PurpleJedi said:

Dave1992 said:

Probably, yes. It means that everything that happens and every probablility can be calculated, theoretically.

Of course, you could always replace "past experience, momentary preference, subconscious action, a slight pain in your left ankle etc" with "God, a higher being, the universe talking to you" for the sake of argument, as a reason for your turning left. I just think it's irrelevant, because the choice you make can be calculated and in the end it is all based on science.

Just an aside: science and God (belief) can go hand in hand too; one would only have to explain why people belief and why it makes sense to believe. Those who do would however have to realise that what they believe in doesn't exist like other things exist, but exists because they believe in it. As in: God is not real, but believing makes sense. Or: I don't know, but I believe, which makes me a better person etc.

Your "scientific" reasoning of the concept of God is interesting.

It's my way of and reason for believing in God without harming other people and telling them their ways are wrong and mine are better. To me, God is a concept meant to connect people, as they believe and trust in something they cannot see. The picture and the (to me) reasonable meaning got very distorted through church (a profit-oriented organisation) and religion (mostly groups of people who claim to know, not to believe).

Do you believe in Destiny? Yes

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yes, I believe all that shit happens for a reason

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? Yes and that more and more gives me the feeling that all our efforts don't count that much at the end of the day. What we are trying to achieve might be something that will not make us happy in the long run.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

CarrieMpls said:

Why can’t you be smart and happy, though?

Why does not believing in something have to equal sad or depressing?

What if better things aren’t in store for you? Whether or not there’s a higher power orchestrating your future you have no control over the matter anyway, right? So it’s up to you to make the happiness you seek. It’s all your choice.

Sure, life can be a violent struggle full of pain and misery till the day you die. That’s why all the little things that aren’t pain and misery are so freaking fantastic.

It's a rather simplistic way of me stating something more complicated I guess (the smart/sad bit).

Do you remember the thread? It wasn't about IQ...and it wasn't about God...it was more about people who are fully aware of their situation and the misery that circumstances may bring as being more "unhappy" than people who will more likely ignore the facts and walk around with a smile on their face.

I only mentioned it here because it resonates with Punkmistress's post.

You see...I personally recognize that we all make decisions (part of the reason for THIS thread) and have always had a mindset that we must accept the consequences of any & all of our actions...the good and the bad. Much soul-searching ensues, with the typical emotional accompaniments; anxiety, regret, remorse, anger, nostalgia, and all those other finer points of basic sadness. Because quite frankly, it's all on our shoulders. Every ounce of it.

I would very much like to make it all go away, banish those thoughts by whatever means (as I mentioned before).

The little things have always helped me get by...up to a year ago I walked around with a smile on my face most of the time. I do appreciate the little things. It's the big, bad things that make my hair fall out in clumps.

But then again maybe I'm just low in Vitamin D again and rambling nonsense.

BklynBabe said:

I put that bitch on Call Block!

Dave1992 said:

PurpleJedi said:

Your "scientific" reasoning of the concept of God is interesting.

It's my way of and reason for believing in God without harming other people and telling them their ways are wrong and mine are better. To me, God is a concept meant to connect people, as they believe and trust in something they cannot see. The picture and the (to me) reasonable meaning got very distorted through church (a profit-oriented organisation) and religion (mostly groups of people who claim to know, not to believe).

Don't want to derail my own thread...but you realize that you don't really believe in "God" right? It's like saying "I believe in the concept of the moon being made of cheese" while knowing full well it's a rock.

Serious said:

Do you believe in Destiny? Yes

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yes, I believe all that shit happens for a reason

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? Yes and that more and more gives me the feeling that all our efforts don't count that much at the end of the day. What we are trying to achieve might be something that will not make us happy in the long run.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

Martina - how do you maintain that belief?

i feel and believe our lives are about 90% free will and 10% destiny.

like:

if

it

is

to

be

it

is

up

to

me.

free2bfreeda said:

i feel and believe our lives are about 90% free will and 10% destiny.

like:

if

it

is

to

be

it

is

up

to

me.

