JustErin said:

Sorry but when I read articles like this I have to roll my eyes.

These dudes always proclaim themselves as "nice guys" and when a woman doesn't want them they claim they want what they feel is the opposite of them - the "bad boy"

Well, here's what I've experienced. These so called "nice guys" were nice, sure...but they were also pussies, and insecure and uninteresting and a whole bunch of other unattractive things. But oh no, it can't be them that's the problem. It's women.

Let's be honest here. Nice guys end up in relationships. Women do want nice dudes - with the whole package. They don't want jerks, and certainly not whiny bitches like this guy comes off as.

Nice guys don't finish last, wallowing pussies do.

Sorry, Erin, but the truth is probably somewhere in between you and this guy. Not because women are inherently evil, but because, like guys, they have some growing up to do. You're telling me you've never met or known not even one woman who passed over "whole package" nice guys for bad boys? I'd have a hard time believing that.

On the other hand, there's some truth to what you're saying. I'd venture to say that a woman doesn't want a guy who stakes his entire "fairy tale" ideal on her, or is unsure of himself in one way or another, or otherwise pursues her while ignoring reality because, darn it, he's just such a good guy that she won't be able to refuse.

There are tons of gray areas, but some of what men and women say about each other is true, because in the end, we're human beings with our different sets of flaws.

namepeace said:

Even if nice guys finish last in love . . . they finish.

Love is not a race to be won. Love me some Pat Benatar, but it's no battlefield either. True love requires clear eyes and a deep commitment. But I digress.

A lot of folks find their ways into relationships more easily than others. But speaking from the experience of a so-called "nice guy," there is a little truth to what the author says. But it has less to do with women as a whole as it does the maturation process. ON BOTH SIDES.

robertlove had it right; age plays a factor. Younger women's choices in men over time are reflective of their maturation process. What they seek is in line with where they are and what they expect: attractiveness, confidence, flash, etc.

But the hypothetical "nice guy" does that as well: he seeks the "yang" to his "yin," the OneWhoLightsUpTheRoom, etc. He believes that he's groomed himself (or been groomed) to be the GuySheReallyNeeds, and believes friendship is a true path to love.

The problem is that neither the nice guys nor the women they're drawn to have much experience in making a relationship work: honesty, communication, intimacy, work. So they put themselves through trials and errors that will help them ultimately find a decent relationship. But both the nice guys and the lovely gals have growing up to do.

Getting from A to B for some of us m en and women (and more than a few times for still more of us) is a process of highs and lows, great memories and painful lessons, but Lord willing, we learn and improve and finish the process successfully.

Somebody's been reading Paul again.

Maybe there is some truth to the 'women don't like nice guys' theory, but to be fair, the same thing can be said about men and the women they choose.

I've been passed over plenty of times for 'bad girls' - women bitchier, or more likely to put out easily, or both.

JustErin said:

Sorry but when I read articles like this I have to roll my eyes.

These dudes always proclaim themselves as "nice guys" and when a woman doesn't want them they claim they want what they feel is the opposite of them - the "bad boy"

Well, here's what I've experienced. These so called "nice guys" were nice, sure...but they were also pussies, and insecure and uninteresting and a whole bunch of other unattractive things. But oh no, it can't be them that's the problem. It's women.

Let's be honest here. Nice guys end up in relationships. Women do want nice dudes - with the whole package. They don't want jerks, and certainly not whiny bitches like this guy comes off as.

Nice guys don't finish last, wallowing pussies do.

JustErin said:

That's exactly what I am telling you. A nice dude that has the whole package will always win. A guy who is hot, interesting and yeah...a jerk will win over a wimpy, uninteresting self proclaimed "nice guy" every time. But again, the great guy who has it all gets the girl every time over the other two types. Ok, so there are exceptions to every rule, but it's certainly not a large amount of women dating assholes exclusively simply because they are assholes.

I'm not trying to generalize. And I do understand that sometimes the NG's need to look in the mirror and analyze what they're doing.

