I confess I keep a look out in case one day they need an art director

It's just around the corner from here and I read an article once in the newspaper weekend supplement about how well they pay and how good the working conditions are - my family would be set. BUT they are responsible for a LOT of shit, like this:

So say one day if I could choose to take a job there or not, would I?

[Edited 7/12/12 4:45am]

I wouldn't.

The company I work for is not saintly by any means, but if I couldn't feel good about their overall practices I wouldn't work where I do.

I contemplated quitting over some political contributions made a few years back. The contributions were made to a political action group who was pushing certain business practice legislation but that group was supporting a candidate for governor who was vociferously anti-gay. I mean, this was an evil man. My company apologized when the backlash hit (though I didn't find the apology sufficient) and have since worked hard to make up for it. I felt pretty disillusioned for a long time. I'm back to not hating the people I work for but it's been a long road and I think they still have work to do.

I hear ya

Back in the 90s I worked for the city council.

I got upset with the way we spent tax payer's money on making business plans for various departments look "pretty". I'm talking about spending a WEEK on the layout of something they printed out 20 copies of. And that's NOTHING!

ZombieKitten said:

I hear ya

Back in the 90s I worked for the city council.

I got upset with the way we spent tax payer's money on making business plans for various departments look "pretty". I'm talking about spending a WEEK on the layout of something they printed out 20 copies of. And that's NOTHING!

Yikes! That's pretty crazy.

I will say, though, I'm coming at this from a place of privilege. Even in these troubled times I could probably find another job fairly quickly and I've got enough socked away in savings that I'd be OK until I did, or even if it took me longer than I anticipated.

If I were desperate and had kids to feed and that was the only prospect I might change my tune. Take it to get going and continue to look for something else.

CarrieMpls said:

ZombieKitten said:

I hear ya

Back in the 90s I worked for the city council.

I got upset with the way we spent tax payer's money on making business plans for various departments look "pretty". I'm talking about spending a WEEK on the layout of something they printed out 20 copies of. And that's NOTHING!

Yikes! That's pretty crazy.

I will say, though, I'm coming at this from a place of privilege. Even in these troubled times I could probably find another job fairly quickly and I've got enough socked away in savings that I'd be OK until I did, or even if it took me longer than I anticipated.

If I were desperate and had kids to feed and that was the only prospect I might change my tune. Take it to get going and continue to look for something else.

If I was in that position I wouldn't even be concerned about anything other than food on my table too.

But we are OK, no debt (and conversely no savings) I'm working from home on projects I find ethical and valuable, like early literacy and reading recovery products for schools, and small handbooks for small business owners that can save them $$$$$. For now that's keeping us afloat.

I probably wouldn't have an issue with it.

The company I work for is mostly apolitical. (They've gone in for the whole "green" thing in a way I don't particularly care for - but since nobody forces me to participate, I can overlook it.)

But I worked in politics for a loooooong time - doing communications for people with whom I did not agree on every issue. I figured it wasn't my job to agree or disagree with them. It was my job to write speeches and press releases and op-eds, talking about their legislation and positions.

I figure (as I always have) that people have a right to their opinions. I don't know a single person in the entire world with whom I agree on absolutely everything. My opinion on that would probably change, however, if an employer (or other entity - unions, I'm looking at you) was actively taking money from me to spend on advocacy of issues with which I did not agree.

As for that little kid in the picture, Philip Morris didn't put that cigarette in his hands. His parents - or some other adult - did. What happens to him as a result is their responsibility. Just as what happens to any smoker is on them. Last I checked, smoking was not compulsory anywhere in the world. I don't believe it is the duty of any government or corporation to protect people from their bad choices.

Genesia said:

ZombieKitten said:

Genesia said:

I probably wouldn't have an issue with it.

The company I work for is mostly apolitical. (They've gone in for the whole "green" thing in a way I don't particularly care for - but since nobody forces me to participate, I can overlook it.)

But I worked in politics for a loooooong time - doing communications for people with whom I did not agree on every issue. I figured it wasn't my job to agree or disagree with them. It was my job to write speeches and press releases and op-eds, talking about their legislation and positions.

I figure (as I always have) that people have a right to their opinions. I don't know a single person in the entire world with whom I agree on absolutely everything. My opinion on that would probably change, however, if an employer (or other entity - unions, I'm looking at you) was actively taking money from me to spend on advocacy of issues with which I did not agree.

As for that little kid in the picture, Philip Morris didn't put that cigarette in his hands. His parents - or some other adult - did. What happens to him as a result is their responsibility. Just as what happens to any smoker is on them. Last I checked, smoking was not compulsory anywhere in the world. I don't believe it is the duty of any government or corporation to protect people from their bad choices.

