LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

4 real shaq is and was very one dimmensional. take away shaq's ability 2 dunk and shot 5ft or less jumpers in the paint and what do u have? belive me his total pts scored wouldn't have been as high. when u look at the other great centers of the NBA/ABA history, they could do so many other things that shaq was never capable of doing. Hakeem was shooting all over the place, he could be a dominat force in the clutch. same with ewing, malone, kareem and so on. teams used shaq's ability and size 2 fit their teams needs.

Y'all are killin me with this Shaq stuff. No one ranks Jack Sikma up high cause of his vast post moves. And did y'all atch Shaq in Orlando and LA? You couldn't have. The onlt weaknes in his game was free throw shooting.

and it's also because of his free throw shooting that proves he couldn't do what the other great centers of all time have done. kareem's sky hooks weren't 2 feet from the basket, hakeem's shots weren't always 5 ft from the basket, ewing took foul line jumpers and so own. The majority of shaq's shots were so close 2 the basket.

The great thing about the NBA is that it's produced so many transcendent players that you could make a legitimate top 20 list from a pool of about 30-35 players. And it can change from day to day, year to year, etc.

My 20, in rough order?

Jordan

Kareem

Magic

Wilt

Bird

Big O

West

Russell

Kobe

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Baylor

Havilcek

Duncan

Shaq

Pettit

Hakeem

Karl Malone

Barkley

Cousy

Flaws abound, but this list is interchangeable, especially from 1-5. Most arguments against this list are good ones because there are so many great players to choose from.

namepeace said:

The great thing about the NBA is that it's produced so many transcendent players that you could make a legitimate top 20 list from a pool of about 30-35 players. And it can change from day to day, year to year, etc.

My 20, in rough order?

Jordan

Kareem

Magic

Wilt

Bird

Big O

West

Russell

Kobe

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Baylor

Havilcek

Duncan

Shaq

Pettit

Hakeem

Karl Malone

Barkley

Cousy

Flaws abound, but this list is interchangeable, especially from 1-5. Most arguments against this list are good ones because there are so many great players to choose from.

I'd love 2 see Pippen play defense against most of this list.

Graycap23 said:

I'd love 2 see Pippen play defense against most of this list.

His series-long job against Magic in the 1991 Finals was legendary. As a Laker fan, I still think he got away with a HECKUVA lot, but no one had ever played such suffocating defense against Magic, only 1 year removed from an MVP season.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

I'd love 2 see Pippen play defense against most of this list.

His series-long job against Magic in the 1991 Finals was legendary. As a Laker fan, I still think he got away with a HECKUVA lot, but no one had ever played such suffocating defense against Magic, only 1 year removed from an MVP season.

Took Magic out of the series. Some of the best defense I've even seen.

He played a one man zone agianst the Lakers when he was in Portland that one year. If Portland manages 2 score in the 4th quater, they go 2 the Finals that year instead of the Lakers (getting therr 1st title on the route 2 a 3 peat.)

L4OATheOriginal said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said: Y'all are killin me with this Shaq stuff. No one ranks Jack Sikma up high cause of his vast post moves. And did y'all atch Shaq in Orlando and LA? You couldn't have. The onlt weaknes in his game was free throw shooting.

and it's also because of his free throw shooting that proves he couldn't do what the other great centers of all time have done. kareem's sky hooks weren't 2 feet from the basket, hakeem's shots weren't always 5 ft from the basket, ewing took foul line jumpers and so own. The majority of shaq's shots were so close 2 the basket.

Wilt was a terrible free throw shooter too. He's still in the top 5.

Ao\pril Fools was months ago.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

and it's also because of his free throw shooting that proves he couldn't do what the other great centers of all time have done. kareem's sky hooks weren't 2 feet from the basket, hakeem's shots weren't always 5 ft from the basket, ewing took foul line jumpers and so own. The majority of shaq's shots were so close 2 the basket.

Wilt was a terrible free throw shooter too. He's still in the top 5.

Ao\pril Fools was months ago.

You must have bought 20 copies of Shaq Fu.

phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Wilt was a terrible free throw shooter too. He's still in the top 5.

Ao\pril Fools was months ago.

You must have bought 20 copies of Shaq Fu.

Never played Shaq Fu in my life, I was a Barklet Shut Up man my self.

But this issome downright nonsense I'm hearing about Shaq, nonsense I say. Barley top 20 is an insultt to the NBA.

Dude was voted a top 50 player in 1996, after his 4th season for crying out loud, easily the youngest of that group. Pippen and Robinson were both 5 years his senior.

