giotto said:

[This message was edited Mon Feb 24 11:22:37 PST 2003 by Natsume]

Yes, we are indeed capable of "perfection"--perfection is not an absence of "pain" or "hurt"...perfection is the absence of mistakes...we are able to achieve everything which we desire our lives to be, including the experience of giving/sharing love...when we use the excuse that, as humans, we're incapable of "perfection", we merely rationalize away and absolve ourselves from any responsibility to do so...fear of the reality of total success is more powerful than fear of the possibility of failure...

Perfection only exists in mathematics... everything else is only opinion.

IceNine said:

Not if you take the definition of perfection to be "the absence of mistakes"...a spoon can be the "perfect" design, simply because there are no mistakes within it...

You mean Perfect Match. Soulmate? Do we seek out the same or do we seek out what we do lack?

wellbeyond said:

I understand what you mean by "absence of mistakes", but then we'd have to define "mistakes". To even try and apply this type of measurement when involving human emotion and nature is impossible and ridiculous.

wellbeyond said:

"Perfection" in an object such as a spoon is somewhat different than "perfection" in an abstract concept such as love, but I would propose that not even the spoon could be perfect unless the plans for the spoon included a tolerance for deviation from the blueprints, as they will be drawn with a mathematical precision that cannot be matched by machines that create products.

In effect, a perfect circle exists in mathematics, but not in the physical world.

INSATIABLE said:

I think you're walking down the wrong path, tho...mistakes are simply something you didn't intend to do...you, yourself, have complete control over that...just make sure everything you do or say within a loving relationship is what you truly wanted to do or say...and as far as being capable of "perfect love", why izzit that we always assume that the ONLY way we can love someone is if they are loving US in return, and in the exact way we desire to be loved??...



for example, typing "mistakes is" instead of "mistakes are" was a mistake...heh
[This message was edited Mon Feb 24 11:38:45 PST 2003 by wellbeyond]

On this earth, I sometimes think that only babies are capable of loving anyone "perfectly". Perfect love is a fanciful notion that only ONE perfect being was capable of.

Tina (~!~)

wellbeyond said:

I'd be a liar if I said I didn't use the term "perfect" when talking about physical and emotional things.

But in the end, it might just all come to whether or not you believe in the word. Just like God or the toothfairy. I don't believe in it when it's used for topics like love. Love can never be perfect. Not to say it can't be damn good.

INSATIABLE said

But in the end, it might just all come to whether or not you believe in the word. Just like God or the toothfairy. I don't believe in it when it's used for topics like love. Love can never be perfect. Not to say it can't be damn good. [/quote]


Darn straight!!

Tina (~!~)

INSATIABLE said:

The only reason we don't give "perfect" love is because we don't want to...but we are capable of doing so, should we truly want to...I think we might be focusing on the love we recieve when we talk of whether or not "perfect love" exists, not the love we give...the only thing keeping any of us from giving and showing empathy, compassion, concern, warmth, support, care, loyalty, reliability and trust is ourselves...no one else and nothing else in existence is keeping us from doing so...so if we're not giving that to one another, then it's only because we don't want to...

wellbeyond said:

I believe that humanity desires perfect love!

As Nettie stated above a child is perfect love, it is what happens in our lives that molds our ability to give, or receive perfect love..

sag10 said:

Actually, it's what happens in our minds that molds our ability to give perfect love...and even further, I don't think a child gives "perfect love", at least not the "perfect" type of love that's being discussed here...a child can be needy, selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed within the love they give, depending upon their age, even if it's nothing more than a cry that says "Feed me NOW!...Hold me NOW!..."...A dog probably comes closest...lol

wellbeyond said:

I totally respect that opinion. But if you really want to define someone expressing perfect love, I could still find imperfections. They've got to be few and far between, but I'm sure these people just might exist.

I'd never hold my breath for him to come along though.

wellbeyond said:

Actually, that sounds like perfect love to me...

Having had a pet for the first time (10years) I would have to agree that nobody loved like she did...Unconditionally.

INSATIABLE said:

Is that a reflection of the love they give, or a reflection of your ability to recieve it??...lol

INSATIABLE said:

But that's the thing, tho...we're talking about the ability to give "perfect" love, not recieve it...so instead of waiting for "whoever" to show up and give it to us, it should be that we're working on ourselves to be able to give it to whomever we desire...

sag10 said:

wellbeyond said:

I've been there. Several times. I'm loyal and I stick with things to a fault. If it wasn't for my three last relationships, I'd be almost 20 grand richer, have less wrinkles, and other personal differences that I'd rather not share and you wouldn't want to know about anyway. I've seen the worst, and I've had decent relationships as well. To be a "perfect" giver is like being a lamb placed in a pack of wolves. You get taken advantage of. It's not worth it to me anymore. Which of course is my personal choice.

I'm a damn good girlfriend. I love videogames and shooting hoops, too.

Question should be are humans capable of being humane.

It is individually specific...If one can exude "Love" unconditionally to all that come into their lives...from the close and intimate family members...to the homeless, friend and strangers alike...to even those that you know "don't" like you. Then yes...you can achieve Perfect Love. Are you strong enough to deprogram yourself to get there?

You are all GODS and if you start to act God-like...it can happen!

DexMSR said:

Well said my brotha!

no, perfect love doesn't exist...we can believe the person we are with is 'perfect for us', but don't fool yourself...unless both parties are perfect the concept cannot be realized. and well...who's perfect!!!

perfect love? not exactly. real love that lasts forever? certainly, yes we are capable of that.

but i think it sometimes takes a slap in the face before you realise just how real it is, or isn't. "love it isn't love until it's had" goes the Prince lyric (Sometimes it Snows in April). For example: My girlfriend and I were together for 3 years and then broke up...she went with someone else and soon realised she needed me back in her life (and i needed her in mine), so we got back together after 6 months apart. it was terrible that she had been with another guy and she really regrets that now, but in some ways we needed to cool it off and gets some perspective...now we've been together for almost 6 years...and we've been friends for over 8. we both know it's the real thing and it certainly feels perfect to us...but obviously as human beings that isn't technically possible...however, love isn't really about the technicalities...that's a product of the rest of the world, not two people in love with each other...so if you're lucky enough to find it, it sure can feel like it's perfect.

.
[This message was edited Mon Feb 24 15:19:42 PST 2003 by mrdespues]

I'm interested to know what you guys think of ancient philosophies of love. I started with definitions/discussion on this thread: http://www.prince.org/msg...&tid=35512

I'm always very careful when using the word 'perfect' in conjunction with any human. Just the word itself sets up expectations that we as flawed beings may never be able to attain and that in itself causes suffering.
There is nothing 'perfect' about being human. We can try to do our best and that, in my opinion, is enough. The best can never be perfect and it doesn't need to be.
IMO, the most loving thing someone can do for another human is love his/her faults as well as his/her attributes.

perfect love with my hand