Philip Morris spends a LOT of money on advertising in the countries (like Indonesia) where it still is legal to advertise. Sure it's up to the parent or caregiver and if they are ignorant to the consequences, is nobody is to blame then? I see it as taking advantage of an uneducated market segment. People taking up smoking at a young age is profitable in the long run. Our government here does seem to take some interest in educating folks on what will kill you - whether we want that or not. We aren't as extreme as a "parent state" like Sweden (where alcohol is sold at government owned outlets so people won't drink themselves to death). I don't know how you have it in USA? You have warnings on your cigarette packs, right? And taxes to make them almost unaffordable? Of maybe not. I know in Asia cigarettes are dirt cheap so it's way easier to support your habit.

Are there really people in the world who don't know that smoking is a potentially hazardous activity? I don't believe in the "too stupid to know better" argument. It's a slippery slope that is used for all kinds of nanny state initiatives - like any government knows better than an individualhow their life should be run.

[Edited 7/12/12 7:27am]

Absolutely not. I do not want "He was a murderer" on MY tombstone.

In response to the original question, I don't think so. I would have to be beyond desperate to even apply for a job at a company like that. I once worked in the financial aid office at a proprietary art school where I had to try to tell kids from poor families that if they got a degree from that school they'd have no problem paying back thousands of dollars of student loans. It was awful. That's one reason I prefer working for nonprofits, at least you can feel good about the mission of the organization even if the managment is full of people you don't particularly care for.

Genesia said:

Are there really people in the world who don't know that smoking is a potentially hazardous activity? I don't believe in the "too stupid to know better" argument. It's a slippery slope that is used for all kinds of nanny state initiatives - like any government knows better than an individualhow their life should be run.

[Edited 7/12/12 7:27am]

Do not underestimate the stupidity of the general population! The older I get, the more convinced I am that there are a lot of people who are even more stupid than I could have imagined.

Tobacco companies are a tough one. I know what you mean about getting in bed with the devil, though - I'm looking at Investment Banking right now.

jone70 said:

In response to the original question, I don't think so. I would have to be beyond desperate to even apply for a job at a company like that. I once worked in the financial aid office at a proprietary art school where I had to try to tell kids from poor families that if they got a degree from that school they'd have no problem paying back thousands of dollars of student loans. It was awful. That's one reason I prefer working for nonprofits, at least you can feel good about the mission of the organization even if the managment is full of people you don't particularly care for.

Genesia said:

Are there really people in the world who don't know that smoking is a potentially hazardous activity? I don't believe in the "too stupid to know better" argument. It's a slippery slope that is used for all kinds of nanny state initiatives - like any government knows better than an individualhow their life should be run.

[Edited 7/12/12 7:27am]

Do not underestimate the stupidity of the general population! The older I get, the more convinced I am that there are a lot of people who are even more stupid than I could have imagined.

What Genesia is saying is "F everyone else but me".

RodeoSchro said:

jone70 said:

In response to the original question, I don't think so. I would have to be beyond desperate to even apply for a job at a company like that. I once worked in the financial aid office at a proprietary art school where I had to try to tell kids from poor families that if they got a degree from that school they'd have no problem paying back thousands of dollars of student loans. It was awful. That's one reason I prefer working for nonprofits, at least you can feel good about the mission of the organization even if the managment is full of people you don't particularly care for.

Do not underestimate the stupidity of the general population! The older I get, the more convinced I am that there are a lot of people who are even more stupid than I could have imagined.

What Genesia is saying is "F everyone else but me".

That is not what I'm saying.

What is your problem, anyway? Your main function here seems to be to take potshots at me. Is this Christian behavior? Disagree with what someone and go straight to the ad hominem attack?

Or maybe you're just a jerk. Yeah - I'll go with the latter.

[Edited 7/12/12 8:20am]

Depends on how many zero's are on the paystub.

If they paid big money, hell yeah. And as a bonus, they should give me my cigarettes for free.

Genesia said:

RodeoSchro said:

What Genesia is saying is "F everyone else but me".

That is not what I'm saying.

What is your problem, anyway? Your main function here seems to be to take potshots at me. Is this Christian behavior? Disagree with what someone and go straight to the ad hominem attack?

Or maybe you're just a jerk. Yeah - I'll go with the latter.

[Edited 7/12/12 8:20am]

The War on Christianity continues!

if the pay and benefits are right

WHY WOULDN'T I,

hell...

if they paid me for hazardous duty

i'd be a pitch man for they ass....

i wouldn't smoke for them.

again,

they keep putin these pics out there

but the truth is, who ever is takin the pic

should be treated the same as a child pornographer

and those who are givin cigarettes to these

babies should be held accountable for attempted

homicide on a child.... BUT if they in a country where

they don't value the life of a child, FUCK 'EM

tobaco co.s been and will be, just like heroin

and cocaine and alcohol...

find pics of all the lil babies that are bein fed

alcohol and then talk about the companies that sell alcohol

talk about the govmnt. that sell dope to make money for guns

to put in the ghettos (U.S.A.)

no?

then again,

put the blame where it belongs.

ON THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GIVIN THIS SHIT TO THE KID

AND THE ONES THAT ARE SAYIN " c'mon, give the kid a smoke

so i can get this pic"

didn't think about that, huh?

it's like wild kingdom when they tranq

and animal so the beast can catch 'em.

it looks good for the show, but whut right

did they have to choose who dies???

plus the lil fat kid could stand to loose a pound or two....

