retina said:

Serious said:

Something like good health care or having the chance to use the underground all night long on weekends is a plus and not just a lack of a minus.

On the other hand Capetown for example is considered to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And yes that's true, but when I saw the poverty and still existing racism there I couldn't really enjoy it that much.

I disagree that good health care and infrastructure are plusses. They are just things that keep us alive and not-sick and transport us from point A to point B. Existence-sustaining stuff. From there you need to add things to make life worth living. It really depresses me to see our old folks sit in their perfectly run care homes and wither away while Japanese and American seniors are out and about living their lives until they die.

As for the Capetown example I agree that there are minuses as well as plusses, and it might well be that they cancel each other out, at least for you. My problem is just that the studies like the one mentioned above (and a lot of people's attitudes) don't take its plusses into account at all.

And things that were taken into consideration for that survey were amongst others a variety of restaurants and nice places for leisure time like parks or beaches and these things are plusses IMO.

Serious said:

retina said:

I disagree that good health care and infrastructure are plusses. They are just things that keep us alive and not-sick and transport us from point A to point B. Existence-sustaining stuff. From there you need to add things to make life worth living. It really depresses me to see our old folks sit in their perfectly run care homes and wither away while Japanese and American seniors are out and about living their lives until they die.

As for the Capetown example I agree that there are minuses as well as plusses, and it might well be that they cancel each other out, at least for you. My problem is just that the studies like the one mentioned above (and a lot of people's attitudes) don't take its plusses into account at all.

But they transport me to places that I can enjoy !

And the thing with old folks is that the families here usually don't take care of old relatives anymore and that's a different thing all together.

Exactly! Our socities are so focused on safety and preservation that they wrap their vulnerable citizens into a protective cocoon of suspended animation, and it's all at the expense of togetherness and family and life in general.

It's not like they'd be better off if we handed them over to the crazy-ass American Republicans that want to dismantle the whole government so that they can go shoot their gosh-darn-tootin' guns until the cows come home. I appreciate our saftey nets. But our countries are so single-mindedly focused on maintaining them that many of us have forgotten how to live life to the fullest, take risks and have fun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm bored to death over here. lol

retina said:

Serious said:

But they transport me to places that I can enjoy !

And the thing with old folks is that the families here usually don't take care of old relatives anymore and that's a different thing all together.

Exactly! Our socities are so focused on safety and preservation that they wrap their vulnerable citizens into a protective cocoon of suspended animation, and it's all at the expense of togetherness and family and life in general.

It's not like they'd be better off if we handed them over to the crazy-ass American Republicans that want to dismantle the whole government so that they can go shoot their gosh-darn-tootin' guns until the cows come home. I appreciate our saftey nets. But our countries are so single-mindedly focused on maintaining them that many of us have forgotten how to live life to the fullest, take risks and have fun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm bored to death over here. lol

Not everybody is like that though. My dad was very sick for many years and my mom took care of him at home all these years until he died.

In a way it's the same with the children who are taken care of by people outside the families for many hours a day from a very early age.

I know what you mean. I spent quite some time in Trinidad/Tobago in the last years and people over there seem to be a lot happier even though they cannot afford a lifestyle compared to the one in Europe. But they are singing and dancing all the time and enjoying life and don't worry as much as we do, but just live day by day. It taught me a lot living a very simple life overthere.

NDRU said:

That is really interesting. And pretty telling that not a single US city is on there.

US cities have great qualities, but they all have terrible qualities too. At least I live close to the highest ranking US city--San Francisco #30-something

i lived in san fran as a teen and just drove back from there after thanksgiving. though i've lived most of my life here in l.a., there is something about san fran that makes me want to move there

again.

l.a. seems to muddle along somehow in spite our horrible mayor and even worse city council.

retina said:

Serious said:

But they transport me to places that I can enjoy !

And the thing with old folks is that the families here usually don't take care of old relatives anymore and that's a different thing all together.

Exactly! Our socities are so focused on safety and preservation that they wrap their vulnerable citizens into a protective cocoon of suspended animation, and it's all at the expense of togetherness and family and life in general.

It's not like they'd be better off if we handed them over to the crazy-ass American Republicans that want to dismantle the whole government so that they can go shoot their gosh-darn-tootin' guns until the cows come home. I appreciate our saftey nets. But our countries are so single-mindedly focused on maintaining them that many of us have forgotten how to live life to the fullest, take risks and have fun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm bored to death over here. lol

You seem to have a luxury problem.

Have you ever lived in places where you don't know if or when any public transport will function? Where you can't get medical care and you die of a 'minor' disease that for western Europeans is unthinkable. Do you realize that in the US a lot of people get into life time financial troubles when they are faced with disease or accidents?

