The last article from Askmen.com that I shared was admittedly a bit biased and got some interesting replies from the ladies of the Org.

I think that this one is more reasonable...some solid points noted...maybe they read my old thread here?

Why Do Nice Guys Finish Last?

Our dating expert reveals how you can be a good man and still get the girl.

By David Wygant, Dating & Relationship Coach

Page 1: Why Do Nice Guys Finish Last?

You hear this over and over again: Nice guys finish last. Women just don't want a nice guy; they want the jerk, the bad boy. So you think to yourself, “I've got to learn how to be a complete player. I've got to learn how to put women down. I’ve got to learn how to not call her, how to make her want me. I've got to play games. I've got to create attraction that way -- that's what's going to work.”

Guess what happens when the nice guy starts to do that? He can't make that work either. Because it’s not authentic. He doesn't own his words, he doesn't come across as that type of person and a woman can read right through it and know that he's just playing a game.

So what does he do? He does the right thing. He treats women with lots of respect. Women always seem to say to him, “I just want to be friends.” Well, do nice guys finish last? It's partially true.

Women don't really want the nice guy. They always say they want a nice guy, but what they really want is a great guy. A guy with principles. A guy who really understands and respects himself. Nice guys respect themselves in a way, but they always agree. Whenever they're out on a date with a woman, they're always agreeing with everything she says. She may say, “I love to eat eggs while hiking up a mountain.” And while the nice guy knows doing something like that will give him indigestion, he'll say, “Sounds great! I love to hike mountains while eating eggs, too!” She may tell him, “I really want to take a skydiving vacation.” The nice guy might have acrophobia, and still he'll say, “Me, too!”

The Nice Guy Defined

While the nice guy is an agreeable person, he's got no control over his life. He allows women to come into his life, he agrees with them on everything, and hopes and prays that these women will like him for being so agreeable. It's so important for women to like him, so he's Mr. Agreeable.

Mr. Agreeable never gets the girl. He never gets the second date after the first because he's boring. What being so agreeable tells a woman is that you do not have enough self-respect to stand up to your own values. You don't think enough of yourself to own your identity, so you become accommodating, inoffensive and boring. You become the boring nice guy nobody wants to date. When you’re attracted to a woman, you do everything you can to please her. She's got a cold? You’ll bring her cold medicine. She tells you she's got a headache tonight? You drive her home. She tells you that she can't see you this weekend, you'll say, “Oh, that's OK. We'll get together whenever you're ready.” You don't have a plan. You're wishy-washy on everything you do. You're Mr. Whatever-You-Want-To-Do.

[edited for compliance]

Page 2: Women And Nice Guys

The nice guy is actually giving up control over his life to the women he wants to date. He’s too scared to live his own life, too scared to do what he wants to do. Women don't want power over a man like that. What women want is a man. They want a leader -- a great guy who will lead them. A guy who, when he dates them, takes them places and takes care of things his way, who stands up for who he is and will debate her on topics if he doesn't agree with her.

Nice guys never stand up for themselves, because that’s what nice guys do -- they don't believe they can get women. They've got this fear that they can’t get the woman they truly want, so they take whatever they can get. They literally beg their way into a relationship. And a woman knows that from there on, she basically has him by the balls.

Be A Great Guy, Not A Nice Guy

If you're nice, that's great, but what you really want to be is a great guy. You want to be a man who treats people well and also stands up to his own principles. You want to be a man who stands on his own two feet and isn't afraid to stand up to a woman just because he’s attracted to her. You want to be a man who leads, a man who decides if he wants to pursue the relationship or not, not a nice guy who tries to conform to her wants every which way and puts himself in the beggar's role. Nice guys are beggars. Great guys are catches.

To get there, you have to truly believe it. You have to live your life in a way that you truly want and not give it up just to make your date happy. You have to know that you are a great, interesting person to date, that you can get the women you want and that you can get laid when you want. Women want to be with a guy who knows he can actually get laid by other women but chooses to be with her. Women don’t want to be with a guy because she is his only option.

If you’re nice at heart, you’re nice. You treat people well. Embrace it -- it’s a great quality to have. Don’t hide it by playing games and trying to be a bad boy. But what you need to do is be a great guy. Don’t be nice just to get a woman to like you. It never works.

Article from ASKMEN.COM

I'm actually not a nice guy in that sense - being agreeable, etc. It's not in my nature.

But, during the course of my marriage I became that way. And now I see that that's what I resented the most.

Essentially what I now see in retrospect is that we had so many issues and so many different sets of problems that neither of us knew how to deal with (both individually and as a couple), that I was forced to become "agreeable" in situations I normally wouldn't be, because I became afraid that one wrong thing said would dredge up EVERYTHING. So I felt like I was always walking on eggshells.

You know the kinda arguments/fights that are about nothing and also about everything at the same time? That's how ours were. And it seemed so irrational because I could never "predict" what would start that fight. Most of the time it just seemed completely random. Probably not helped by the fact that we were both the sort of people that would sweep certain problems under the rug and just keep going rather than dealing with them at the time, so they'd inevitably resurface at some inopportune moment.