I get that.

free2bfreeda said:

i feel and believe our lives are about 90% free will and 10% destiny.

like:

if

it

is

to

be

it

is

up

to

me.

IMO it's the other way round. 90% destiny and 10% free will. And the worst part is that when we make decisions we have usually no idea in what way they will really affect our lives.

PurpleJedi said:

PunkMistress said:

I used to.

I stopped, and I'm a lot less happy now than when I was cultivating a relationship with unseen powers of compassion and limitless love.

I can relate to that.

Seems I was "at peace" more when I was the good little Catholic boy. When I prayed each night and had my one-on-one with the Almighty.

Right now a cousin of mine is doing her darnest to try to get me to go to her Christian church. I politely excuse myself each time because I don't trust myself to fall for the comfort & "warm-fuzzy-feeling" that such an environment can offer me in this state of mind.

I want SO MUCH to believe that there's a "higher purpose" for all this bullshit. That there is a "greater plan" for me. That "better things are in store" for my future.

So much so that I can see myself falling for whatever church/group/cult offers me enough fluff to clog up this empty hole in my chest.

But in the end, fluff is fluff, no matter how sweet it may be.

Anyone remember my old thread; "Would you rather be dumb and happy or smart and sad?"

I often wish I could be dumbed-down and find that happiness...by any means.

Then I do a mental and suck it up, bug a friend or two with crap, and post nonsense on the Org.

I believe there is a plan for all of us. But not everybody will have a happy life sadly. I very much hope you will find peace of mind and happiness again in your life Ren and I think you will !

I understand what you mean about the little catholic boy . For me when my aunt who I was very close to and and my dad died it was when I lost my trust in God somehow that he will always be there for me and make things right and I never regained it later in my life. I still beleive in God, but I lost that catholic trust in God I used to have when I was little.

And yes I remember that thread too and I so want to be dumb and happy .

PurpleJedi said:

Do you believe in Destiny? I only believe in destiny if it's in my favor If my destiny calls for my house getting blown up then no i don't believe in destiny

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yeah, as long as I'm benefiting from it.

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? YES, i think god planned to have this awesome kick ass universe where everything is wonderfully creative but destiny messed up a couple of his universes, solar systems and planets so he had to Wiki a couple of blackholes and space debris to get rid of his mistakes. He's making it seem like he has 10 pages of work but it's really 9.1. All that dark matter is just extra spacing, margin changes, and 14.4 font.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

I dont know but hope it's not all chance.

PurpleJedi said:

Serious said:

Martina - how do you maintain that belief?

I ask myself the same . I only started to believe that in the last years to be honest when a lot of things happened in my life that I don't believe happened by accident.

But sadly that believe doesn't stop me from being very unhappy for already 4 1/2 years now and I am loosing trust that it will change again for the better anytime soon. Or maybe it's just a way to protect myself from being disappointed all the time. And I often wonder if I am strong enough to pull through for much loger .

And IMO being happy is mostly not what we experience in our lives but how we deal with it. How we are able to deal with pain and sorrow and fears. I witnessed that a lot in my family and it was really eye-opening. I believe that some people are a lot stonger emotionally than others. And IMO we are already born like that or not. And it is not so much our own experiences or if we are trying hard enough, but a more optimitic or pessimistic outlook on life we are born with. I try to get stronger emotionally, but it is hard for me.

formallypickles said:

PurpleJedi said:

Do you believe in Destiny? I only believe in destiny if it's in my favor If my destiny calls for my house getting blown up then no i don't believe in destiny

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yeah, as long as I'm benefiting from it.

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? YES, i think god planned to have this awesome kick ass universe where everything is wonderfully creative but destiny messed up a couple of his universes, solar systems and planets so he had to Wiki a couple of blackholes and space debris to get rid of his mistakes. He's making it seem like he has 10 pages of work but it's really 9.1. All that dark matter is just extra spacing, margin changes, and 14.4 font.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

I dont know but hope it's not all chance.

