Let the geek flag fly!!!!!!!!

The original plan for the Battle of Endor was supposed to be Wookies taking down the Empire. But after introducing Chewie as the first mate of the Falcon and establishing that he was somewhat "technologically advanced", Lucas decided against using Wookies as he wanted the Empire to be taken down by primitives. He cut the Wookies in half and called them Ewoks.

Nowadays Lucas tries to say he always knew about the Vader-Luke-Leia connection, but that is not true. It may have been on his mind, but it was not set in stone.

From the ESB annotated screenplay:

In the first draft, during his training Luke calls Ob-Wan; Ben appears and explains what has happened to him since he was struck by Vader. He is now in a different part of the universe. Ben says that he has brought someone else with him, and Luke's father appears. He is described as a tall, fine-looking man and is referred to as Skywalker. Skywalker tells Luke that he has a sister but he wont reveal where she is for fear that Vader might then be able to find her. Thhis concept of Luke's sister was discussed during story conferences: the idea was that Luke's father had twin children and took one of them to an uncle and the second one to the other side of the universe so that if one was killed the other would survive. It was suggested that Luke's sister would be going through training at the same time that he was and become a Jedi Master as well. Eventually, in another episode, the story would deal with both Luke and his sister as Jedi Knights. The idea of Vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft of the ESB script.

[Edited 9/4/11 19:57pm]

I fuckin' hate those who hate the ewoks and the Ewoks vs Clones "battle"...

the ewoks were cute but also strong and agressive, they destroyed a SMALL detachment of imperial clone troops, not the entire army; they had the help of Han and other rebels, and they started to win the "battle" ONLY when Chewie stole that AT and when the other ATs finally arrived to the area where those deadly traps were prepared.

of course they won that SMALL battle against those overconfident, lazy imperial troops. The real, big battle was being fought in the space anyway...

the SW saga didn't jump the shark with ROTJ, fuck no, not even with Jar Jar. Despite the flaws the prequel trilogy doesn't have a single moment of "jumping the shark", unlilke Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull which is full of "jump the shark/nuke the fridge" moments.

I know that I sound like a crazy Prince fan defending albums like Planet Earth or 20Ten, lol

[Edited 9/5/11 8:35am]

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[Edited 9/5/11 17:54pm]

uPtoWnNY said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

as 4 the originals here is a improvement , ditch fucking hayden christian at the end of ROTJ because u don't see eqan mcgregor appearing at the end do u? and another change would be 2 get rid of the damn ewoks as this elite bad ass set of creatures that can take down stormtroopers. it still cracks me up 2 this day that those furry bastards were able 2 overtake trained military clones. uggghhh

so what other "new" deleted scene are there 2 watch?

Wookies would have made more sense than those stupid teddy bears. That's when Star Wars "jumped the shark".

I refuse to buy into all these 'improvements'. I have the originals on VHS, which is good enough for me.

totally would have liked the wookies instead of the ewoks, tho i can see the "kinship" but warriors? get the fuck out of here lol

Militant said:

For me its about the way the viewer is treated in that scene...its a seninal moment, arguably THE seminal defining moment if you consider the 2 trilogies are in fact Anakins story. This moment was the peak of perfection before in what it represented and how it was portrayed.

Now It changes the whole tone of the scene completely...the original version, in case you haven't seen it, has Vader move to the Emperors side in silence seemingly turning his back on his son... and then he looks at his son being killed, back at his master killing his son...then he makes his choice in silence, lunges at his master without warning and kills him.

The new version inserts the "noooo, nooooo" for no real reason and it changes the tone completely turning Vaders decision from a deadly and unexpected strike like a snake into sonething more akin to a textbook, paint by numbers "hmmm I'm conflicted" moment that you see in a 1000 movies.