You don't know slums, because there aren't any in Stockholm. And saying that slums can get balanced out by the fun things, to me sounds like a very limited capapbility of realizing what people actually go through.

Complaining from your nice city about how boring it is, compared to Jakarta, sort of makes me want to vomit invite you to go and live in Jakarta for 30 years with the income of most inhabitants of Jakarta. See how much fun and how entertaining you think it is then.

Wasn't Justerin thinking about moving to Vancouver?

Well, the list backs her up. It is one of the best places in the world. So, I can understand she wants to go there.

dJJ said:

Wasn't Justerin thinking about moving to Vancouver?

Well, the list backs her up. It is one of the best places in the world. So, I can understand she wants to go there.

Yep. And Vancouver is a nice city.

dJJ said:

retina said:

Exactly! Our socities are so focused on safety and preservation that they wrap their vulnerable citizens into a protective cocoon of suspended animation, and it's all at the expense of togetherness and family and life in general.

It's not like they'd be better off if we handed them over to the crazy-ass American Republicans that want to dismantle the whole government so that they can go shoot their gosh-darn-tootin' guns until the cows come home. I appreciate our saftey nets. But our countries are so single-mindedly focused on maintaining them that many of us have forgotten how to live life to the fullest, take risks and have fun.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm bored to death over here. lol

You seem to have a luxury problem.

Have you ever lived in places where you don't know if or when any public transport will function? Where you can't get medical care and you die of a 'minor' disease that for western Europeans is unthinkable. Do you realize that in the US a lot of people get into life time financial troubles when they are faced with disease or accidents?

You don't know slums, because there aren't any in Stockholm. And saying that slums can get balanced out by the fun things, to me sounds like a very limited capapbility of realizing what people actually go through.

Complaining from your nice city about how boring it is, compared to Jakarta, sort of makes me want to vomit invite you to go and live in Jakarta for 30 years with the income of most inhabitants of Jakarta. See how much fun and how entertaining you think it is then.

Spare me your presumptuous, ignorant bullshit. You don't know what I have or have not experienced. I'm very well travelled and have lived in several other countries, and I know what hardship is. You're totally missing the point, and rather than repeating it until you understand, I advise you to re-read what I've already posted.

This list will come in handy for when I expatriate.

I'm really happy I live in Vienna and if I could choose to live in one city my whole life (even though I want to travel and eventually live somewhere else) I'd probably still choose Vienna.

The only downside of Vienna is the dog waste in the streets. In fact, dogs are being given way too much freedom here. The dog licence fee is way below average, the social awareness is that dog = child (I was not allowed to play in the parks as a kid, because of dog shit being everywhere etc).

How well animals are treated usually tells something about how advanced a country is, but the balance is not idea in Vienna, in my opinion.

I do like the vibe, the café house culture, the grumpyness of the old Viennese, the black humour. The city is beautiful.

And I really don't have the impression people here (at least in Vienna) are xenophobic. I can imagine it being different out in the countryside (and, to be honest, you have some "rednecks" in every city in this world). Especially the young scene is very open-minded.

Dave1992 said:

I'm really happy I live in Vienna and if I could choose to live in one city my whole life (even though I want to travel and eventually live somewhere else) I'd probably still choose Vienna.

The only downside of Vienna is the dog waste in the streets. In fact, dogs are being given way too much freedom here. The dog licence fee is way below average, the social awareness is that dog = child (I was not allowed to play in the parks as a kid, because of dog shit being everywhere etc).

How well animals are treated usually tells something about how advanced a country is, but the balance is not idea in Vienna, in my opinion.

I do like the vibe, the café house culture, the grumpyness of the old Viennese, the black humour. The city is beautiful.

And I really don't have the impression people here (at least in Vienna) are xenophobic. I can imagine it being different out in the countryside (and, to be honest, you have some "rednecks" in every city in this world). Especially the young scene is very open-minded.

I completely disagree Dave.

I will never get it why people care so much about dogshit, but not about the pollution caused by cars.

And I very much get the impression people here in Vienna are xenophobic, I watch that all the time. Younger people here may not be as xenophobic as the older generation, but just look how many votes the right wing parties get with their xenophobic ads . Whenever I have anybody from abroad over to stay with me they are very shocked and cannot believe their eyes. And these parties get a lot of votes from the younger generation too .

Serious said:

Dave1992 said:

I'm really happy I live in Vienna and if I could choose to live in one city my whole life (even though I want to travel and eventually live somewhere else) I'd probably still choose Vienna.