You're awesome.

i do believe everything that has happened to me in my life happened for a reason, and for a purpose to help someone else through my experience.

Serious said:

And IMO being happy is mostly not what we experience in our lives but how we deal with it. How we are able to deal with pain and sorrow and fears. I witnessed that a lot in my family and it was really eye-opening. I believe that some people are a lot stonger emotionally than others. And IMO we are already born like that or not. And it is not so much our own experiences or if we are trying hard enough, but a more optimitic or pessimistic outlook on life we are born with. I try to get stronger emotionally, but it is hard for me.

Interesting, How does one become emotionally strong? What does it mean to be emotionally strong?

PurpleJedi said:

CarrieMpls said:

Why can’t you be smart and happy, though?

Why does not believing in something have to equal sad or depressing?

What if better things aren’t in store for you? Whether or not there’s a higher power orchestrating your future you have no control over the matter anyway, right? So it’s up to you to make the happiness you seek. It’s all your choice.

Sure, life can be a violent struggle full of pain and misery till the day you die. That’s why all the little things that aren’t pain and misery are so freaking fantastic.

It's a rather simplistic way of me stating something more complicated I guess (the smart/sad bit).

Do you remember the thread? It wasn't about IQ...and it wasn't about God...it was more about people who are fully aware of their situation and the misery that circumstances may bring as being more "unhappy" than people who will more likely ignore the facts and walk around with a smile on their face.

I only mentioned it here because it resonates with Punkmistress's post.

You see...I personally recognize that we all make decisions (part of the reason for THIS thread) and have always had a mindset that we must accept the consequences of any & all of our actions...the good and the bad. Much soul-searching ensues, with the typical emotional accompaniments; anxiety, regret, remorse, anger, nostalgia, and all those other finer points of basic sadness. Because quite frankly, it's all on our shoulders. Every ounce of it.

I would very much like to make it all go away, banish those thoughts by whatever means (as I mentioned before).

The little things have always helped me get by...up to a year ago I walked around with a smile on my face most of the time. I do appreciate the little things. It's the big, bad things that make my hair fall out in clumps.

But then again maybe I'm just low in Vitamin D again and rambling nonsense.

formallypickles said:

Serious said:

And IMO being happy is mostly not what we experience in our lives but how we deal with it. How we are able to deal with pain and sorrow and fears. I witnessed that a lot in my family and it was really eye-opening. I believe that some people are a lot stonger emotionally than others. And IMO we are already born like that or not. And it is not so much our own experiences or if we are trying hard enough, but a more optimitic or pessimistic outlook on life we are born with. I try to get stronger emotionally, but it is hard for me.

Interesting, How does one become emotionally strong? What does it mean to be emotionally strong?

For me it means to try to stay positive when times are hard. I am way too sensitive and get hurt easily. So I try to become "tougher".

kimrachell said:

i do believe everything that has happened to me in my life happened for a reason, and for a purpose to help someone else through my experience.

That's a wonderful way to look on life . And I agree that "things happen for a reason" must not only mean for one self but could also mean for somebody else. That we might have a purpose in somebody else's life.

PurpleJedi said:

Do you believe in Destiny? The album? Hell yes! Seriously, yes I do believe.

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yes, everything does happen for a reason. So in the mean time, laugh when you feel like crying, and dance when you feel blue, because one day, everything is going to make perfect sense.

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? Yes, I believe in God. I mean, I'm a scientist, and everyone thinks that science is the study of everything observable and quantifiable. Well, gravity and air are not observable entities. We cannot bottle gravity and study it. We don't know the limits of our own galaxy, or how long it will last, or if it will last at all. But yet we know they exist. Every moment i spend studying, discovering nature, studying anatomy and physiology, it confirms my belief that a Master Planner made it all, because nothing in this universe can ever concieve of such perfect creation. That's just my own opinion.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

Although there are circumstances we cannot control, in the end. it falls to us to make the change we wish to see in this world. We have a will for a reason.