WHUT???

like you didn't think it too

oh...I am just not sure.

I have not smoked in years, and just last night I sat next to an ashtray with a half smoked butt in it, and I thought "I should smoke that!" It's not their fauld that I got hooked, it's mine. But still, why would I support something I don't approve of?

Of course, if they paid enough it might be tough to turn down. Maybe for a couple years...I could make the logic that it's no different from working for McDonalds or Budweiser or an internet/TV company. Vices are all about how we abuse them. Are the vices evil in and of themselves?

KingBAD said:

plus the lil fat kid could stand to loose a pound or two....

the smoking shoud definitely help that!

KingBAD took the words right out of my mouth.

NDRU said:

oh...I am just not sure.

I have not smoked in years, and just last night I sat next to an ashtray with a half smoked butt in it, and I thought "I should smoke that!" It's not their fauld that I got hooked, it's mine. But still, why would I support something I don't approve of?

Of course, if they paid enough it might be tough to turn down. Maybe for a couple years...I could make the logic that it's no different from working for McDonalds or Budweiser or an internet/TV company. Vices are all about how we abuse them. Are the vices evil in and of themselves?

Cigarettes are the only product that, when used exactly to the manufacturer's specifications, will kill you.

RodeoSchro said:

NDRU said:

oh...I am just not sure.

I have not smoked in years, and just last night I sat next to an ashtray with a half smoked butt in it, and I thought "I should smoke that!" It's not their fauld that I got hooked, it's mine. But still, why would I support something I don't approve of?

Of course, if they paid enough it might be tough to turn down. Maybe for a couple years...I could make the logic that it's no different from working for McDonalds or Budweiser or an internet/TV company. Vices are all about how we abuse them. Are the vices evil in and of themselves?

Cigarettes are the only product that, when used exactly to the manufacturer's specifications, will kill you.

They don't tell you how much to smoke. If you had one per day it would not kill you.

Whiskey will kill you in a single night if you drink too much.

i think i'd apply elsewhere before i'd work for PM. i don't know. it's the sort of thing i'd have to be there and live that in order to know what i'd do, honestly.

Genesia said:

NDRU said:

RodeoSchro said:

Cigarettes are the only product that, when used exactly to the manufacturer's specifications, will kill you.

They don't tell you how much to smoke. If you had one per day it would not kill you.

Whiskey will kill you in a single night if you drink too much.

Tell that to the millions that are addicted, and will die every year because of their addiction.

Tell that to the tens of thousands that will die every year due to the effects of second-hand smoke.

Is there any other currently-legal substance or product in America that, if it was introduced as a new product today, would certainly NOT be legalized?

If cigarettes were invented today, and we knew even only HALF the stuff about its effects that we actually know today, and they presented to the FDA for approval for sale to consumers, do you think there is even one chance in a million they'd be approved?

RodeoSchro said:

NDRU said:

They don't tell you how much to smoke. If you had one per day it would not kill you.

Whiskey will kill you in a single night if you drink too much.

Tell that to the millions that are addicted, and will die every year because of their addiction.

Tell that to the tens of thousands that will die every year due to the effects of second-hand smoke.

Is there any other currently-legal substance or product in America that, if it was introduced as a new product today, would certainly NOT be legalized?

If cigarettes were invented today, and we knew even only HALF the stuff about its effects that we actually know today, and they presented to the FDA for approval for sale to consumers, do you think there is even one chance in a million they'd be approved?

I didn't say I thought they were good!

NDRU said:

RodeoSchro said:

Tell that to the millions that are addicted, and will die every year because of their addiction.

Tell that to the tens of thousands that will die every year due to the effects of second-hand smoke.

Is there any other currently-legal substance or product in America that, if it was introduced as a new product today, would certainly NOT be legalized?

If cigarettes were invented today, and we knew even only HALF the stuff about its effects that we actually know today, and they presented to the FDA for approval for sale to consumers, do you think there is even one chance in a million they'd be approved?

I didn't say I thought they were good!

Cool!

I suspect this thread is less about Philip Morris and smoking, and more generally about taking a well compensated position in a company, the values of which are at odds with your own. I'd like to think I wouldn't do such a thing, but I can't be holier that thou: If I were desperately trying to feed my family, who knows what I might consider?

Short of that crisis, though, I can honestly say I would likely pass -- and have passed -- on very attractive positions with potential employers I thought to be douche-y on certain social positions.

[Edited 7/12/12 19:31pm]

Lammastide said:

I suspect this thread is less about Philip Morris and smoking, and more generally about taking a well compensated position in a company, the values of which are at odds with your own. I'd like to think I wouldn't do such a thing, but I can't be holier that thou: If I were desperately trying to feed my family, who knows what I might consider?

Short of that crisis, though, I can honestly say I would likely pass -- and have passed -- on very attractive positions with potential employers I thought to be douche-y on certain social positions.

exactly, I quit my job after 10 months of fighting inside my head about what a fucking waste of time and money my job was!