The only downside of Vienna is the dog waste in the streets. In fact, dogs are being given way too much freedom here. The dog licence fee is way below average, the social awareness is that dog = child (I was not allowed to play in the parks as a kid, because of dog shit being everywhere etc).

How well animals are treated usually tells something about how advanced a country is, but the balance is not idea in Vienna, in my opinion.

I do like the vibe, the café house culture, the grumpyness of the old Viennese, the black humour. The city is beautiful.

And I really don't have the impression people here (at least in Vienna) are xenophobic. I can imagine it being different out in the countryside (and, to be honest, you have some "rednecks" in every city in this world). Especially the young scene is very open-minded.

I completely disagree Dave.

I will never get it why people care so much about dogshit, but not about the pollution caused by cars.

And I very much get the impression people here in Vienna are xenophobic, I watch that all the time. Younger people here may not be as xenophobic as the older generation, but just look how many votes the right wing parties get with their xenophobic ads . Whenever I have anybody from abroad over to stay with me they are very shocked and cannot believe their eyes. And these parties get a lot of votes from the younger generation too .

Car pollution-wise Vienna is very clean. The public transport system is great. Parks should be a place for people to escape car pollution, and not for dog shit.

Voting for a right-wing party does not always equal xenophobia (although it veers towards it, of course). I think most of those people just want less foreigners to come to Austria for other reasons than their being simply foreign, and while I don't share their opinion, it is very well comprehensible.

And compare the power/attitude of "right wing" parties/messages in Austria to what we find in Italy, Poland, Russia, some parts of the U.S., Le Pen in France, many countries in Africa and South America etc. Again, I do not "agree" with those politics, but I must say that we Austrians (due to our history) are a bit over-sensitive to call out our politics and xenophobia when there are so many other countries who are way worse. Of course that's not an excuse, but this was your argument for why you didn't like it here and putting it in perspective makes it a bit weaker, in my opinion.

[Edited 11/30/11 3:14am]

Dave1992 said:

Serious said:

I completely disagree Dave.

I will never get it why people care so much about dogshit, but not about the pollution caused by cars.

And I very much get the impression people here in Vienna are xenophobic, I watch that all the time. Younger people here may not be as xenophobic as the older generation, but just look how many votes the right wing parties get with their xenophobic ads . Whenever I have anybody from abroad over to stay with me they are very shocked and cannot believe their eyes. And these parties get a lot of votes from the younger generation too .

Car pollution-wise Vienna is very clean. The public transport system is great. Parks should be a place for people to escape car pollution, and not for dog shit.

Voting for a right-wing party does not always equal xenophobic. I think most of those people just want less foreigners to come to Austria and while I don't share their opinion, it is very well comprehensible.

And compare the power/attitude of "right wing" parties/messages in Austria to what we find in Italy, Poland, Russia, some parts of the U.S., Le Pen in France, many countries in Africa and South America etc. Again, I do not "agree" with those politics, but I must say that we Austrians (due to our history) are a bit over-sensitive to call out our politics and xenophobia, when there are so many other countries who are way worse. Of course that's not an excuse, but this was your argument for why you didn't like it here.

I couldn't disagree more about the bolded parts. IMO because of our history and because many family have grandparents who were nazis many people here still have the same frame of mind from back then and don't want to deal with the guilt of their families. So instead of trying to make it better and learn from our history they repeat it right now and IMO it's even less excusable then what happened then because by now we should know from what happened what it leads to if you use certain people as scapegoats for what's going wrong. And now we are living a good life compared to the 1920s and 30s and have no excuse at all for that kind of behaviour.

But let's stop that discussion here, I still remember the one we had when Jörg Haider died .

And yes the car pollution might be worse elsewhere, but it is still affecting our children a million times more than dogshit. Not too emntion that back then children could play on the streets and in some countries still can.

Serious said:

Dave1992 said:

Car pollution-wise Vienna is very clean. The public transport system is great. Parks should be a place for people to escape car pollution, and not for dog shit.

Voting for a right-wing party does not always equal xenophobic. I think most of those people just want less foreigners to come to Austria and while I don't share their opinion, it is very well comprehensible.

And compare the power/attitude of "right wing" parties/messages in Austria to what we find in Italy, Poland, Russia, some parts of the U.S., Le Pen in France, many countries in Africa and South America etc. Again, I do not "agree" with those politics, but I must say that we Austrians (due to our history) are a bit over-sensitive to call out our politics and xenophobia, when there are so many other countries who are way worse. Of course that's not an excuse, but this was your argument for why you didn't like it here.