But you beg the question of what you mean by wimpy and/or uninteresting.

Lammastide said:

Somebody's been reading Paul again.

a lot of that came from "reading" myself, so to speak.

I'm psyched by all the great replies.

Yeah, the author seems a bit on the "bitter" side...but I thought that there are valid points to some of what he said.

More specifically, I found it interesting what he said about a man (presumably the boring yet dependable nice guy) having to "die" by suffering a horrible heartbreak in order to "live again" and emerge as the confident, interesting, douchebag-ish man that will get JustErin's phone number.

What do you all think about THAT? (Not the JustErin bit...the "dying" part, ) Are men who've suffered a heartbreak more viable? Will that make us more interesting somehow?

some people like drama, women who continually go after those guys who treat them badly get LOADS of drama.

Just as these jerks are damaged in some ways (perhaps by previous relationships, perhaps their mother died when they were little, perhaps their dad was a serial philanderer and they never learned how to treat women with respect, who knows), the women who want them are too. Younger people often try out a variety of approaches as they mature. Those who don't learn from their experiences and make the mistake over and over again, probably have some deep seated issues that need to be addressed professionally.

It's sad to me that the media perpetuates as desirable the "bad boy". Young women growing up and impressionable buy into it, hoping to feel the thrill and excitement mixed signals can give them. I'm talking the interested one day, cool the next kind of treatment (men can learn how to behave this way - give insults disguised as compliments, use her insecurity to your gain, google "how to get any woman to sleep with you" )

I also wonder to what part the alpha male theory comes into play? We don't have packs or tribes with strong alpha males looking after them any more, we have other status indicators in modern times. A guy (read "jerk" ) who has many women, who sows his seed far and wide, may have more desirable genetics.

I'd also take a guess that younger women aren't navigating through the love battlefield with their their heads just yet, and amongst their peers, having a guy with certain indicators of status brings them up higher socially too. Having a guy, who can have ANYONE but chooses HER, can give instant cred… for a while, of course, until her heart shatters. And she probably thinks she is the special one who can tame him maturity and wisdom comes with experience. Plus excitement win trounce security, love, adoration, kindness etc when you're young.

The jerk might also be HOT. Don't forget looks, charisma, sexual chemistry ALL pay a huge role in making a woman forget her head in a moment of lust. Don't underestimate basic human biology and mating rituals

And again, ALL women are NOT looking for a BAD BOY

[Edited 6/27/11 23:34pm]

ZombieKitten said:

The jerk might also be HOT. [Edited 6/27/11 23:34pm]

this is the key

guys constantly fall for the wrong girl because she is pretty, so why shouldn't women?

NDRU said:

ZombieKitten said:

The jerk might also be HOT.

this is the key

guys constantly fall for the wrong girl because she is pretty, so why shouldn't women?

it's all about getting good genes for your sprog

I don't believe nice guys always finish last and while i find the OP's statement about the nice guy part dying and being reborn as a jerk...I'd caution guys against that--just because you run into a bad situation doesn't mean all will be bad; and usually when a guy adopts that mentality; he shuts himself off from finding a good lady; cause a good woman will not put up with a jerk for too long, if at all.

ZombieKitten said:

NDRU said:

this is the key

guys constantly fall for the wrong girl because she is pretty, so why shouldn't women?

it's all about getting good genes for your sprog

Yeah...thats the core essence of it.

sweething said:

I don't believe nice guys always finish last and while i find the OP's statement about the nice guy part dying and being reborn as a jerk...I'd caution guys against that--just because you run into a bad situation doesn't mean all will be bad; and usually when a guy adopts that mentality; he shuts himself off from finding a good lady; cause a good woman will not put up with a jerk for too long, if at all.

PurpleJedi said:

I'm psyched by all the great replies.

Yeah, the author seems a bit on the "bitter" side...but I thought that there are valid points to some of what he said.

