the movie. Down to 4 out of 5.

On Blu-Ray I'll probably just shut it off after the bomb blast and call it a day.

I had this same debate with a friend who had the hump that they didn't kill Bruce Wayne off.

Why do people think that having a sad or depressing ending to a film automatically elevates its artistic merit? And that a happy ending is just "Hollywood"? Happy endings were around long before Hollywood. And lets not forget, its still a comic book movie. Nolan did such a great job turning the series into a believable story that suddenly everyone wants him to make Batman into Citizen Kane. Why would we want that? If I want to which a high-art movie I'll put Kane in the dvd player...this is Batman we're watching and at the end of the day Nolan remembered that and gave the series the ending that was appropriate.

KoolEaze said:

duccichucka said:

I would be absolutely stunned if Nolan did a Nightwing trilogy or hell, even

one movie. Who the fuck wants to see a flick about Joe Biden when we

have just seen the conclusion of the best trilogy of all time featuring Barack

Obama?

If he was interested in doing another comic book film, I'd like to see what Nolan

could do with Spawn or Bishop.

I´m a huge Batman fan of the mid 1970s Batman ( Neal Adams, The Lazarus Pit, Talia Al Ghul....etc. etc. etc., I guess you know exactly what I mean), and I also love the darker, more brutal Batman stories of the 1990s. I hated the Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher interpretations of Batman, and when it comes to villains I prefer the Joker, Bane and Ras Al Ghul over the Riddler and Penguin any day.

And absolutely enjoyed reading your comments on this thread ! Hats off to you, you really pay attention to details and you know quite a lot about Batman.

I wouldn´t mind if the next Batman movie were about James Blake/Robin/Nightwing becoming the next Batman. I mean, in Nolan´s version of Batman his middle name is Robin and he is no Dick Grayson, and he´s already a grown man but guess what, I actually happen to like that...I like that Nolan is taking his liberties without straying too far away from the comic books.

As far as I´m concerned, James Blake could be the next Batman, without being Robin or Nightwing before becoming the next Dark Knight/Batman....but then again, this would mean a whole new Batman, a Batman without Alfred, a Batman who is NOT Bruce Wayne, and a whole new version all in all, but still using the old name and bat cave.

Though I like that idea, it would be too far away from canon and probably would confuse the casual fans.

I think Nolan and his team (Caine, Bale, Freeman, Oldman) ended the trilogy in the best possible way and I really don´t see them making another Batman movie again, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I´m very happy with the way things are and I loved the ending.

What I didn´t like was the actress who played Talia Al Ghul..... I mean, no offence but....is that Nolan´s idea of what Talia is supposed to look like? Not that that actress is bad looking or anything but she´s absolutely no Talia Al Ghul.

It´s cool that Nolan used the Talia Al Ghul character but real fans know how complicated and special the Bruce/Talia/Selina love triangle is (or was), and I think just using her as a villain who wants to avenge her father is a bit too simple. Nolan could or should have used that love triangle a bit more efficiently, something was missing there.

And again, THAT actress does NOT look like Talia Al Ghul.

When I was a teenager reading Batman comics, I dreamed of women like Talia Al Ghul. That actress who played Talia looked like a librarian or biology teacher. No offence to librarians but that woman is NOT Talia Al Ghul.

[img:$uid]http://api.ning.com/files/YG6JqjG3fNBiDU6Qbtgjq905m1raq8zgzWeiSo7zUFTht4EmfGTEEe8kyfEGpJ-vH9Je*yY91fPzKGGHje5hxgKuJe1TFYPN/Talia1.JPG[/img:$uid]

Don´t get me wrong, the actress did a great job but they could´ve made her look a bit more like Talia, a bit sexier and more femme fatale looking.

[img:$uid]http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/b7/Talia_al_Ghul_0008.jpg[/img:$uid]

THIS HERE is my favorite incarnation of Talia Al Ghul:

[img:$uid]http://yourmomsbasement.com/batmanisawesome/files/2010/01/talia.jpeg[/img:$uid]

Heath Ledger as the Joker looked nothing like the Joker as drawn or imagined by anyone else, and that worked. I don't think Nolan was going for look-alikes (Bane should have been alot taller), rather he was going for solid actors, which was most of the reason his series was so good IMO.....

Saw it, loved it. Despite some things, but I'm being nitpicky just because I like Nolan's Batman movies so much. I wouldn't be if they weren't so good all in all.

I thought about 3/4 of the movie was just perfect. I loved how slow it was and much time they took for the story to develop, I LOVED every scene between Alfred and Bruce (awesome), I loved the brutal fights between them, the prison in India or where ever... But the end got too... Hollywod for me, too conventional. I mean, chasing a bomb in a truck through Gotham? Hmm. Actually, I also could have done without Talia, because unexpected twists are just too expected these days.