I couldn't disagree more about the bolded parts. IMO because of our history and because many family have grandparents who were nazis many people here still have the same frame of mind from back then and don't want to deal with the guilt of their families. So instead of trying to make it better and learn from our history they repeat it right now and IMO it's even less excusable then what happened then because by now we should know from what happened what it leads to if you use certain people as scapegoats for what's going wrong. And now we are living a good life compared to the 1920s and 30s and have no excuse at all for that kind of behaviour.

But let's stop that discussion here, I still remember the one we had when Jörg Haider died .

And yes the car pollution might be worse elsewhere, but it is still affecting our children a million times more than dogshit. Not too emntion that back then children could play on the streets and in some countries still can.

My words were not picked well until I edited my post. Like I said, I don't think people vote right-wing just because they don't want people from other countries here. There are other (maybe stupid, but nonetheless more comprehensible) reasons.

I don't have children myself and I haven't asked all Austrian children, but speaking from my point of view, I'd rather have a nice sniff of petrol than having to smell and look at dog shit, not being able to sit in the grass in a park. It was the same 15 years ago. So no, car pollution didn't affect me as much as dog poo.

Plus, I'd simply like to have freedom of choice. If you don't like car pollution, you can go to all the green places in Vienna. But if you don't like dog poo, there's absolutely nowhere to run in this city.

But why did you even bring up this argument/comparison? Isn't it a bit irrelevant? Those "problems" are not at all related. Getting rid of dog poo will not make car pollution worse nor better and the other way round. I'd also get rid of car pollution if it were as easy as getting rid of dog shit.

(Lastly, speaking from my personal point of view, I need my car more than I need dogs.)

[Edited 11/30/11 3:34am]

Dave1992 said:

Plus, I'd simply like to have freedom of choice. If you don't like car pollution, you can go to all the green places in Vienna. But if you don't like dog poo, there's absolutely nowhere to run in this city.

But why did you even bring up this argument/comparison? Isn't it a bit irrelevant? Those "problems" are not at all related. Getting rid of dog poo will not make car pollution worse nor better and the other way round. I'd also get rid of car pollution if it were as easy as getting rid of dog shit.

(Lastly, speaking from my personal point of view, I need my car more than I need dogs.)

[Edited 11/30/11 3:34am]

And you think the air won't be affected by the pollution there ? It's just the opposite: you can always find a place where there is no dog shit easily, but the pollution of the cars is everywhere in the air, no matter where you go.

Serious said:

Dave1992 said:

Plus, I'd simply like to have freedom of choice. If you don't like car pollution, you can go to all the green places in Vienna. But if you don't like dog poo, there's absolutely nowhere to run in this city.

But why did you even bring up this argument/comparison? Isn't it a bit irrelevant? Those "problems" are not at all related. Getting rid of dog poo will not make car pollution worse nor better and the other way round. I'd also get rid of car pollution if it were as easy as getting rid of dog shit.

(Lastly, speaking from my personal point of view, I need my car more than I need dogs.)

[Edited 11/30/11 3:34am]

And you think the air won't be affected by the pollution there ? It's just the opposite: you can always find a place where there is no dog shit easily, but the pollution of the cars is everywhere in the air, no matter where you go.

No, the pollution is "dangerous" next to streets with loads of cars. In Hyde Park, in the middle of London, the air is better than on a main street in a small town!

I'm looking desperately - please enlighten me and share the last oasis of human culture!

Like I said: I'd also get rid of car pollution if it were as easy as getting rid of dog shit.

retina said:

Ugh, these studies always miss the point of quality of life. Yes, the cities listed have a low crime rate. Yes, they won't let you die in the street if you get sick. Yes, the trains don't usually run late. But none of that is on the plus side, it's just a lack of minus.

Same thing goes for my city (Stockholm). You're perfectly safe, everything works, the streets are clean, yadda yadda yadda. But where's the spice of life? Where's the fun? Who measures the things that actually elevate life to a higher level, as opposed to just eliminate its perils? If those things were taken into account I bet a lot of the so-called unsafe cities of the world would rank a lot higher.

Great point.

Serious said:

sextonseven said:

It's all so clear now! Much better than using Rosetta Stone.

Glad I could help !

I did find the teacher's piercings distracting though. I don't think any German or Austrian should draw that much attention to that part of their face.

sextonseven said:

Serious said:

Glad I could help !

I did find the teacher's piercings distracting though. I don't think any German or Austrian should draw that much attention to that part of their face.