More specifically, I found it interesting what he said about a man (presumably the boring yet dependable nice guy) having to "die" by suffering a horrible heartbreak in order to "live again" and emerge as the confident, interesting, douchebag-ish man that will get JustErin's phone number.

What do you all think about THAT? (Not the JustErin bit...the "dying" part, ) Are men who've suffered a heartbreak more viable? Will that make us more interesting somehow?

I think everyone has to "die" otherwise we wouldnt know when we found the "nice" guy or not.. Nor would we know what we "dont" want in a relationship without going thru some crappy ones in the process...

A person also learns from mistakes.. If a girl breaks up with a guy because he is uncaring, or goes out all the time or whatever, usually when the girl breaks it off they tell the guy "your a jerk because..." And if he really wants to be in a genuine relationship he will pay attention and learn...

As far as being with a bad boy goes, I think every woman needs to do it to get it outta her system, so she learns what she DOESNT want in a long term relationship, and if shes dumb enough to put up with it then she obviously has some self esteem issues and may have been treated like shit her whole life...

tinaz said:

I think everyone has to "die" otherwise we wouldnt know when we found the "nice" guy or not.. Nor would we know what we "dont" want in a relationship without going thru some crappy ones in the process...

A person also learns from mistakes.. If a girl breaks up with a guy because he is uncaring, or goes out all the time or whatever, usually when the girl breaks it off they tell the guy "your a jerk because..." And if he really wants to be in a genuine relationship he will pay attention and learn...

As far as being with a bad boy goes, I think every woman needs to do it to get it outta her system, so she learns what she DOESNT want in a long term relationship, and if shes dumb enough to put up with it then she obviously has some self esteem issues and may have been treated like shit her whole life...

nice guys finish 1st with me. (big mistake to put friends before ur lady.)

PurpleJedi said:

I came across this article and, , damn.

A wise man once told me, "As a man, you have to die once in order to live." I never fully appreciated his advice, nor did I understand it until I experienced it firsthand. From that time on, I understood the origins of the Jerk vs. Nice Guy battle.

Readers may be asking themselves, "What in the world is this guy talking about?" Well, I'm referring to the widely known fact that women habitually date men that are jerks while the "nice" guys are often left twiddling their thumbs in solitaire. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Figuratively speaking, in order for a man to enjoy the company of women and be able to seduce them, his inner nice guy must first die through heartache. It is at this point that his inner bad boy surfaces and goes on the prowl.

Any man that has experienced true love, only to have his heart crushed by the woman that he thought he would spend his life with, will understand what I am talking about. A man that has never experienced the heartache of being burned by the one person he really trusted probably won't understand my commentary. In any case, it is important to understand why nice guys finish last and why they probably always will.

[edited for compliance]

The fact is that women generally don't want nice guys, or maybe they're too busy chasing after jerks to realize that they do. Why? Because women act on impulse and emotion rather than fact. Who do you suppose brings out these same irrepressible emotions in women? The jerks, of course.

So what does this all add up to? No one wants to get hurt, but in the same instance, no one wants to be perceived as a jerk either. That is why it's important to have a balanced attitude towards relationships. A man has to be able to court a woman, amuse her and excite her while continuously remaining a challenge.

In other words, be nice to women, but remember who comes first in life; you, your irreplaceable family and friends, and then your woman. By following my theory, women will constantly be in hot pursuit

So is there truth to this theory?

A nice guy needs to get his heart broken to be able to become the "jerk" that women crave?

I know that the replies to this will vary depending on gender (), and I realize that it stereotypes and oversimplifies the issue.. but STILL it makes one wonder.

Full article here; http://www.askmen.com/dat...ton15.html

Hey, PJ. Hope you're doin' well.

Garry Shandling once said, "Nice guys finish first. If you don't know that, then you don't know where the finish line is."

I was a nice guy in my "yoot" and played the jerk for a time. I can tell you this:

If your goal is to sleep with insecure women, jerk is the way to go. If you're hoping to establish a long-term, meaningful relationship with an intelligent, emotionally-mature woman, you'll be looking for one who's looking for a nice guy (interestingly, I've found that a lot of older women have learned their lesson and stop chasing the bad boys).