If it had been in the originals then it wouldn't been out if place, you'd have expected it as the done thing but it was more 'adult' before...kinda like going back and deciding the mona Lisa needed eyebrows afterall because you might not know it's a face without them

L4OATheOriginal said:

Actually the change to Christian makes sense...the Jedi who was at one with the force died looking like Hayden , just as obi wan died looking like Guiness....even if you take into consideration that maybe Vader/anakin repossessed the Jedi qualities at the end....he never looked like the spirit you see standing there in the originals. Those, I believe, are meant to represent the untarnished Jedi form

purpledoveuk said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

as 4 the originals here is a improvement , ditch fucking hayden christian at the end of ROTJ because u don't see eqan mcgregor appearing at the end do u?>

Actually the change to Christian makes sense...the Jedi who was at one with the force died looking like Hayden , just as obi wan died looking like Guiness....even if you take into consideration that maybe Vader/anakin repossessed the Jedi qualities at the end....he never looked like the spirit you see standing there in the originals. Those, I believe, are meant to represent the untarnished Jedi form

ur post has merit however from Luke's perspective, he never knew what anakin looked like or we are led 2 belive and the only time he sees his father's face is when he pulls off the mask in the death star. so in that vision, wouldn't u be like "who the hell is that guy standing next 2 yoda?"

L4OATheOriginal said:

I would argue that was the only reason they kept Shaw as old Anakin...so the viewer didn't wonder who it was. It makes no sense how he's aged with a beautiful head of hair. Perhaps you can choose how you look but then why would kenobi choose tO have a toupe
[Edited 9/6/11 11:58am]

L4OATheOriginal said:

purpledoveuk said:

L4OATheOriginal said: Actually the change to Christian makes sense...the Jedi who was at one with the force died looking like Hayden , just as obi wan died looking like Guiness....even if you take into consideration that maybe Vader/anakin repossessed the Jedi qualities at the end....he never looked like the spirit you see standing there in the originals. Those, I believe, are meant to represent the untarnished Jedi form

ur post has merit however from Luke's perspective, he never knew what anakin looked like or we are led 2 belive and the only time he sees his father's face is when he pulls off the mask in the death star. so in that vision, wouldn't u be like "who the hell is that guy standing next 2 yoda?"

Yes, plus vadar redeems himself with such conviction that even though he is injured he is able to defeat the emperor. so I would say he was more at one with the force than he was as young Anakin, who was hugely conflicted.

StonedImmaculate said:

Let the geek flag fly!!!!!!!!

The original plan for the Battle of Endor was supposed to be Wookies taking down the Empire. But after introducing Chewie as the first mate of the Falcon and establishing that he was somewhat "technologically advanced", Lucas decided against using Wookies as he wanted the Empire to be taken down by primitives. He cut the Wookies in half and called them Ewoks.

Nowadays Lucas tries to say he always knew about the Vader-Luke-Leia connection, but that is not true. It may have been on his mind, but it was not set in stone.

From the ESB annotated screenplay:

In the first draft, during his training Luke calls Ob-Wan; Ben appears and explains what has happened to him since he was struck by Vader. He is now in a different part of the universe. Ben says that he has brought someone else with him, and Luke's father appears. He is described as a tall, fine-looking man and is referred to as Skywalker. Skywalker tells Luke that he has a sister but he wont reveal where she is for fear that Vader might then be able to find her. Thhis concept of Luke's sister was discussed during story conferences: the idea was that Luke's father had twin children and took one of them to an uncle and the second one to the other side of the universe so that if one was killed the other would survive. It was suggested that Luke's sister would be going through training at the same time that he was and become a Jedi Master as well. Eventually, in another episode, the story would deal with both Luke and his sister as Jedi Knights. The idea of Vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft of the ESB script.

[Edited 9/4/11 19:57pm]

Yeah it seems like Lucas pokes fun at himself even, when Luke and Ben are talking and Luke says (and I am paraphrasing here)

"you said Vadar killed my father"

and Ben replies "he did, in a manner of speaking"

and Luke says "In a manner of speaking?!?!"

I remember the audience laughing at that, as if to acknowledge Lucas' patch over the hole in the script

[Edited 9/6/11 12:13pm]

I dont know if you go back and watch A New Hope and focus on Ben and the conversation in his hut and bout the lightsaber Alex plays the scenes very much like hes holding something back. Lucas left it vague enough that I think the Father/Son was in play. Its just too good of a storyline, if you buy that Lucas had all 3 sets of movies already mapped out.