This excerpt from one of my favorite movies regarding fate and love explains it perfectly:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

one day, everything is going to make perfect sense.

The older I get, the more statements like this make me angry.

I know it brings comfort to many, but it just pisses me off.

I don't think my pain and suffering, my cousin's rape, my mother-in-law's constant abuse by her husband, the child dying of AIDS and shunned by her community, will someday make "perfect sense."

If believing that brings someone comfort, I wish them well.

But when they tell me this as if it's fact, I want to fucking blow something up.

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

PurpleJedi said:

Do you believe in Destiny? The album? Hell yes! Seriously, yes I do believe.

Do you believe that things "happen for a reason" or is it all just a bunch of shit that happens by happenstance? Yes, everything does happen for a reason. So in the mean time, laugh when you feel like crying, and dance when you feel blue, because one day, everything is going to make perfect sense.

Are you a believer in a "greater force" that guides us and dishes out the good and the bad, all towards a master plan or something like that? Yes, I believe in God. I mean, I'm a scientist, and everyone thinks that science is the study of everything observable and quantifiable. Well, gravity and air are not observable entities. We cannot bottle gravity and study it. We don't know the limits of our own galaxy, or how long it will last, or if it will last at all. But yet we know they exist. Every moment i spend studying, discovering nature, studying anatomy and physiology, it confirms my belief that a Master Planner made it all, because nothing in this universe can ever concieve of such perfect creation. That's just my own opinion.

Or is it all about pure decisions and chance encounters coupled with accidents and blind luck?

Although there are circumstances we cannot control, in the end. it falls to us to make the change we wish to see in this world. We have a will for a reason.

I agree with you on most, and hope you're right on the rest.

sunflower7 said:

This excerpt from one of my favorite movies regarding fate and love explains it perfectly:

Henry: Do you really think there is only one perfect mate?
Leonardo da Vinci: As a matter of fact, I do.
Henry: Well then how can you be certain to find them? And if you do find them, are they really the one for you or do you only think they are? And what happens if the person you're supposed to be with never appears, or, or she does, but you're too distracted to notice?
Leonardo da Vinci: You learn to pay attention.
Henry: Then let's say God puts two people on Earth and they are lucky enough to find one another. But one of them gets hit by lightning. Well then what? Is that it? Or, perchance, you meet someone new and marry all over again. Is that the lady you're supposed to be with or was it the first? And if so, when the two of them were walking side by side were they both the one for you and you just happened to meet the first one first or, was the second one supposed to be first? And is everything just chance or are some things meant to be?

---

Leonardo da Vinci: You cannot leave everything to Fate, boy. She's got a lot to do. Sometimes you must give her a hand.
Share this quote

---

What movie was that???

He never really answered Henry at the end though.

PunkMistress said:

ThruTheEyesOfWonder said:

The older I get, the more statements like this make me angry.

I know it brings comfort to many, but it just pisses me off.

I don't think my pain and suffering, my cousin's rape, my mother-in-law's constant abuse by her husband, the child dying of AIDS and shunned by her community, will someday make "perfect sense."

If believing that brings someone comfort, I wish them well.

But when they tell me this as if it's fact, I want to fucking blow something up.

Please step away from the microwave and put down the can of aerosol spray. (Chris where are you man?)

On a serious tip...I feel like you most of the time Erin. In fact, you could say that I lost my religion when I could no longer accept that as Gospel (the Lord works in mysterious ways and all that). As I stated before, my cousin is tugging at my heartstrings (God has a plan for you, what brings you pain now may bring you untold happiness later, trust Jesus, & all that) but I think I'm far too much of a heathen for that.