Oh, and you HAVE to cut when Alfred nods in the café WITHOUT showing him. That way you know what's up but it's more fitting stylistically to him wanting to vanish. I was thinking during the scene, "no, NO, please cut, PLEASE CUT!"

But in the end: Nolan for those three movies.

JoeTyler said:

MAJOR SPOILERS

KoolEaze said:

What I didn´t like was the actress who played Talia Al Ghul..... I mean, no offence but....is that Nolan´s idea of what Talia is supposed to look like? Not that that actress is bad looking or anything but she´s absolutely no Talia Al Ghul.

It´s cool that Nolan used the Talia Al Ghul character but real fans know how complicated and special the Bruce/Talia/Selina love triangle is (or was), and I think just using her as a villain who wants to avenge her father is a bit too simple. Nolan could or should have used that love triangle a bit more efficiently, something was missing there.

And again, THAT actress does NOT look like Talia Al Ghul.

When I was a teenager reading Batman comics, I dreamed of women like Talia Al Ghul. That actress who played Talia looked like a librarian or biology teacher. No offence to librarians but that woman is NOT Talia Al Ghul.

[img:$uid]http://api.ning.com/files/YG6JqjG3fNBiDU6Qbtgjq905m1raq8zgzWeiSo7zUFTht4EmfGTEEe8kyfEGpJ-vH9Je*yY91fPzKGGHje5hxgKuJe1TFYPN/Talia1.JPG[/img:$uid]

Don´t get me wrong, the actress did a great job but they could´ve made her look a bit more like Talia, a bit sexier and more femme fatale looking.

[img:$uid]http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/b/b7/Talia_al_Ghul_0008.jpg[/img:$uid]

THIS HERE is my favorite incarnation of Talia Al Ghul:

[img:$uid]http://yourmomsbasement.com/batmanisawesome/files/2010/01/talia.jpeg[/img:$uid]

I was so HAPPY/STUNNED when Miranda revealed herself as Talia (including the rib stabbing moment which made scream like a teenager ) that, frankly, I didn't even think if the actress was adequate or not, but now that you're talking about it, perhaps Cotillard was a bit miscast...but decent enough;Cotillard has this exotic flavour that worked well

and I hate to say it but, the big tits didn't hurt either

[Edited 7/26/12 6:24am]

She looks much more like Talia in the pic you posted than she did in the film.

Like DaveT posted, it´s not about the looks, I get that....and he´s right , Heath Ledger didn´t look exactly like the Joker in the comics but it´s not just the looks that I had a problem with, it was the whole aura. That woman was not necessarily doing a bad job but, I don´t know, for some reason, that Talia Al Ghul aura was missing.

Then again, it would´ve been impossible to compress the whole Talia/Ras/Bruce/Selina storyline into one movie anyway.

DaveT said:

SUPRMAN said:

I'm really disappointed that Bruce Wayne survived. It ruins the ending for me. So suck ass Hollywood.

I would've preferred to see him exit the Bat at some point but going forward it certainly drops my opinion of the movie. Down to 4 out of 5.

On Blu-Ray I'll probably just shut it off after the bomb blast and call it a day.

I had this same debate with a friend who had the hump that they didn't kill Bruce Wayne off.

Why do people think that having a sad or depressing ending to a film automatically elevates its artistic merit? And that a happy ending is just "Hollywood"? Happy endings were around long before Hollywood. And lets not forget, its still a comic book movie. Nolan did such a great job turning the series into a believable story that suddenly everyone wants him to make Batman into Citizen Kane. Why would we want that? If I want to which a high-art movie I'll put Kane in the dvd player...this is Batman we're watching and at the end of the day Nolan remembered that and gave the series the ending that was appropriate.

I'm not asking for it to be Citizen Kane. Happy endings aren't always "Hollywood," but I felt this was.

I just don't like the result, especially where a human being (Bruce Wayne) is elevated to being so sacred they can't die. Yeah, I know he's fictional, but a fictional human being.

JoeTyler said:

Spinlight said:

It's not Hollywood. It's the comics. Why would you presume they would kill Bruce Wayne or even could? The fans, over 60 years worth, would kill the studio. That would be so much retconning, its not even funny. Why would anyone want to see Bruce die??

It'd be Hollywood for the misunderstood hero to die in a blaze of glory and everyone cries for 6 minutes as an epilogue. But no, he escaped the blast and hit up Europe with his cat burglar (aka criminal) girlfriend.

Exactly. Batman cannot die. This is not fuckin' Sin City. This is Gotham City. Batman saves Gotham, Wayne survives it. Period. Even Frank Miller knew that.

Batman is a man, why can't he die?

It's silly to elevate him to some god status.