I think the whole Luke/Leia attraction was just a ploy to make the reveal much more shocking.

lazycrockett said:

I dont know if you go back and watch A New Hope and focus on Ben and the conversation in his hut and bout the lightsaber Alex plays the scenes very much like hes holding something back. Lucas left it vague enough that I think the Father/Son was in play. Its just too good of a storyline, if you buy that Lucas had all 3 sets of movies already mapped out.

I think the whole Luke/Leia attraction was just a ploy to make the reveal much more shocking.

hear hear!

NDRU said:

Is it that the original versions are not available anymore? I don't own these on DVD.

you should be able to find the OT on DVD in their orginal cuts. Well almost... I am not sure what lines that have been added or changed over the years are in them.

(such as "close the blast doors....open the blast doors" or C3PO's extended discription of how to shut off the tractor beam or if the tractor beam has English letters or aurebesh.

or is ESB is R2 Lucky he got out of there or if he is luck he dosn't taste good...)

but they are for the most part the unchanged orginals (Star Wars craw just says Star Wars...no Episode IV no A New Hope as it was when it first came out.

I saw all three at target a few weeks ago.

lazycrockett said:

I dont know if you go back and watch A New Hope and focus on Ben and the conversation in his hut and bout the lightsaber Alex plays the scenes very much like hes holding something back. Lucas left it vague enough that I think the Father/Son was in play. Its just too good of a storyline, if you buy that Lucas had all 3 sets of movies already mapped out.

I think the whole Luke/Leia attraction was just a ploy to make the reveal much more shocking.

and the look he gives R2 when he says "I do not recall ever OWNING a droid"

and Ben's look when Han is braging about the Kessel Run in 18-parsecs (Sorry the lame explnation if the Anderson books was just stupid... Han was blowing smoke and Ben KNEW it!)

StonedImmaculate said:

Yeah...the only reason Im buying the BR is for the Episode IV-VI deleted scenes.

Pisses me off though...I cant tell you how much money Lucas has made off of me!!!

many of them were released on a CDROM about 15 years ago,

lazycrockett said:

I dont know if you go back and watch A New Hope and focus on Ben and the conversation in his hut and bout the lightsaber Alex plays the scenes very much like hes holding something back. Lucas left it vague enough that I think the Father/Son was in play. Its just too good of a storyline, if you buy that Lucas had all 3 sets of movies already mapped out.

I think the whole Luke/Leia attraction was just a ploy to make the reveal much more shocking.

certainly could be, though that is just speculation, just as my "lucas poking fun at himself" theory is

imago said:

OMG, this thread is gay now.

which brings me to yoda's best line "But now we must eat. Come, good food, come...."

Cerebus said:

dannyd5050 said:

No, he doesn't....

Betcha I can find one where he does.

the only thing i remember from the comic was that they botched the color of Luke's saber when Vader is inspecting it on 'endor'

lazycrockett said:

I dont know if you go back and watch A New Hope and focus on Ben and the conversation in his hut and bout the lightsaber Alex plays the scenes very much like hes holding something back. Lucas left it vague enough that I think the Father/Son was in play. Its just too good of a storyline, if you buy that Lucas had all 3 sets of movies already mapped out.

I think the whole Luke/Leia attraction was just a ploy to make the reveal much more shocking.

Interpretation can twist how you want with the other movies in existence now, but back when Star Wars was the only planned movie and Lucas entire career was at stake, he rewrote it to where Vader killed Luke's father. That look by Ben is because he taught the killer Vader everything he knew and it's freakin an unhonorable embarrassment to the once great old man. Not only that, but now this once legendary warrior was also living and dressing like a crazy begger in the wilds on the lam. And Leia was most definetely written to NOT be related to Luke, and was his unrequited love interest from first sight of the hologram. Lucas basically wrote that universe into a very strongly structured diamond of perfection out of fear that the whole enterprise would come across as ridiculous unless it was all really developed and thought out. So he worked it to be seamless and tight. That's the only movie where the Star Wars universe actually seems big, and that it takes time to get anywhere, and you have sense of distance, and that people are meeting each other by chance (and are not related in one big happy family inside some Chuck E Cheese type universe with tons of wacky creatures all out of proportion).