If you've read many of my posts here, you'll know that I'm a firm believer that people are happiest on their own (if they can see through what Daniel Gilbert calls "The belief-transmission game", that is).

Whatever your journey, may The Force be with you.

Ace

JustErin said:

Sorry but when I read articles like this I have to roll my eyes.

These dudes always proclaim themselves as "nice guys" and when a woman doesn't want them they claim they want what they feel is the opposite of them - the "bad boy"

Well, here's what I've experienced. These so called "nice guys" were nice, sure...but they were also pussies, and insecure and uninteresting and a whole bunch of other unattractive things. But oh no, it can't be them that's the problem. It's women.

Let's be honest here. Nice guys end up in relationships. Women do want nice dudes - with the whole package. They don't want jerks, and certainly not whiny bitches like this guy comes off as.

Nice guys don't finish last, wallowing pussies do.

Can I get an AMEN?

Ace said:

Ace said:

PurpleJedi said:

I came across this article and, , damn.

So is there truth to this theory?

A nice guy needs to get his heart broken to be able to become the "jerk" that women crave?

I know that the replies to this will vary depending on gender (), and I realize that it stereotypes and oversimplifies the issue.. but STILL it makes one wonder.

Full article here; http://www.askmen.com/dat...ton15.html

Hey, PJ. Hope you're doin' well.

Garry Shandling once said, "Nice guys finish first. If you don't know that, then you don't know where the finish line is."

I was a nice guy in my "yoot" and played the jerk for a time. I can tell you this:

If your goal is to sleep with insecure women, jerk is the way to go. If you're hoping to establish a long-term, meaningful relationship with an intelligent, emotionally-mature woman, you'll be looking for one who's looking for a nice guy (interestingly, I've found that a lot of older women have learned their lesson and stop chasing the bad boys).

If you've read many of my posts here, you'll know that I'm a firm believer that people are happiest on their own (if they can see through what Daniel Gilbert calls "The belief-transmission game", that is).

Whatever your journey, may The Force be with you.

Ace

Aside from people being happier alone (I think one can be perfectly happy either alone or coupled) I couldn’t agree more.

A lot of it has to do with maturity, on both sides.

Empress said:

XxAxX said:

sorry but this is a flawed overgeneralization.

Very flawed.

At a young age I was involved with the "bad boy". He was abusive, unfaithful and degraded me for 2 years. When I finally left him, I hooked up with a guy my own age, cute and nice. I married this guy. He treats me with much respect and kindness and does everything he can to make me happy and show his love. Because he didn't have the fast sportscar, money or fancy clothes, my friends told me to dump him, but I knew better. If you think with your heart and not your head or wallet, it will usually lead you in the right direction. We have been married for almost 23 years and have traveled all over together. He is my rock!

[Edited 6/27/11 10:09am]

CarrieMpls said:

Ace said:

Hey, PJ. Hope you're doin' well.

Garry Shandling once said, "Nice guys finish first. If you don't know that, then you don't know where the finish line is."

I was a nice guy in my "yoot" and played the jerk for a time. I can tell you this:

If your goal is to sleep with insecure women, jerk is the way to go. If you're hoping to establish a long-term, meaningful relationship with an intelligent, emotionally-mature woman, you'll be looking for one who's looking for a nice guy (interestingly, I've found that a lot of older women have learned their lesson and stop chasing the bad boys).

If you've read many of my posts here, you'll know that I'm a firm believer that people are happiest on their own (if they can see through what Daniel Gilbert calls "The belief-transmission game", that is).

Whatever your journey, may The Force be with you.

Ace

Aside from people being happier alone (I think one can be perfectly happy either alone or coupled) I couldn’t agree more.

A lot of it has to do with maturity, on both sides.

Yeah...maturity is EVERYTHING really.