I don't think anybody period should!

sextonseven said:

The top 50 cities:

Mercer Quality of Living Survey - Worldwide Rankings, 2011
Rank	City	Country
1	Vienna	Austria
2	Zurich	Switzerland
3	Auckland	New Zealand
4	Munich	Germany
5	Düsseldorf	Germany
5	Vancouver	Canada
7	Frankfurt	Germany
8	Geneva	Switzerland
9	Bern	Switzerland
9	Copenhagen	Denmark
11	Sydney	Australia
12	Amsterdam	Netherlands
13	Wellington	New Zealand
14	Ottawa	Canada
15	Toronto	Canada
16	Hamburg	Germany
17	Berlin	Germany
18	Melbourne	Australia
19	Luxembourg	Luxembourg
20	Stockholm	Sweden
21	Perth	Australia
22	Brussels	Belgium
22	Montreal	Canada
24	Nurnberg	Germany
25	Singapore	Singapore
26	Canberra	Australia
26	Dublin	Ireland
28	Stuttgart	Germany
29	Honolulu, HI	United States
30	Adelaide	Australia
30	Paris	France
30	San Francisco, CA	United States
33	Calgary	Canada
33	Oslo	Norway
35	Helsinki	Finland
36	Boston, MA	United States
37	Brisbane	Australia
38	London	United Kingdom
39	Lyon	France
40	Barcelona	Spain
41	Lisbon	Portugal
42	Milan	Italy
43	Chicago, IL	United States
43	Madrid	Spain
43	Washington, DC	United States
46	Tokyo	Japan
47	New York City, NY	United States
48	Seattle, WA	United States
49	Kobe	Japan
49	Pittsburgh, PA	United States
49	Yokohama	Japan

^ i've lived in and/or visited quite a few on that list. there is no way it reflects a universal standard of living gauge. NO way.

[Edited 11/30/11 9:46am]

retina said:

dJJ said:

You seem to have a luxury problem.

Have you ever lived in places where you don't know if or when any public transport will function? Where you can't get medical care and you die of a 'minor' disease that for western Europeans is unthinkable. Do you realize that in the US a lot of people get into life time financial troubles when they are faced with disease or accidents?

You don't know slums, because there aren't any in Stockholm. And saying that slums can get balanced out by the fun things, to me sounds like a very limited capapbility of realizing what people actually go through.

Complaining from your nice city about how boring it is, compared to Jakarta, sort of makes me want to vomit invite you to go and live in Jakarta for 30 years with the income of most inhabitants of Jakarta. See how much fun and how entertaining you think it is then.

Spare me your presumptuous, ignorant bullshit. You don't know what I have or have not experienced. I'm very well travelled and have lived in several other countries, and I know what hardship is. You're totally missing the point, and rather than repeating it until you understand, I advise you to re-read what I've already posted.

Good to know your so worldly and experienced. That really makes a difference. I take back everything I said. You keep on complaining on how bored you are in Stockholm and how the excellent and affordable healt care and functioning and affordable infrastructure are of minor importance.

dJJ said:

retina said:

Spare me your presumptuous, ignorant bullshit. You don't know what I have or have not experienced. I'm very well travelled and have lived in several other countries, and I know what hardship is. You're totally missing the point, and rather than repeating it until you understand, I advise you to re-read what I've already posted.

Good to know your so worldly and experienced. That really makes a difference. I take back everything I said. You keep on complaining on how bored you are in Stockholm and how the excellent and affordable healt care and functioning and affordable infrastructure are of minor importance.

I never said it's of minor importance. I said it's something that helps eliminate the minuses and sustain one's existence. Countries that don't have good health care are of course at a disadvantage in that regard, no question about it. But they often have plusses in other regards and my whole point is that those should count towards quality of life too. So it really isn't a matter of trivializing hardships, it's a matter of taking more aspects of our complex reality into account. If quality of life had all been about eliminating minuses then a cryogenic freezer à la Alien would have earned top spot.

retina said:

dJJ said:

Good to know your so worldly and experienced. That really makes a difference. I take back everything I said. You keep on complaining on how bored you are in Stockholm and how the excellent and affordable healt care and functioning and affordable infrastructure are of minor importance.

I never said it's of minor importance. I said it's something that helps eliminate the minuses and sustain one's existence. Countries that don't have good health care are of course at a disadvantage in that regard, no question about it. But they often have plusses in other regards and my whole point is that those should count towards quality of life too. So it really isn't a matter of trivializing hardships, it's a matter of taking more aspects of our complex reality into account. If quality of life had all been about eliminating minuses then a cryogenic freezer à la Alien would have earned top spot.

Well, you know that in that scenario Amsterdam should have been No1 on that list, right?

Least boring, however most easy city in the world!