I also remember my 5th grade heart sinking a little bit when I saw the big stupid looking teeth and then the appearance of the ridiculous looking giant space slug in Empire (after that schlocky stomach set that looked as convincing as the old star trek tv show). Empire had big problems for me due to him not sweating too much. I didn't come out of the theater with the same sense of wonder at a realistic feeling universe.

When I was in 3rd grade I thought it was so cool that they wuld talk about a "dragon" or you would see the bones of a big monster but not see it alive in some fake looking way. That was so classy and artistically sound. And it was not because of Lucas' free will. It was because of budget restrictions on his free will, and that led to greatness.

Back then in 3rd grade, I saw Star Wars 6 times in the theater, read the novel about 4 times, had the marvel comic adaptation, and even had the book of artwork by Joe Johnston (who now directs things like "Captain America"). I was reading all the Starlogs, Fantastic Films, and articles. I was a Star Wars fanatic as a little kid. And I saw those re-introductions of his old ideas of familial relations as very weak and forced as the series went on into the new ones. I could buy Darth Vader's revelation as Luke's father (even if Lucas changed his mind after Star Wars, which I believe he has admitted somewhere) because that scene was done in a great way in Empire. But by the time Returd of the Jedi came out... it was all gone to shit. Only the score and some of the effects were good in that third movie. In the new ones, bringing C3P0 and R2D2 back as if they were part of the cute family was offensive. Then they brought in the brief appearance of Chewie. Oh god. That is bad stuff. Shrink that once vast fictional universe down to a tiny Chuck E Cheese.

I think I'll go watch Close Encounters.... oh shit... Speilberg revised that masterpiece only two years after it opened and messed it up... at least he didn't do ET... oh shit, he did CG ET.

I think UFOclub is correct that the Father bit was cooked up when drafting Empire.

on and next up Star Wars 3D

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Feb 2012...In case you didn't know

what annoys the shit out of me is he is editing a different director's film.

of the original trilogy, lucas only directed a new hope. empire was directed by irvin kershner, jedi was directed by richard marquand.

it's why those two movies are better than anything lucas directed: new hope, and all the awful prequels.

as a director, he should absolutely be ashamed of himself for editing other director's work, producer/co-writer or not.

[Edited 9/6/11 23:46pm]

lazycrockett said:

Cerebus said:

Honestly - and I mean really, being 100% truthful - I liked him better than Hayden "I'm a piece of cardboard" Christensen.

Well that gets into the whole Lucas who doesnt direct his actors. If I recall all the cast basically said that Lucas didn't offer any suggestions or opinions on how scenes should be acted. Ewan and Natalie had more experience and more leeway with what they could do, while Hayden who can actually act if directed was basically left up to figure out Anakins fall from grace. Let's be honest the script really doesn't make all that much of a deal bout it either.

totally. hayden was actually really good in other movies like life as a house and shattered glass

cborgman said:

what annoys the shit out of me is he is editing a different director's film.

of the original trilogy, lucas only directed a new hope. empire was directed by irvin kershner, jedi was directed by richard marquand.

it's why those two movies are better than anything lucas directed: new hope, and all the awful prequels.

as a director, he should absolutely be ashamed of himself for editing other director's work, producer/co-writer or not.

[Edited 9/6/11 23:46pm]

So, you agree with me that A New Hope sucks then, right?

I just find it dreadful. I never liked it. But again, I saw it on cable after I saw Empire in the movie theater, so to me, Empire was the ultimate intro to the Star Wars universe.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

imago said:

OMG, this thread is gay now.

which brings me to yoda's best line "But now we must eat. Come, good food, come...."

cborgman said:

what annoys the shit out of me is he is editing a different director's film.

of the original trilogy, lucas only directed a new hope. empire was directed by irvin kershner, jedi was directed by richard marquand.

it's why those two movies are better than anything lucas directed: new hope, and all the awful prequels.

as a director, he should absolutely be ashamed of himself for editing other director's work, producer/co-writer or not.