So, when she told me that I wasn't the man she fell in love with anymore, she was right. And she undoubtedly felt guilty because she's the one that changed me.

The complete irony of the situation is that, now, I AM that person she originally fell in love with again, the real me that got lost somewhere along the way in our marriage. And I'm that person ten times upgraded. I regained all the confidence and I learned from all the mistakes. And even if she recognised it, I don't even want her back anymore.

Now, I feel unstoppable

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Edited 10/7/11 14:10pm]

Militant said:

I'm actually not a nice guy in that sense - being agreeable, etc. It's not in my nature.

But, during the course of my marriage I became that way. And now I see that that's what I resented the most.

Essentially what I now see in retrospect is that we had so many issues and so many different sets of problems that neither of us knew how to deal with (both individually and as a couple), that I was forced to become "agreeable" in situations I normally wouldn't be, because I became afraid that one wrong thing said would dredge up EVERYTHING. So I felt like I was always walking on eggshells.

You know the kinda arguments/fights that are about nothing and also about everything at the same time? That's how ours were. And it seemed so irrational because I could never "predict" what would start that fight. Most of the time it just seemed completely random. Probably not helped by the fact that we were both the sort of people that would sweep certain problems under the rug and just keep going rather than dealing with them at the time, so they'd inevitably resurface at some inopportune moment.

So, when she told me that I wasn't the man she fell in love with anymore, she was right. And she undoubtedly felt guilty because she's the one that changed me.

The complete irony of the situation is that, now, I AM that person she originally fell in love with again, the real me that got lost somewhere along the way in our marriage. And I'm that person ten times upgraded. I regained all the confidence and I learned from all the mistakes. And even if she recognised it, I don't even want her back anymore.

Now, I feel unstoppable

O.D.C. all the way man!

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

Oh man...that hits a nerve...fuck.

You live and learn.

I don't think anybody should be "nice".

All the threads I am on are taking me to the same place! Steve Jobs had a wonderful life but he was not "nice" he was unpleasant when he felt the need to be.

I think that we "nice" people cause our own fate by not looking at both sides of our own ying/yang personality. I think we need to make friends with our own dark side and be honest about it. I don't think that we should be dark characters all of the time but completely trying to suppress it can lead to passive aggressive behavior, depression, overeating and a host of problems. This is all my opinion from what I observed. I have plenty of pleasant friends who are on anti depressants and are obese. (Time to give my inner skinny bitch her say. I may not let her speak to others but I at least must let her speak to me).

I wonder when are the writers of these type of articles going to realize that different women like different types of things.

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Edited 10/7/11 14:10pm]

It's not exclusive for males. There are "nice girls" too. They get into a 12-step program for their love-addiction. Or Codependancy.

Men could do that too.

in the long run, nice guys have more to hold onto

2 me

this is where nice guys finish....

and the not so nice.......

well they just end up with a hip replacement

Like prince said on the 'Let's Work' 12' song- "Hard dick and bubblegum is all you'll get"

fck all that nice guy shit begging for some ass!

[Edited 10/8/11 13:50pm]

i dont know why - but this reminds me of u Jedi

[Edited 10/8/11 14:08pm]

I feel that I am right in between bad boy & good guy. I don't know how I pull it off, but I do. You can be edgy & sensitive at the same time. I'm a huge fan of chivalry, but at the same time, I'll beat a guys ass for disrespecting my lady in a heartbeat. I think that women want to feel safe & that's why they go for the "bad boy", which I find funny, because some of the bad boy types are some of the biggest bitches I know. ..

namepeace said:

dJJ said:

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Edited 10/7/11 14:10pm]

It's not exclusive for males. There are "nice girls" too. They get into a 12-step program for their love-addiction. Or Codependancy.

Men could do that too.

Agreed.

I agree with the article The "great guy" description is what I want and need to meet, instead I keep getting..not the "nice" guys but the "I'm a grown ass man" guy. The "I'm a grown ass man" guy are the men who are so quick to proclaim that they are "real" men and that they have "grown ass men" things to do which supposedly differentiates them from men who act like "little boys" when all the while, having to say that you are a "grown ass men" is in actuality covering up the fact that you really are a "little ass boy". You get it?

I need a man who is not only respectable and a gentleman, but like what someone else said, defend their woman if they are every disrespected by someone, whether it be a man or a woman. For example, the last guy I dated, I let go because he had a big lack of balls...yet proclaimed that he was a "grown ass man" yeah right. He invited me to see him bowl with his bowling team which included an ex girlfriend. However, when the ex girlfriend showed up she went off into a jealous rage because I was there. She was extremely disrespectful towards me and while I looked at her while she made a complete fool of herself, he just stood there and did absolutley nothing. This broad, who was supposed to be in her mid 40's mind you, even went through her cell phone and proceeded to show me a picture of him and her. I was like, wow...I've never and I mean NEVER been through something or been treated like this before. The whole situation was uncomfortable as hell and he didn't even tell her to shut the fuck up, that I was his guest and that she needed to chill the fuck out, nothing. It was obvious to me that either he was still fucking with her, used me to make her jealous, or just wasn't as "grown" as he had proclaimed to be...or all of the above. So I chose to remove him, and all his fucking drama out of my life. The great thing was that I had only dated him for a month and a half, so I didn't waste a whole lot of time on him.