JustErin said:

Sorry but when I read articles like this I have to roll my eyes.

These dudes always proclaim themselves as "nice guys" and when a woman doesn't want them they claim they want what they feel is the opposite of them - the "bad boy"

Well, here's what I've experienced. These so called "nice guys" were nice, sure...but they were also pussies, and insecure and uninteresting and a whole bunch of other unattractive things. But oh no, it can't be them that's the problem. It's women.

Let's be honest here. Nice guys end up in relationships. Women do want nice dudes - with the whole package. They don't want jerks, and certainly not whiny bitches like this guy comes off as.

Nice guys don't finish last, wallowing pussies do.

haha. what the fuck is a nice guy who isn't a pussy or a whiny bitch?

the word 'nice' is a lie. let's call it what it is: ugly.

if you're good looking enough, you don't need to learn manners.

women have ZERO interest in 'nice' until they go bankrupt or get knocked or beaten up by a bad boy. fact.

Absolute myth.

Nice guys don't finish last...they do come in second though.

whistle said:

JustErin said:

Sorry but when I read articles like this I have to roll my eyes.

These dudes always proclaim themselves as "nice guys" and when a woman doesn't want them they claim they want what they feel is the opposite of them - the "bad boy"

Well, here's what I've experienced. These so called "nice guys" were nice, sure...but they were also pussies, and insecure and uninteresting and a whole bunch of other unattractive things. But oh no, it can't be them that's the problem. It's women.

Let's be honest here. Nice guys end up in relationships. Women do want nice dudes - with the whole package. They don't want jerks, and certainly not whiny bitches like this guy comes off as.

Nice guys don't finish last, wallowing pussies do.

haha. what the fuck is a nice guy who isn't a pussy or a whiny bitch?

the word 'nice' is a lie. let's call it what it is: ugly.

if you're good looking enough, you don't need to learn manners.

women have ZERO interest in 'nice' until they go bankrupt or get knocked or beaten up by a bad boy. fact.

HotGritz said:

Absolute myth.

Nice guys don't finish last...they do come in second though.

Is it wrong to want a good man....with a naughty side to him? Or is the more proper word...mischeivous?

tinaz said:

PurpleJedi said:

I'm psyched by all the great replies.

Yeah, the author seems a bit on the "bitter" side...but I thought that there are valid points to some of what he said.

More specifically, I found it interesting what he said about a man (presumably the boring yet dependable nice guy) having to "die" by suffering a horrible heartbreak in order to "live again" and emerge as the confident, interesting, douchebag-ish man that will get JustErin's phone number.

What do you all think about THAT? (Not the JustErin bit...the "dying" part, ) Are men who've suffered a heartbreak more viable? Will that make us more interesting somehow?

I think everyone has to "die" otherwise we wouldnt know when we found the "nice" guy or not.. Nor would we know what we "dont" want in a relationship without going thru some crappy ones in the process...

A person also learns from mistakes.. If a girl breaks up with a guy because he is uncaring, or goes out all the time or whatever, usually when the girl breaks it off they tell the guy "your a jerk because..." And if he really wants to be in a genuine relationship he will pay attention and learn...

As far as being with a bad boy goes, I think every woman needs to do it to get it outta her system, so she learns what she DOESNT want in a long term relationship, and if shes dumb enough to put up with it then she obviously has some self esteem issues and may have been treated like shit her whole life...

A lot of what the women say here is true about men. But I think what the author says is true as well.

Some so-called "bad boys" are not born. Some are made. When those men undergo that emotional "death," due to the ending of a relationship (or a rejected bid for a relationship that never was), they change. They become the opposite, to get the next woman that they want, OR, to go an a revenge crusade, making other women pay. For some men, this only comes after several such "deaths."

What you're saying applies to a lot of men too. Even the good ones can draw positives from getting their guts ripped out. But checking themselves is part of the process.

PurpleJedi said:

whistle was getting at what John Cusack's character said in High Fidelity: men have to learn to punch their weight.