On all-time list, dude is rarley out the top 10 and if he is it's closer to 11 than 20.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

His series-long job against Magic in the 1991 Finals was legendary. As a Laker fan, I still think he got away with a HECKUVA lot, but no one had ever played such suffocating defense against Magic, only 1 year removed from an MVP season.

Took Magic out of the series. Some of the best defense I've even seen.

He played a one man zone agianst the Lakers when he was in Portland that one year. If Portland manages 2 score in the 4th quater, they go 2 the Finals that year instead of the Lakers (getting therr 1st title on the route 2 a 3 peat.)

He played at an MVP level in Portland that season. And you're dead on; that quarter changed the course of the league for some time thereafter. Had the Blazers won that game Pippen may be an undisputed top-30 player today.

namepeace said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

4 real shaq is and was very one dimmensional. take away shaq's ability 2 dunk and shot 5ft or less jumpers in the paint and what do u have? belive me his total pts scored wouldn't have been as high. when u look at the other great centers of the NBA/ABA history, they could do so many other things that shaq was never capable of doing. Hakeem was shooting all over the place, he could be a dominat force in the clutch. same with ewing, malone, kareem and so on. teams used shaq's ability and size 2 fit their teams needs.

Y'all are killin me with this Shaq stuff. No one ranks Jack Sikma up high cause of his vast post moves. And did y'all atch Shaq in Orlando and LA? You couldn't have. The onlt weaknes in his game was free throw shooting.

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

namepeace said:

He played at an MVP level in Portland that season. And you're dead on; that quarter changed the course of the league for some time thereafter. Had the Blazers won that game Pippen may be an undisputed top-30 player today.

Pippen is top 30 all time. MJ didn't do it on his own. The Bulls won 57 games in 93, the next season with Jordan playin baseball, they lost 3 less games and if not for a contraversal call vs the Knicks, make the Finals. MJ has never got passed the first round without pippen.

The Bulls lost to The Knicks in the semi-finals.

Unless you were meant they were one call away from the conf. finals.

I just had to clarify.

I don't think Pippen cracks top 30 either.

Abdul said:

minneapolisFunq said:

minneapolisFunq said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

namepeace said: Pippen is top 30 all time. MJ didn't do it on his own. The Bulls won 57 games in 93, the next season with Jordan playin baseball, they lost 3 less games and if not for a contraversal call vs the Knicks, make the Finals. MJ has never got passed the first round without pippen.

The Bulls lost to The Knicks in the semi-finals.

Unless you were meant they were one call away from the conf. finals.

I just had to clarify.

I don't think Pippen cracks top 30 either.

Bias badge: Scottie is in my top 30 4 sho.

Abdul said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said: Y'all are killin me with this Shaq stuff. No one ranks Jack Sikma up high cause of his vast post moves. And did y'all atch Shaq in Orlando and LA? You couldn't have. The onlt weaknes in his game was free throw shooting.

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Shaq is 12th in total rebounds, behind Moses, Hakeem and several power forwards and smaller centers like Wes Unseld who was like 6'8". Like I said, top 20. But it all depends on when you started following the game. For the younger crowd, Shaq-Fu is the man.

[Edited 6/17/11 7:22am]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

namepeace said:

He played at an MVP level in Portland that season. And you're dead on; that quarter changed the course of the league for some time thereafter. Had the Blazers won that game Pippen may be an undisputed top-30 player today.

Pippen is top 30 all time. MJ didn't do it on his own. The Bulls won 57 games in 93, the next season with Jordan playin baseball, they lost 3 less games and if not for a contraversal call vs the Knicks, make the Finals. MJ has never got passed the first round without pippen.

MJ didn't get where he got alone. One caveat, though. Jordan didn't make it out of round 1 in the 3 seasons he played before Pip, one of those 1st round exits came at the hands of the 1986 Celtics, one of the greatest teams there ever was.

The 1993-94 season was probably Phil Jackson's greatest coaching jobs and one of Pip's finest seasons. They were robbed in that series. But Pip's refusal to go into that playoff game hurt his rep and still does.

A strong argument can be made for Pip being top 30, but it would be a no-brainer IF he'd won a title in 93-94, 99-00, or with Houston's Big 3.

I wish he'd accepted Phil's entreaties to join LA. He'd have maybe 10 rings.

Abdul said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

L4OATheOriginal said: Y'all are killin me with this Shaq stuff. No one ranks Jack Sikma up high cause of his vast post moves. And did y'all atch Shaq in Orlando and LA? You couldn't have. The onlt weaknes in his game was free throw shooting.