It is comforting, and if it came to choosing between living the rest of my life as a bitter, angry old man or a happy, bible-thumping born-again...I would choose the latter. However, my goal is to be somewhere in the middle...in true agnostic fashion.

PurpleJedi said:

sunflower7 said:

This excerpt from one of my favorite movies regarding fate and love explains it perfectly:

Henry: Do you really think there is only one perfect mate?
Leonardo da Vinci: As a matter of fact, I do.
Henry: Well then how can you be certain to find them? And if you do find them, are they really the one for you or do you only think they are? And what happens if the person you're supposed to be with never appears, or, or she does, but you're too distracted to notice?
Leonardo da Vinci: You learn to pay attention.
Henry: Then let's say God puts two people on Earth and they are lucky enough to find one another. But one of them gets hit by lightning. Well then what? Is that it? Or, perchance, you meet someone new and marry all over again. Is that the lady you're supposed to be with or was it the first? And if so, when the two of them were walking side by side were they both the one for you and you just happened to meet the first one first or, was the second one supposed to be first? And is everything just chance or are some things meant to be?

---

Leonardo da Vinci: You cannot leave everything to Fate, boy. She's got a lot to do. Sometimes you must give her a hand.
Share this quote

---

What movie was that???

He never really answered Henry at the end though.

I guess his answer was take a chance, and fate will work it out later....

From movie... Ever After

[Edited 12/5/11 13:44pm]

sunflower7 said:

PurpleJedi said:

What movie was that???

He never really answered Henry at the end though.

I guess his answer was take a chance, and fate will work it out later....

From movie... Happily Ever After

Yeah, I figured as much...but still if I was Henry I'd have punched him in the nose.

PurpleJedi said:

sunflower7 said:

I guess his answer was take a chance, and fate will work it out later....

From movie... Ever After

Yeah, I figured as much...but still if I was Henry I'd have punched him in the nose.

PurpleJedi said:

Dave1992 said:

It's my way of and reason for believing in God without harming other people and telling them their ways are wrong and mine are better. To me, God is a concept meant to connect people, as they believe and trust in something they cannot see. The picture and the (to me) reasonable meaning got very distorted through church (a profit-oriented organisation) and religion (mostly groups of people who claim to know, not to believe).

Don't want to derail my own thread...but you realize that you don't really believe in "God" right? It's like saying "I believe in the concept of the moon being made of cheese" while knowing full well it's a rock.

I'm sorry for getting a bit off-topic in the first place, but I find this topic also extremely interesting and I enjoy discussing it (with the right kind of people, of course).

Well, probably, yes! I know that God doesn't physically exist and all that, so I don't really believe in the existance. But, to me, that's completely irrelevant. I believe in the power "belief" can convey and in the happiness, peace and connection it can evoke. God starts existing the moment you believe in him and he ceases to exist the moment you cease believing in him.

It's just when people start killing in the name of God that I speak up and tell them that is not what any God should stand for and evoke. Or when they damn other people and tell them they are wrong, because their God is less "real". Then I try to remind them that God is a means to an end; a concept to create well-being, peace, connection, faith (in each other) etc. It doesn't matter if the means are real as long as the end is.

To round it off, it's the same with fate, in my opinion. It's not real, it doesn't exist, because everything that happens can be proven and calculated mathematically (plus, it would seem a bit arrogant to believe that our fate is not to be hungry and have a home and the fate of so many of millions of other people is to starve. There IS something we can do about it and it IS our choice; but that's a different topic all together...), but it certainly may be useful!

It may easy pain, it may motivate, it may evoke the feeling of being secure, it may evoke trust in oneself and the world around you.

But then again, the other extreme is: it may also evoke arrogance, neglect, languidness, demotivation etc.

In both cases, the "concept" is not real (in my opinion, based on science, which is the highest we humans can reach for in this moment in time, looking for the truth), but the question of it being real is completely irrelevant, if the results are positive and real.