[Edited 9/6/11 23:46pm]

Lucas took it back to old Hollywood where the Producer was actually in creative control. That's how movies were before the time of "auteur" movies in the 60's til now. The producer was the creative force (the architect/designer). The director was just like a foreman on a construction crew. You can bet they had little say in the story, the edit, the look, etc. Lucas even directed some of the scenes without those guys present. He's rumored to have directed a lot more scenes in Return of the Jedi including those between Vader, Luke, and the Emperor.

You can easily judge by watching those guys other movies to see what they probably brought to the table.

imago said:

cborgman said:

what annoys the shit out of me is he is editing a different director's film.

of the original trilogy, lucas only directed a new hope. empire was directed by irvin kershner, jedi was directed by richard marquand.

it's why those two movies are better than anything lucas directed: new hope, and all the awful prequels.

as a director, he should absolutely be ashamed of himself for editing other director's work, producer/co-writer or not.

[Edited 9/6/11 23:46pm]

So, you agree with me that A New Hope sucks then, right?

I just find it dreadful. I never liked it. But again, I saw it on cable after I saw Empire in the movie theater, so to me, Empire was the ultimate intro to the Star Wars universe.

i wouldnt say it sucks, but it's not as good as empire or jedi. for one thing, lucas cant direct actors. that's why everyone is so wooden in the 4 he directed and not in the 2 he didnt. storywise, i also like empire and jedi much more

cborgman said:

imago said:

So, you agree with me that A New Hope sucks then, right?

I just find it dreadful. I never liked it. But again, I saw it on cable after I saw Empire in the movie theater, so to me, Empire was the ultimate intro to the Star Wars universe.

i wouldnt say it sucks, but it's not as good as empire or jedi. for one thing, lucas cant direct actors. that's why everyone is so wooden in the 4 he directed and not in the 2 he didnt. storywise, i also like empire and jedi much more

Fuck is wrong with you two?

A New Hope is awesome, Empire Strikes Back is even better, and every other Star Wars movie after that sucks to varying degrees.

Period.

ufoclub said:

cborgman said:

what annoys the shit out of me is he is editing a different director's film.

of the original trilogy, lucas only directed a new hope. empire was directed by irvin kershner, jedi was directed by richard marquand.

it's why those two movies are better than anything lucas directed: new hope, and all the awful prequels.

as a director, he should absolutely be ashamed of himself for editing other director's work, producer/co-writer or not.

[Edited 9/6/11 23:46pm]

Lucas took it back to old Hollywood where the Producer was actually in creative control. That's how movies were before the time of "auteur" movies in the 60's til now. The producer was the creative force (the architect/designer). The director was just like a foreman on a construction crew. You can bet they had little say in the story, the edit, the look, etc. Lucas even directed some of the scenes without those guys present. He's rumored to have directed a lot more scenes in Return of the Jedi including those between Vader, Luke, and the Emperor.

You can easily judge by watching those guys other movies to see what they probably brought to the table.

as a writer/director, if a producer ever re-edits my stuff without my permission, i will rip their face off. if they do it to a make a scene worse (like the "NOOOO" example in jedi) i will rip their face off and feed it to my cat.

most of the changes dont bother me, but that change is the work of a person who doesnt trust the strength of the scene or the intelligence of the audience, despite 30 years of audiences clearly getting it.

it's a very dumb and unneeded change and also really undermines the scene in ways that open up a credibility gap that wasnt there before. why wouldnt the emperor hear that and turn and look and then attack vader?

Efan said:

cborgman said:

i wouldnt say it sucks, but it's not as good as empire or jedi. for one thing, lucas cant direct actors. that's why everyone is so wooden in the 4 he directed and not in the 2 he didnt. storywise, i also like empire and jedi much more

Fuck is wrong with you two?

A New Hope is awesome, Empire Strikes Back is even better, and every other Star Wars movie after that sucks to varying degrees.

Period.

i like jedi despite its several flaws. the heart that movie has makes up for a lot.

if lucas wants to "fix" star wars movies, he should re-write, re-shoot, and re-edit big portions of those soulless and tedious prequels and get them anywhere near par of even new hope