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Several top 50 (and one or two top-5) players were suspect on defense. As for his inability to defend the pick-and-roll, I think that was the only area where his size hurt him. Sometimes the roller was simply too small/quick, and sometimes he could just breathe on the roller and draw a whistle.

I think effort is the common denominator. When Shaq wanted to, he could defend with the best of them (he tied the Finals record in '01 with 8 blocks in a game). His presence in the middle of the defense was by itself a huge deterrent for opposing teams. Not saying he didn't lapse on defense, but sometimes teams were so scared to go at him he didn't have to play defense. That's the best defense of all!

In any event, the Lakers haven't figured out the pick-and-roll in nearly 30 years, no matter who's out there!

namepeace said:

Abdul said:

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Several top 50 (and one or two top-5) players were suspect on defense. As for his inability to defend the pick-and-roll, I think that was the only area where his size hurt him. Sometimes the roller was simply too small/quick, and sometimes he could just breathe on the roller and draw a whistle.

I think effort is the common denominator. When Shaq wanted to, he could defend with the best of them (he tied the Finals record in '01 with 8 blocks in a game). His presence in the middle of the defense was by itself a huge deterrent for opposing teams. Not saying he didn't lapse on defense, but sometimes teams were so scared to go at him he didn't have to play defense. That's the best defense of all!

In any event, the Lakers haven't figured out the pick-and-roll in nearly 30 years, no matter who's out there!

Exactly. Once L.A. figures that out, they'll be officially back in the ball game. Sometimes a pick and roll is much more important than a wild three pointer.

uPtoWnNY said:

Abdul said:

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Shaq is 12th in total rebounds, behind Moses, Hakeem and several power forwards and smaller centers like Wes Unseld who was like 6'8". Like I said, top 20. But it all depends on when you started following the game. For the younger crowd, Shaq-Fu is the man.

[Edited 6/17/11 7:22am]

Yep, if your in your early to mid 20's Shaq is your center no doubt!

namepeace said:

Abdul said:

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Several top 50 (and one or two top-5) players were suspect on defense. As for his inability to defend the pick-and-roll, I think that was the only area where his size hurt him. Sometimes the roller was simply too small/quick, and sometimes he could just breathe on the roller and draw a whistle.

I think effort is the common denominator. When Shaq wanted to, he could defend with the best of them.

That last sentence is why Moses and Hakeem are better than Shaq, they ALWAYS wanted to on defense.

Of course there were better big men than Shaq obviously lol

Abdul said:

namepeace said:

Several top 50 (and one or two top-5) players were suspect on defense. As for his inability to defend the pick-and-roll, I think that was the only area where his size hurt him. Sometimes the roller was simply too small/quick, and sometimes he could just breathe on the roller and draw a whistle.

I think effort is the common denominator. When Shaq wanted to, he could defend with the best of them.

That last sentence is why Moses and Hakeem are better than Shaq, they ALWAYS wanted to on defense.

Actually, I agree. See Reply No. 20 from yesterday, June 16.

Some people seem to be missing a really basic point; Shaq took a vast majority of his shots because NOBODY COULD STOP HIM FROM GETTING THERE! That's why he's considered one of the very few most dominant players to ever play the game. Why would he need to change anything about his game, such as learning different shots or moves, when NOBODY COULD STOP WHAT HE WAS DOING?! The guy won four rings and went to the finals more times than that. Clearly he was doing something right.

Two "like I said"s...

First, I can't compare Shaq to centers from another time, only the ones he actually played against. In that regard he is easily top five. Maybe top three. Reasonable?

Second, yes, the free throw issues is major. He would have scored a few thousand more points if he had averaged even 70% for his career.

uPtoWnNY said:

Abdul said:

I gotta question if you watched him because free throw shooting wasn't Shaq's only weakness, he was sometimes suspect on D too LBC, he never did figure out how to defend the pick-n-roll and to echo what Uptown said he was at times lazy out there.

Shaq is 12th in total rebounds, behind Moses, Hakeem and several power forwards and smaller centers like Wes Unseld who was like 6'8". Like I said, top 20. But it all depends on when you started following the game. For the younger crowd, Shaq-Fu is the man.

[Edited 6/17/11 7:22am]

Shaq was a great rebounder, we know about Moses missing like 8 shots in a row just to beef up his stats.

What about Shaq with more career blocks and more All-NBA defensive teams. I thought Moses was the more superior defender. Moses is not even in the top 20.

What about Shaq 15 All-Star games to Moses 12?

His 14 All-NBA Teams to Moses 8

His 3 All-Defensive Teams to Moses 2

His 4 NBA Titles/3 Finals MVPs to Moses 1 and 1

Moses does have 3 MVP awards rto Shaq's 1.

Here is another stat, Moses Malone shot under %50 for his career, as a center. Shaq's low for a season was %55. His career is %58.

Compared to the other great centers, only Bill Russell's is lower. Jabbar, Hakeem, Wilt are all higher than Moses.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shaq is 12th in total rebounds, behind Moses, Hakeem and several power forwards and smaller centers like Wes Unseld who was like 6'8". Like I said, top 20. But it all depends on when you started following the game. For the younger crowd, Shaq-Fu is the man.

[Edited 6/17/11 7:22am]

Shaq was a great rebounder, we know about Moses missing like 8 shots in a row just to beef up his stats.

What about Shaq with more career blocks and more All-NBA defensive teams. I thought Moses was the more superior defender. Moses is not even in the top 20.

What about Shaq 15 All-Star games to Moses 12?

His 14 All-NBA Teams to Moses 8

His 3 All-Defensive Teams to Moses 2

His 4 NBA Titles/3 Finals MVPs to Moses 1 and 1

Moses does have 3 MVP awards rto Shaq's 1.

Here is another stat, Moses Malone shot under %50 for his career, as a center. Shaq's low for a season was %55. His career is %58.

Compared to the other great centers, only Bill Russell's is lower. Jabbar, Hakeem, Wilt are all higher than Moses.

Dominance. Folks have short term memories. Can't remember more than the last few seasons where Shaq was a shadow of his former self. Dude dominated. Period.

I was thinking... ....Instead of just putting up a list of the top 20 players in NBA history, what about listing my top five lineups at each position?

Here's my all NBA first team:

Bill Russell PF

Larry Bird SF

Wilt Chamberlain C

Earvin "Magic" Johnson PG

Michael Jordan SG

Here's my all NBA second team:

Karl Malone PF

Julius Erving SF

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar C

John Stockton PG

Kobe Bryant SG

This is my all NBA third team:

Tim Duncan PF

Scottie Pippen SF

Hakeem Olajuwon C

Oscar Robertson PG

Jerry West SG

This is my all NBA fourth team:

Elgin Baylor PF

Rick Barry SF

Shaquille O'Neal C

Pete Maravich PG

George Gervin SG

And this is my all NBA fifth team:

Dirk Nowitzki PF

Dominique Wilkins SF

Patrick Ewing C

Isiah Thomas PG

Clyde Drexler SG

[Edited 6/17/11 19:06pm]

^^^ I like your second team. That team would be a blast to watch at all positions. On the first team, while I see the talent, I'm not sure there'd be enough ball to go around.

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

*** Please let there be no NBA work stoppage. ***

.....

728huey said:

I was thinking... ....Instead of just putting up a list of the top 20 players in NBA history, what about listing my top five lineups at each position?

Here's my all NBA first team:

Bill Russell PF

Larry Bird SF

Wilt Chamberlain C

Earvin "Magic" Johnson PG

Michael Jordan SG

Here's my all NBA second team:

Karl Malone PF

Julius Erving SF

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar C

John Stockton PG

Kobe Bryant SG

This is my all NBA third team:

Tim Duncan PF

Scottie Pippen SF

Hakeem Olajuwon C

Oscar Robertson PG

Jerry West SG

This is my all NBA fourth team:

Elgin Baylor PF

Rick Barry SF

Shaquille O'Neal C

Pete Maravich PG

George Gervin SG

And this is my all NBA fifth team:

Dirk Nowitzki PF

Dominique Wilkins SF

Patrick Ewing C

Isiah Thomas PG

Clyde Drexler SG

[Edited 6/17/11 19:06pm]

I'll do a top 5 by position.

PG:

Magic

Oscar

Thomas

Stockton

Walt Frazier

SG:

Jordan

Kobe

West

Drexler

Iverson

(no way is Pistol Pete anywhere near this team)

SF:

Bird

Baylor

Doc J

Hondo

Rick Barry

PF:

Duncan

Pettit

Barkley

Malone

Garnett

C:

Wilt

Russell

Lew Alcindor

Shaq

Dream

[Edited 6/17/11 21:55pm]

Cerebus said:

First, I can't compare Shaq to centers from another time, only the ones he actually played against. In that regard he is easily top five. Maybe top three. Reasonable?

Ummmm...no. Wilt, Russell and Kareem are the holy trinity of NBA centers. After them, there's everyone else, in whatever order you want. Like I said earlier, opinions are based on when you started following the sport. I just get ticked when I hear NBA fans dismiss the league history before Magic & Bird.