But to continue, as the article says, a man who LEADS is very much what is wanted and needed by most women. No woman wants a man who doesn't plan ahead and just calls on wilm to make plans at the last minute. That makes us feel like we are only and will most likely only play the role of being his "option". No I deserve to be a priority (see my sig) and I refuse to settle to be some man's option if I deserve to be a priority.

missfee said:

No woman wants a man who doesn't plan ahead and just calls on wilm to make plans at the last minute. That makes us feel like we are only and will most likely only play the role of being his "option". No I deserve to be a priority (see my sig) and I refuse to settle to be some man's option if I deserve to be a priority.

Deadflow3r said:

I don't think anybody should be "nice".

All the threads I am on are taking me to the same place! Steve Jobs had a wonderful life but he was not "nice" he was unpleasant when he felt the need to be.

I think that we "nice" people cause our own fate by not looking at both sides of our own ying/yang personality. I think we need to make friends with our own dark side and be honest about it. I don't think that we should be dark characters all of the time but completely trying to suppress it can lead to passive aggressive behavior, depression, overeating and a host of problems. This is all my opinion from what I observed. I have plenty of pleasant friends who are on anti depressants and are obese. (Time to give my inner skinny bitch her say. I may not let her speak to others but I at least must let her speak to me).

Yep. Being nice is definitely an act. Usually to get people to like us. There seems to be a societal rule that to be liked you have to be nice.

ConsciousContact said:

Deadflow3r said:

I don't think anybody should be "nice".

All the threads I am on are taking me to the same place! Steve Jobs had a wonderful life but he was not "nice" he was unpleasant when he felt the need to be.

I think that we "nice" people cause our own fate by not looking at both sides of our own ying/yang personality. I think we need to make friends with our own dark side and be honest about it. I don't think that we should be dark characters all of the time but completely trying to suppress it can lead to passive aggressive behavior, depression, overeating and a host of problems. This is all my opinion from what I observed. I have plenty of pleasant friends who are on anti depressants and are obese. (Time to give my inner skinny bitch her say. I may not let her speak to others but I at least must let her speak to me).

Yep. Being nice is definitely an act. Usually to get people to like us. There seems to be a societal rule that to be liked you have to be nice.

True.

I think people in the end prefer someone who is honest about how they feel and where they are coming from. You don't want to be around someone who takes great glee in being a superbitch but you also don't want to be patronized by someone who can't stand to anger anyone or disapoint. You want to say, "I am a big girl I can take it, just tell me the truth."

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Edited 10/7/11 14:10pm]

"They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders..." Hell, what other kind of women are there?

THIS article says it all, regardless of nationality!

http://www.dumpyourwifeno...can-women/

Adisa said:

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

[Edited 10/7/11 14:10pm]

"They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders..." Hell, what other kind of women are there?

THIS article says it all, regardless of nationality!

http://www.dumpyourwifeno...can-women/

Is all I have to say about your article.

missfee said:

Adisa said:

"They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders..." Hell, what other kind of women are there?

THIS article says it all, regardless of nationality!

http://www.dumpyourwifeno...can-women/

Is all I have to say about your article.

Funny, since even my wife admitted that she agrees with most of it. But, of course she can't agree with ALL of it...because, you know, she's a better person than the author.

[Edited 10/9/11 15:52pm]

FuzzyWitch said:

i dont know why - but this reminds me of u Jedi

...so maybe I should start buttoning up my shirts at the office again...?

PurpleJedi said:

...so maybe I should start buttoning up my shirts at the office again...?

I've read a lot of articles on askmen and I'm going to tell you - do not listen to that website! In general it's a bunch of idiocy.

I will say this article has some merits, but I don't like their defintions. What they are decribing as a great guy is exactly what I'd call a nice guy. What they are describing as a nice guy is a pushover. If it helps to change the terms to understand, I guess that that makes sense, but just know when women say they want a nice guy, they are talking about the "great guy" description.

Adisa said:

namepeace said:

A provocative, less reasonable piece on the martyrdom syndrome for "Nice Guys." I read this years ago and never forgot it.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

"They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders..." Hell, what other kind of women are there?

THIS article says it all, regardless of nationality!

http://www.dumpyourwifeno...can-women/

Obviously the whole "can't stereotype" point comes at play here...but the author does make some solid (if not entirely palateable) points.

CarrieMpls said:

I've read a lot of articles on askmen and I'm going to tell you - do not listen to that website! In general it's a bunch of idiocy.

I will say this article has some merits, but I don't like their defintions. What they are decribing as a great guy is exactly what I'd call a nice guy. What they are describing as a nice guy is a pushover. If it helps to change the terms to understand, I guess that that makes sense, but just know when women say they want a nice guy, they are talking about the "great guy" description.

Nice guys might finish last but they are the first to get the divorced women when those women have gotten fed up with how their husbands behave.

novabrkr said:

Nice guys might finish last but they are the first to get the divorced women when those women have gotten fed up with how their husbands behave.

....really now...

namepeace said:

Adisa said: