2the9s said:

It now smells terrific.

chickengrease said:

LaVisHh said:

Oh sure, play the female card!

Men don't need to wash as frequently it's the LAW.

teller said:

Okay, now you've done it--you've got me in lawyer mode, full speed ahead.

Mr. Travis was suggesting that these businesses want to have their cake and eat it too. They're happy to accept government protection by organizing their businesses as corporations (or similar business associations), which only exist by virtue of laws enacted by state legislatures. Yet, when the government wants to regulate these same businesses (e.g., by banning smoking), the businesses suddenly complain that the government is meddling in their affairs.

I don't think there's any inherent right to form a corporation, LLC (limited liability company), or any other business entity (besides a sole proprietorship or a general partnership). Corporations, LLC's, and the like are legal fictions with identities separate from those of the people who organized them. In a sense, when you form such a business organization, you're creating a "person" on paper.

I admit, though, that as a lawyer, I generally would not advise a client to run his or her business as a sole proprietorship or general partnership. Here in Indiana, you can form an LLC with very little paperwork and a $90 filing fee. I think that's a small price to pay for the benefits of an LLC, the most obvious one being limited liability. By "limited liability," I mean that the owners' personal assets are generally safe from any claims against the company or debts owed by the company--if necessary, the owners can even bankrupt the LLC and walk away with their personal credit reports unblemished.

[Matt's standard disclaimer: While I am licensed to practice law in Indiana, this post is for discussion purposes only, is not legal advice, and creates no attorney-client relationship.]

matt said:

And so, because the private individuals are not liable, these establishments are to be considered "public?" Why, then, do the owners still take the profits? Where's the line?

teller said:

No, that's not my point. Limited liability and the public/private distinction are apples and oranges.

Mr. Travis' argument, put simply, is that corporations, LLC's, and similar entities voluntarily choose to accept a benefit from the government: limited liability, a benefit to which they have no inherent right. Accordingly, they should be willing to accept greater government regulation. If they want the government to stay out of their business affairs, their alternative, according to Mr. Travis, should be to decline limited liability and operate as a sole proprietership or general partnership.

Mr. Travis basically suggests that these businesses are willing to accept government regulation only when they think it benefits them.

I'm not sure whether I agree with him or not, but it's a novel argument, and I find it intriguing.

matt said:

In California (and elsewhere), the fight to ban smoking in bars and restaurants was determined on the basis of risks to the employees (not the patrons) of secondhand smoke. There are ample data proving the dangers of secondhand cigarette smoke, and that's how the statute was argued and passed.

matt said:

I still wonder where the line would be drawn, in principle...could the government regulate any aspect of the business under these conditions then? Even wages and prices?

Well people whining about smoking creates noise pollution which contributes to stress and anxiety, both of which lead to numerous health problems.

I am really, really, REALLY tired of all those anti smoking commercials with teenagers and their stupid remarks.

Smokers are tax paying citizens of this country, in fact we pay more taxes than non smokers. In fact, we're slapped with a "sin tax" which is completely retarded. If everyone was taxed for their sins we should all be paying out the ass, not just smokers. I understand we both live in this country, but we've already compromised our rights for the sake of nonsmokers numerous times.

At this point, if you dont like cigarette smoke, get a gas mask, a jump suit, and a bottle of Febreeze and get off our backs. Not to sound insensitive, but how many people do you know who've croaked from second hand smoke?

Sometimes people's personalities can drive a person to drink and smoke...
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 17:53:27 PST 2003 by Tom]

2the9s said:

You can, and do.




stinky edit
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 17:58:28 PST 2003 by bkw]
[This message was edited Tue Feb 18 17:58:56 PST 2003 by bkw]

Tom said:

I take it you are just having fun and that this is not a serious arguement.

P U
just think, if you just go head and start smokin, lil shit like this won't bother you...

LaVisHh said:

i used to sing in a band in charleston about 4 years ago... this is the reason i had to quit... the only places that we could find to play down there were smoke infested and deviod of any ventilation whatsoever... whenever i would complain about it, the club owners would always turn the ceiling fans up faster... i've never understood why people think that this helps... it doesn't get rid of the smoke... it doesn't suck the smoke out of the place... it just stirs the shit around a lot...

so, in the beginning, we would play in places from 11PM-2AM... we would play 3 50 minute sets and take 10 minute breaks in between... right before i left the group, i was having to take a break for fresh air about every 20-30 minutes... eventually, i just left the band...

i think it's funny that you mention that you sound sick from all the smoke... ... same shit here... at the beginning of the night, i'd be sounding alright (or as alright as i can sound, anyway)... about halfway into the set, i'm not hitting nearly as many of the higher notes... during the last 30 minutes, i'm up on stage croaking... ... it's embarrassing...

smokers suck... plain and simple...


:NOD:



my edit stinks...
[This message was edited Wed Feb 19 5:04:16 PST 2003 by EllisDee]

I can top that...I have had smokers actually "bump" into me with their lit cigarette! So I'm fortunate enough to smell and be scarred by smokers

DarlinLaurie said:

I've not been scarred, but I have had a few items of clothing get burn marks on them, by careless smokers. I try to keep my distance, but they somehow they get me in tight spots!

Tom said:

[This message was edited Wed Feb 19 12:20:50 PST 2003 by butterfli25]

LaVisHh said:

My pet hate is smokers who arrogantly choose to smoke in a really enclosed area - such as on a bus - despite there being a no smoking sign on ever window and in every possible direction you look. Fuckers. They sit there polluting everyone else's air, while all the other smokers have the decency to wait until they get off the bus. When you ask them to stop, they even have the cheek to get aggressive! These sort of people should be lined up and shot. And I volunteer for the job!

ian said:

I'm a considerate smoker.i get a cig before i get on the bus, it aint no hardship.Hell if i can sit thru Lord of the rings for three hours, i can cross half the world in a plane and not smoke, those people that do it on a bus should be slapped!

my pet hate is people who bitch about smokers. grow the fuck up already

AaronUnlimited said:

And don't get me started on bitchy Org drama queens, those guys are the bloody worst!!

ian said:

i agree. we should do away with moderators altogether!

AaronUnlimited said:

I absolutely refuse to grow up.

AaronUnlimited said:

Man, Captain America was a rubbish superhero. All he has is a stupid shield, how "super" is that? If you are gonna ally yourself with a superhero, make it someone with a bit of cool, like Wolverine!

ian said:

I don't think Aaron gives a shit about his super shield, but his super... *ehem*

ian said:

I agree, Captain America is a shit superhero. But I like the colors and what he stands for I've taken him on as my avatar in case any limp-wristed French superheroes show up around here so I can kick their pansy-asses. I much prefer Captain Britain, but the British can kiss my ass too (except for Tony Blair, who must have come up in rotation to hold onto the only pair of royal jewels in the country and hasn't passed them to the next guy in the past 6 months).

LaVisHh said:

hey, what do you take me for? some kind of horny man-whore who thinks and talks about nothing but the male genetalia?? you must have me confused with no one else!

AaronUnlimited said: