phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

No doubt he wasn't complete, but he was holding his own, sometime even outperforming those three in head to head battles.

And Hakeem didn't school Shaq, he schooled Robinson. Hakeem was better than him that series, he didn't ake him his son like he did David.

namepeace said:

SCNDLS said:

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

Some people have considered Dirk a top-5 PF for the last half-decade, true, but as someone implied earlier, he couldn't surpass Garnett for a while, and the talk of his greatness was greatly hampered by his performance in the Finals 5 years ago. Now most everybody is on Dirk's bandwagon.

I've loved Dirk's game for almost a decade, and he and Deron Williams are my 2 favorite players in the league to watch, hands down. But he's been dogged by the "soft" talk and not being able to close (though he's dethroned Kobe's Lakers and Big Fundy's Spurs in the last 5 years). The point was, winning a title strips away any doubt about Dirk's place as a top half of top 50 player. And LBJ winning a title will similarly elevate LBJ's standing.

Honestly, I think he settles somewhere in the top 20 when he's done. Don't know where yet. He could win another title and that would put him even higher.

I agree he needs another title to be in that company.

phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

He really didn't develop his offensive game until after he left ORL.

phunkdaddy said:

namepeace said:

Some people have considered Dirk a top-5 PF for the last half-decade, true, but as someone implied earlier, he couldn't surpass Garnett for a while, and the talk of his greatness was greatly hampered by his performance in the Finals 5 years ago. Now most everybody is on Dirk's bandwagon.

I've loved Dirk's game for almost a decade, and he and Deron Williams are my 2 favorite players in the league to watch, hands down. But he's been dogged by the "soft" talk and not being able to close (though he's dethroned Kobe's Lakers and Big Fundy's Spurs in the last 5 years). The point was, winning a title strips away any doubt about Dirk's place as a top half of top 50 player. And LBJ winning a title will similarly elevate LBJ's standing.

Honestly, I think he settles somewhere in the top 20 when he's done. Don't know where yet. He could win another title and that would put him even higher.

I agree he needs another title to be in that company.

That is the top of the top, don't even know if two titles will get him to that level.

How many titmes has Dirk bee the best player in the league, or even the face of the NBA? They have players with either more MVPs or more titles that want reach that level, not hating on Dirk but I just don't see him there.

phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

Steamrolling was all Shaq needed to do in his prime.

Hakeem styled on the Magic but I don't know if he necessarily "schooled" Shaq

Shaq averaged 28 pts per game and rebounded the ball just was well as the dream.

I would argue that lack of experience had a lot to do with it.

namepeace said:

SCNDLS said:

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

Some people have considered Dirk a top-5 PF for the last half-decade, true, but as someone implied earlier, he couldn't surpass Garnett for a while, and the talk of his greatness was greatly hampered by his performance in the Finals 5 years ago. Now most everybody is on Dirk's bandwagon.

I've loved Dirk's game for almost a decade, and he and Deron Williams are my 2 favorite players in the league to watch, hands down. But he's been dogged by the "soft" talk and not being able to close (though he's dethroned Kobe's Lakers and Big Fundy's Spurs in the last 5 years). The point was, winning a title strips away any doubt about Dirk's place as a top half of top 50 player. And LBJ winning a title will similarly elevate LBJ's standing.

Honestly, I think he settles somewhere in the top 20 when he's done. Don't know where yet. He could win another title and that would put him even higher.

I think his performance in the playoffs gave him a national stage to showcase his growth which is why folks all up on his nuts now. His game changed drastically after '05 but because he didn't have the extra support and role players that he's got now the repeated early exits from playoff contention kept people from taking him seriously. But other players and those who watch him regularly knew what he was working with.

But I agree, if he gets another ring, he'll be top 20 fa sho.

SCNDLS said:

I think his performance in the playoffs gave him a national stage to showcase his growth which is why folks all up on his nuts now. His game changed drastically after '05 but because he didn't have the extra support and role players that he's got now the repeated early exits from playoff contention kept people from taking him seriously. But other players and those who watch him regularly knew what he was working with.

But I agree, if he gets another ring, he'll be top 20 fa sho.

Indeed.

Before 2006, I thought he was a great talent.

After 2006, when his Mavs closed out the Spurs in 7, I thought he had the makings of a great.

Now, I'm glad he's getting his full belated due.

His game is such that he could play another 3-5 peak years in Dallas or elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if he got another one.

minneapolisFunq said:

phunkdaddy said:

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

Steamrolling was all Shaq needed to do in his prime.

Hakeem styled on the Magic but I don't know if he necessarily "schooled" Shaq

Shaq averaged 28 pts per game and rebounded the ball just was well as the dream.

I would argue that lack of experience had a lot to do with it.

Shaq is one of the better centers of all time i just wouldn't rate him above Hakeem

and Moses. I would rate him 6 behind Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul Jabbar, Hakeem

and Moses.

namepeace said:

SCNDLS said:

I think his performance in the playoffs gave him a national stage to showcase his growth which is why folks all up on his nuts now. His game changed drastically after '05 but because he didn't have the extra support and role players that he's got now the repeated early exits from playoff contention kept people from taking him seriously. But other players and those who watch him regularly knew what he was working with.

But I agree, if he gets another ring, he'll be top 20 fa sho.

Indeed.

Before 2006, I thought he was a great talent.

After 2006, when his Mavs closed out the Spurs in 7, I thought he had the makings of a great.

Now, I'm glad he's getting his full belated due.

His game is such that he could play another 3-5 peak years in Dallas or elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if he got another one.

Correction: I meant '06

I've been averaging about 40 home/away games for the last 6 years plus watching him (and JKidd) since they first came here. He's sooooooo much better after 13 years (possibly getting better) and is relatively healthy so it's definitely possible to get another ring cuz they've got the blueprint now. And I don't see him playing anywhere else cuz he's not driven by money or he woulda left last year.

Mavs are about to do the top 10 list on Letterman right now

uPtoWnNY said:

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 30, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:15pm]

Shaq should be in the top 10. Switch Duncan with Shaq and I agree with LittleBLUECorvette - Oscar is too high.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

trueiopian said:

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

Onanother forum, they are saying he has passed Kevin Garnett?

SMDH!

namepeace said:

trueiopian said:

Um wow. Are you serious with the bolded?

Really? You don't think LeBron James is one of the most gifted athletes to ever play the game?

Okay.

But few who are serious about the subject would say otherwise.

Ever? No. But he's a talented basketball player.

728huey said:

trueiopian said:

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

I think it's safe to say that Dirk Nowitzki may be the greatest foreign-born player in NBA history. Vlade Divac was good, but he never won an NBA title. Drazen Petrovic could have been among the greats but tragically died in his prime. Toni Kukoc, Detlef Schrempf, Rik Smits, Luc Longley, and Peja Stoyakovic were all just role players. Yao Ming has been hurt too much, just like Arvydas Sabonis was before him, and while Tony Parker, Manu Ginnobli and Pau Gasol have all won multiple NBA titles, they weren't the main focal points of their teams. Dirk Nowitzki, however, is the heart and soul of the Mavericks and has been for several years. An argument could be made for Steve Nash , but his lack of an NBA title hurts his chances.

Hmmm, maybe. But what about Tim Duncan?

trueiopian said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Onanother forum, they are saying he has passed Kevin Garnett?

SMDH!

But hey, people put Moses Malone over Shaq, so I could see it.

phunkdaddy said:

minneapolisFunq said:

Steamrolling was all Shaq needed to do in his prime.

Hakeem styled on the Magic but I don't know if he necessarily "schooled" Shaq

Shaq averaged 28 pts per game and rebounded the ball just was well as the dream.

I would argue that lack of experience had a lot to do with it.

Shaq is one of the better centers of all time i just wouldn't rate him above Hakeem

and Moses. I would rate him 6 behind Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul Jabbar, Hakeem

and Moses.

I won't argue against that.

uPtoWnNY said:

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 30, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:15pm]

Where is Karl Malone?

trueiopian said:

uPtoWnNY said:

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 30, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:15pm]

Shaq should be in the top 10. Switch Duncan with Shaq and I agree with LittleBLUECorvette - Oscar is too high.

Just about.

1. Wilt

2. Jordan

3. Russell

4. Lew Alcindor

5. Bird

6. Magic

7. Shaq

8. Olajuwon

9. Duncan

10. Kobe

11. Robertson

12. West

13. Baylor (shows how special Baylor was, everyone above him has an MVP(s) and Title(s) he has none)

14. Dr. J

15. Moses

16. Pettit

17. Hondo

I can't compare players from different eras - just doesn't work for me. The game in the 60s was not the same as the game in the 80s. The game in the 80s wasn't the same as the game they play now. Different styles of play, players, rules, officiating, training, nutrition, etc. So for me its just a big basket of apples and oranges - no matter what order you put them in they really just aren't the same.

That being said, I can't argue with any of the players anybody has chosen as far as their greatness and importance goes. I just don't think you can compare the different eras of players to each other.

minneapolisFunq said:

uPtoWnNY said:

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 30, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:15pm]

Where is Karl Malone?

I have hi, around 20-25.

Cerebus said:

I can't compare players from different eras - just doesn't work for me. The game in the 60s was not the same as the game in the 80s. The game in the 80s wasn't the same as the game they play now. Different styles of play, players, rules, officiating, training, nutrition, etc. So for me its just a big basket of apples and oranges - no matter what order you put them in they really just aren't the same.

That being said, I can't argue with any of the players anybody has chosen as far as their greatness and importance goes. I just don't think you can compare the different eras of players to each other.

Troo dat.

I.E. If you transported Shaq to the 1950s he would average 100 points per game.

minneapolisFunq said:

Cerebus said:

I can't compare players from different eras - just doesn't work for me. The game in the 60s was not the same as the game in the 80s. The game in the 80s wasn't the same as the game they play now. Different styles of play, players, rules, officiating, training, nutrition, etc. So for me its just a big basket of apples and oranges - no matter what order you put them in they really just aren't the same.

That being said, I can't argue with any of the players anybody has chosen as far as their greatness and importance goes. I just don't think you can compare the different eras of players to each other.

Troo dat.

I.E. If you transported Shaq to the 1950s he would average 100 points per game.

There was no shot clock in the 50s, remeber. They's stall like they used to do to big George Mikan.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

minneapolisFunq said:

Troo dat.

I.E. If you transported Shaq to the 1950s he would average 100 points per game.

There was no shot clock in the 50s, remeber. They's stall like they used to do to big George Mikan.

Mikan still averaged 22 a game.

I'd give Shaq atleast 60 with no shot clock seeing how you would just give him the ball every single time and he would probably score within 10 seconds of backing down.

minneapolisFunq said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

There was no shot clock in the 50s, remeber. They's stall like they used to do to big George Mikan.

Mikan still averaged 22 a game.

I'd give Shaq atleast 60 with no shot clock seeing how you would just give him the ball every single time and he would probably score within 10 seconds of backing down.

Mikan averaged 25+ in a league that averaged about 70 points.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shaq over Hakeem Olajuwon & Moses Malone? Hell no.

I love Hakeem, (from Houston) but come on. Shaq's first game in the NBA was vs Robert Parish. He dropped 26/15 on the chief. Robert was still basically an All-Star wen Shaq was a rookie.

Against the main 3 centers of the 90s', Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. He more than held his own as a young fella. Hell, in the Finals, he gave a peak prime Hakeem more than he could handle, comparedto what Dream did in the Finals the previous season vs. Ewing and the West Finals vs. Robinson.

Shaq vs. Hakeem can go either way, but Shaq over Moses all the way.

And what about Oscar being so high? And I like Oscar.

Parish was an old man by the time of Shaq's 92-93 rookie season, he'd been in the league since 1977 LOL!!

Believe it or not that wasn't a prime Hakeem in those 95 finals, Hakeem was at his best from 87-93. He was on the downside of his carrer giving Shaq major WORK! Of course Shaq had the size advantage on him, so when he got close enough to the basket he could just lower his shoulder and bull his way to the rim but Hakeem always got his against Shaq on the other end.

A prime Moses Malone would not only get his points and rebs on a prime Shaq, but he'd also get him in foul trouble with his tactics under the basket and manage to stay outta foul touble himself because he rarely fouled out. Moses was a hard worker, he would wear Shaq out by games end!

Shaq in his prime - before injuries, before his size started breaking down his body faster than it would for a smaller player, before years of getting beat down every single night and his (IMO) lack of desire to give 100% after he won multiple rings - could dominate anybody. But only that Shaq. Only backboard destroying Shaq. Only scoring title winning Shaq. Only the Shaq that four guys would hit HARD and he would just swivel, drive through them and dunk (and NOT get the foul call). And that Shaq actually did play against most of the greats from the generation before him. Nearly all of them called him (and I do quote) "unstoppable". Unfortunately that Shaq didn't show up year after year after year like some of the other greatest of the great. Most of the time he was there, but not ALL of the time. And as the years went on it was clear that his body just wouldn't do everything his brain wanted it to do anymore.

On a side note, its still pretty amazing to look back on his career now that he's retired and compare what he did to all the other big men who have come and gone during that same period of time. Look at Yao Ming (who Shaq gave his seal of approval, which I dug), his body clearly can't support what he wants it to do, yet Shaq did basically the same thing for 15 straight years.

Still, even though I believe "that" Shaq would dominate almost anyone, I can't compare him to players from other eras. Because who knows how good they would have been if they played with the same training, rules, officiating, offensive schemes, etc. as Shaq did.

phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

4 real shaq is and was very one dimmensional. take away shaq's ability 2 dunk and shot 5ft or less jumpers in the paint and what do u have? belive me his total pts scored wouldn't have been as high. when u look at the other great centers of the NBA/ABA history, they could do so many other things that shaq was never capable of doing. Hakeem was shooting all over the place, he could be a dominat force in the clutch. same with ewing, malone, kareem and so on. teams used shaq's ability and size 2 fit their teams needs.

Abdul said:

Believe it or not that wasn't a prime Hakeem in those 95 finals, Hakeem was at his best from 87-93. He was on the downside of his carrer giving Shaq major WORK! Of course Shaq had the size advantage on him, so when he got close enough to the basket he could just lower his shoulder and bull his way to the rim but Hakeem always got his against Shaq on the other end.

A prime Moses Malone would not only get his points and rebs on a prime Shaq, but he'd also get him in foul trouble with his tactics under the basket and manage to stay outta foul touble himself because he rarely fouled out. Moses was a hard worker, he would wear Shaq out by games end!

PREACH THAT SHIT! Just check out rebounding numbers for Moses, Hakeem & Shaq. NOBODY worked harder than Mo'. I'm not hating on Shaq - great player, dominating offensive force, but compared to the dudes I've seen the past 40 years, he didn't play the position as well as they did. And I felt at times, Shaq got lazy and wasn't always in the best of shape. He could have been so much better. No crime in being top 20.

I can't believe some of the comments I'm reading about Oscar. My father would horse-whip some of y'all.

L4OATheOriginal said:

phunkdaddy said:

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

4 real shaq is and was very one dimmensional. take away shaq's ability 2 dunk and shot 5ft or less jumpers in the paint and what do u have? belive me his total pts scored wouldn't have been as high. when u look at the other great centers of the NBA/ABA history, they could do so many other things that shaq was never capable of doing. Hakeem was shooting all over the place, he could be a dominat force in the clutch. same with ewing, malone, kareem and so on. teams used shaq's ability and size 2 fit their teams needs.

Points win games. Nobody could stop him from dunking. If the object of the game is to put the ball in the hoop, how can he be faulted for being unstoppable? And depending on what rules they were playing under, he was a better than average defender, too. IMO the only thing thy guy can be faulted for was never imroving his free throw shooting.

L4OATheOriginal said: