uPtoWnNY said:

Now Jason Whitlock is running his mouth about the "Big 3". What an overreaction piece.

Whitlock shifted from LBJ's main handler being an idiot to him being a misunderstood visionary after spending time with him. He went from believing the Heat would inevitably win to breaking them up. He's been pretty much all over the map these playoffs.

I often think he has good things to say, he's gotten more provocative as time has gone on, but he was off base on this one. A hard cap or a second failed run will be the only things that would (or should) break this team up.

Cerebus said:

trueiopian said:

Reaching.

Lame.

A. You completely disregarded the point of the entire post.

B. You decided to selectively make half of the sentence/thought bold (his stats thus far show this to be a fact, btw, all he will need to do is win a few titles).

C. It was my opinion, that's whay it starts with "personally". There's no "reaching" involved.

A. I just bolded the part that stood out to me.

B. Stop whining.

C. You're reaching. Lebron James isn't even close to being one of the greatest.

trueiopian said:

Lebron James isn't even close to being one of the greatest.

That's not what Cerebus said. Cerebus said he could end up as one of the greatest. And he can if only because a title will change his perception greatly.

Dirk Nowitzki has been one of the 10 best players in this league for the better part of 10 years. Now he's been elevated by many as one of the top power forwards of all time. He didn't have many folks saying that until after the Mavs won the O'Brien.

The ceiling for James is extremely high. He is one of the most gifted basketball players there ever was. The same things he may need to do to improve his game are the same things he may need to do to win a title. And even with 1 title he'll ascend to the greatest ever list. He's a top 50 player, easy, but to get to the "big room," he's going to have to come up bigger.

That's all I think Cerebus said and he was right.

LeBron needs more time to grow anyways.

Timmy84 said:

LeBron needs more time to grow anyways.

I agree in terms of personal growth. Not many people's entire lives are judged by the time they hit 26.

namepeace said:

Timmy84 said:

LeBron needs more time to grow anyways.

I agree in terms of personal growth. Not many people's entire lives are judged by the time they hit 26.

Real true.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

SCNDLS said:

Now, that this season has a bow on it and it's a wrap, it's time to speculate on who can go all the way next year. Do you think the Dallas Mavericks has what it takes to repeat? If not, who are the contenders in your opinion?

I think the Mavs could actually repeat, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm a homer. They showed a lot of resilience all season long, especially after Caron AND Dirk were hurt earlier this year and they lost 6 in a row. Plus their performance throughout the playoffs was extraordinary IMO considering they were constantly playing from behind against younger teams who supposedly had more offensive weapons and better D.

I think the Mavs can do it again primarily because they will get back Caron Butler their 2nd highest scorer. That will be a HUGE help to Dirk and take the pressure off. As well as they did in the playoffs imagine if they had Caron's offensive contribution too. Also IF they re-sign Tyson Chandler, pay JJ Barea more than the $1.8 mil he got this year, get Kidd back, I don't see why they can't do it again.

The biggest threat in the West is the Lakers and I think there's too much uncertainty with the new coach and Kobe to say that's gonna be a lock. The Thunder could get it together but I think the Mavs would beat them again. As for the East, I'll say the Heat, provided they iron out their issues, could get back to the Finals again. So, I'm calling another Dallas vs. Miami finals in 2012.

Of course, everything is contigent on there not being a lockout next season.

The y played the entire half of the last season without Caron Butler, a proven all-star in this league. Also, Haywood has been missing since game 2 I believe, and Beadois is a nice player hadn;t played in the playoffs.

JJ reminds me of a young Nash when he was in Dallas. There only comp will be the Thunder.

Do not ignore Memphis. They proved they had the grit to knock off a veteran team and a talented young contender, beating the Spurs AND falling a game short against the Thunder. They had no wing scoring in the playoffs because Rudy Gay was hurt. If Gay finds his way in Lionel Hollins' system, they'll be very dangerous. I believe they'd have given DAL a better run this year than OKC did. They played with no fear and if they carry that momentum into the lockout-shortened season.

As for the Lakers, remember, they were worn out from 3 straight Finals runs. They'll be rested. They need some tweaking and/or a big move (for Howard and/or CP3). But they'll be good enough to contend.

namepeace said:

trueiopian said:

Lebron James isn't even close to being one of the greatest.

That's not what Cerebus said. Cerebus said he could end up as one of the greatest. And he can if only because a title will change his perception greatly.

Dirk Nowitzki has been one of the 10 best players in this league for the better part of 10 years. Now he's been elevated by many as one of the top power forwards of all time. He didn't have many folks saying that until after the Mavs won the O'Brien.

The ceiling for James is extremely high. He is one of the most gifted basketball players there ever was. The same things he may need to do to improve his game are the same things he may need to do to win a title. And even with 1 title he'll ascend to the greatest ever list. He's a top 50 player, easy, but to get to the "big room," he's going to have to come up bigger.

That's all I think Cerebus said and he was right.

Dirk has been considered one of the top power fowards all-time for the past 5 seasons or so.

I don't see Bron gettin' much better, he'll be in his 9th season whenever it starts up again. HE just needs to work on the little things like a mid-range jumper, and some post move. He needs to watch some Adrian Dantley films.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

namepeace said:

That's not what Cerebus said. Cerebus said he could end up as one of the greatest. And he can if only because a title will change his perception greatly.

Dirk Nowitzki has been one of the 10 best players in this league for the better part of 10 years. Now he's been elevated by many as one of the top power forwards of all time. He didn't have many folks saying that until after the Mavs won the O'Brien.

The ceiling for James is extremely high. He is one of the most gifted basketball players there ever was. The same things he may need to do to improve his game are the same things he may need to do to win a title. And even with 1 title he'll ascend to the greatest ever list. He's a top 50 player, easy, but to get to the "big room," he's going to have to come up bigger.

That's all I think Cerebus said and he was right.

Dirk has been considered one of the top power fowards all-time for the past 5 seasons or so.

I don't see Bron gettin' much better, he'll be in his 9th season whenever it starts up again. HE just needs to work on the little things like a mid-range jumper, and some post move. He needs to watch some Adrian Dantley films.

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

namepeace said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The y played the entire half of the last season without Caron Butler, a proven all-star in this league. Also, Haywood has been missing since game 2 I believe, and Beadois is a nice player hadn;t played in the playoffs.

JJ reminds me of a young Nash when he was in Dallas. There only comp will be the Thunder.

Do not ignore Memphis. They proved they had the grit to knock off a veteran team and a talented young contender, beating the Spurs AND falling a game short against the Thunder. They had no wing scoring in the playoffs because Rudy Gay was hurt. If Gay finds his way in Lionel Hollins' system, they'll be very dangerous. I believe they'd have given DAL a better run this year than OKC did. They played with no fear and if they carry that momentum into the lockout-shortened season.

As for the Lakers, remember, they were worn out from 3 straight Finals runs. They'll be rested. They need some tweaking and/or a big move (for Howard and/or CP3). But they'll be good enough to contend.

Yeah it would be suicide for teams in the Western Conference to assume the Lakers are done.

Kobe may be a little bit like Magic in turns of being hungry after failing in the playoffs. I agree with

you on Memphis too provided the owners can provide the cash to keep the team together. Yes

i think they would have given Dallas a better run than OKC because they were bigger up front too.

Rudy Gay is a baller. I like Lionel Hollins as a coach and loved him as a player with the Trailblazers and 76ers.

namepeace said:

trueiopian said:

Lebron James isn't even close to being one of the greatest.

That's not what Cerebus said. Cerebus said he could end up as one of the greatest. And he can if only because a title will change his perception greatly.

Dirk Nowitzki has been one of the 10 best players in this league for the better part of 10 years. Now he's been elevated by many as one of the top power forwards of all time. He didn't have many folks saying that until after the Mavs won the O'Brien.

The ceiling for James is extremely high. He is one of the most gifted basketball players there ever was. The same things he may need to do to improve his game are the same things he may need to do to win a title. And even with 1 title he'll ascend to the greatest ever list. He's a top 50 player, easy, but to get to the "big room," he's going to have to come up bigger.

That's all I think Cerebus said and he was right.

Um wow. Are you serious with the bolded?

SCNDLS said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Dirk has been considered one of the top power fowards all-time for the past 5 seasons or so.

I don't see Bron gettin' much better, he'll be in his 9th season whenever it starts up again. HE just needs to work on the little things like a mid-range jumper, and some post move. He needs to watch some Adrian Dantley films.

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

trueiopian said:

SCNDLS said:

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

Onanother forum, they are saying he has passed Kevin Garnett?

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 30, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:15pm]

uPtoWnNY said:

These young fans need to calm the fuck down research their NBA history. Dirk is great - when his career is done, I think he'll be Top 25, but he can't touch these guys(no one can) - they're the NBA immortals, IMO.

1) Wilt

2) Jordan

3) Russell

4) Oscar

5) Kareem

6) Magic

7) Bird

8) Hakeem

9) West

10) Duncan

11) Moses Malone

12) Kobe

13) Baylor

14) Havlicek

15) Petit

Most of these cats played in an NBA which was WAY more physical and less watered down by expansion.

Maybe I'm blind, but you're missing that big dude that retired a few weeks ago. And you have Oscar way too high.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Maybe I'm blind, but you're missing that big dude that retired a few weeks ago. And you have Oscar way too high.

You're not blind, and I didn't miss anything. Shaq is in the next five. He didn't play the center position better than the dudes I mentioned.

...and Oscar Robertson belongs right where he is, believe me.

uPtoWnNY said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Maybe I'm blind, but you're missing that big dude that retired a few weeks ago. And you have Oscar way too high.

You're not blind, and I didn't miss anything. Shaq is in the next five. He didn't play the center position better than the dudes I mentioned.

...and Oscar Robertson belongs right where he is, believe me.

Are you serious for both. Shaq is easily top 10. Don't even have to explain.

Robertson is right outside the top ten. You can't have Big O at 4 and Baylor and Pettit at 13 and 15. All three played in the same era and Pettit is the won with more MVPs and won a title beating Russell's Celtics (something Baylor and Robertson came up short on.)

Big O averaged a trip-dub, but Baylor one season averaged 39/20 and 5. And he's the same size as Oscar.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Are you serious for both. Shaq is easily top 10. Don't even have to explain.

Shaq over Hakeem Olajuwon & Moses Malone? Hell no.

trueiopian said:

SCNDLS said:

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

I think it's safe to say that Dirk Nowitzki may be the greatest foreign-born player in NBA history. Vlade Divac was good, but he never won an NBA title. Drazen Petrovic could have been among the greats but tragically died in his prime. Toni Kukoc, Detlef Schrempf, Rik Smits, Luc Longley, and Peja Stoyakovic were all just role players. Yao Ming has been hurt too much, just like Arvydas Sabonis was before him, and while Tony Parker, Manu Ginnobli and Pau Gasol have all won multiple NBA titles, they weren't the main focal points of their teams. Dirk Nowitzki, however, is the heart and soul of the Mavericks and has been for several years. An argument could be made for Steve Nash , but his lack of an NBA title hurts his chances.

uPtoWnNY said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Are you serious for both. Shaq is easily top 10. Don't even have to explain.

Shaq over Hakeem Olajuwon & Moses Malone? Hell no.

I love Hakeem, (from Houston) but come on. Shaq's first game in the NBA was vs Robert Parish. He dropped 26/15 on the chief. Robert was still basically an All-Star wen Shaq was a rookie.

Against the main 3 centers of the 90s', Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. He more than held his own as a young fella. Hell, in the Finals, he gave a peak prime Hakeem more than he could handle, comparedto what Dream did in the Finals the previous season vs. Ewing and the West Finals vs. Robinson.

Shaq vs. Hakeem can go either way, but Shaq over Moses all the way.

And what about Oscar being so high? And I like Oscar.

728huey said:

trueiopian said:

I don't think Dirk is up there but he's a great player and his performance during this series def. proves it.

I think it's safe to say that Dirk Nowitzki may be the greatest foreign-born player in NBA history. Vlade Divac was good, but he never won an NBA title. Drazen Petrovic could have been among the greats but tragically died in his prime. Toni Kukoc, Detlef Schrempf, Rik Smits, Luc Longley, and Peja Stoyakovic were all just role players. Yao Ming has been hurt too much, just like Arvydas Sabonis was before him, and while Tony Parker, Manu Ginnobli and Pau Gasol have all won multiple NBA titles, they weren't the main focal points of their teams. Dirk Nowitzki, however, is the heart and soul of the Mavericks and has been for several years. An argument could be made for Steve Nash , but his lack of an NBA title hurts his chances.

Hakeem Olajuwon was bron in Lagos, Nigeria.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

728huey said:

I think it's safe to say that Dirk Nowitzki may be the greatest foreign-born player in NBA history. Vlade Divac was good, but he never won an NBA title. Drazen Petrovic could have been among the greats but tragically died in his prime. Toni Kukoc, Detlef Schrempf, Rik Smits, Luc Longley, and Peja Stoyakovic were all just role players. Yao Ming has been hurt too much, just like Arvydas Sabonis was before him, and while Tony Parker, Manu Ginnobli and Pau Gasol have all won multiple NBA titles, they weren't the main focal points of their teams. Dirk Nowitzki, however, is the heart and soul of the Mavericks and has been for several years. An argument could be made for Steve Nash , but his lack of an NBA title hurts his chances.

Hakeem Olajuwon was bron in Lagos, Nigeria.

Oops! I forgot about him. I probably overlooked him because he earned his American citizenship a long time ago. My bad.

I also overlooked Dikembe Mutombo, yet while Mutombo was a monster defender and rebounder, Dirk has him beat offensively.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:55pm]

728huey said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Hakeem Olajuwon was bron in Lagos, Nigeria.

Oops! I forgot about him. I probably overlooked him because he earned his American citizenship a long time ago. My bad.

I also overlooked Dikembe Mutombo, yet while Mutombo was a monster defender and rebounder, Dirk has him beat offensively.

[Edited 6/15/11 18:55pm]

Patrick Ewing was born in Jamica, Tim Duncan in the Virgin Islands.Steve Nash was actually born in South Africa.

uPtoWnNY said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Are you serious for both. Shaq is easily top 10. Don't even have to explain.

Shaq over Hakeem Olajuwon & Moses Malone? Hell no.

Sure isn't. Hakeem in his prime was more complete than Shaq whom

primarily relied on his power before showing some offensive moves

in LA.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

SCNDLS said:

Now, that this season has a bow on it and it's a wrap, it's time to speculate on who can go all the way next year. Do you think the Dallas Mavericks has what it takes to repeat? If not, who are the contenders in your opinion?

I think the Mavs could actually repeat, and I'm not just saying that cuz I'm a homer. They showed a lot of resilience all season long, especially after Caron AND Dirk were hurt earlier this year and they lost 6 in a row. Plus their performance throughout the playoffs was extraordinary IMO considering they were constantly playing from behind against younger teams who supposedly had more offensive weapons and better D.

I think the Mavs can do it again primarily because they will get back Caron Butler their 2nd highest scorer. That will be a HUGE help to Dirk and take the pressure off. As well as they did in the playoffs imagine if they had Caron's offensive contribution too. Also IF they re-sign Tyson Chandler, pay JJ Barea more than the $1.8 mil he got this year, get Kidd back, I don't see why they can't do it again.

The biggest threat in the West is the Lakers and I think there's too much uncertainty with the new coach and Kobe to say that's gonna be a lock. The Thunder could get it together but I think the Mavs would beat them again. As for the East, I'll say the Heat, provided they iron out their issues, could get back to the Finals again. So, I'm calling another Dallas vs. Miami finals in 2012.

Of course, everything is contigent on there not being a lockout next season.

The y played the entire half of the last season without Caron Butler, a proven all-star in this league. Also, Haywood has been missing since game 2 I believe, and Beadois is a nice player hadn;t played in the playoffs.

JJ reminds me of a younf Nash when he was in Dallas. There only comp will be the Thunder.

He could be a starting guard IMO.

BTW

President Barack Obama, making the first appearance by a U.S. president in Puerto Rico since 1961, took time during his speech Tuesday to single out Dallas Mavericks guard J.J. Barea, a native of the U.S. commonwealth.

“That guy can play,” President Obama said.

Barea averaged 8.9 points during the postseason, and torched the Miami Heat in Games 5 and 6 of the NBA Finals for 32 combined points.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shaq over Hakeem Olajuwon & Moses Malone? Hell no.

I love Hakeem, (from Houston) but come on. Shaq's first game in the NBA was vs Robert Parish. He dropped 26/15 on the chief. Robert was still basically an All-Star wen Shaq was a rookie.

Against the main 3 centers of the 90s', Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. He more than held his own as a young fella. Hell, in the Finals, he gave a peak prime Hakeem more than he could handle, comparedto what Dream did in the Finals the previous season vs. Ewing and the West Finals vs. Robinson.

Shaq vs. Hakeem can go either way, but Shaq over Moses all the way.

And what about Oscar being so high? And I like Oscar.

No. Absolutely not. Moses was a rebounding and scoring phenom. He did it

for years in Houston without much help.

trueiopian said:

namepeace said:

That's not what Cerebus said. Cerebus said he could end up as one of the greatest. And he can if only because a title will change his perception greatly.

Dirk Nowitzki has been one of the 10 best players in this league for the better part of 10 years. Now he's been elevated by many as one of the top power forwards of all time. He didn't have many folks saying that until after the Mavs won the O'Brien.

The ceiling for James is extremely high. He is one of the most gifted basketball players there ever was. The same things he may need to do to improve his game are the same things he may need to do to win a title. And even with 1 title he'll ascend to the greatest ever list. He's a top 50 player, easy, but to get to the "big room," he's going to have to come up bigger.

That's all I think Cerebus said and he was right.

Um wow. Are you serious with the bolded?

Really? You don't think LeBron James is one of the most gifted athletes to ever play the game?

Okay.

But few who are serious about the subject would say otherwise.

phunkdaddy said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I love Hakeem, (from Houston) but come on. Shaq's first game in the NBA was vs Robert Parish. He dropped 26/15 on the chief. Robert was still basically an All-Star wen Shaq was a rookie.

Against the main 3 centers of the 90s', Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. He more than held his own as a young fella. Hell, in the Finals, he gave a peak prime Hakeem more than he could handle, comparedto what Dream did in the Finals the previous season vs. Ewing and the West Finals vs. Robinson.

Shaq vs. Hakeem can go either way, but Shaq over Moses all the way.

And what about Oscar being so high? And I like Oscar.

No. Absolutely not. Moses was a rebounding and scoring phenom. He did it

for years in Houston without much help.

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

LittleBLUECorvette said:

phunkdaddy said:

No. Absolutely not. Moses was a rebounding and scoring phenom. He did it

for years in Houston without much help.

And Shaq wasn't?? If you had a choice of prime Shaq vs prime Mo, you taking Mo?

SOme people have Shaq s high as 4 (not me) but dude is a top ten player all-time.

If a non prime Shaq, is holding his own vs prime/peak Olajuwon, Ewing and Robinson in the early 90s', what would happen if early 2000s Shaq is playing against them?

Shaq wasn't a complete player in the early 90's. All he did was steamroll over people

to score(numerous charges that weren't even called). Dude was so one dimensional.

You telling me Hakeem didn't school him in the NBA finals when he was with Orlando.

SCNDLS said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Dirk has been considered one of the top power fowards all-time for the past 5 seasons or so.

I don't see Bron gettin' much better, he'll be in his 9th season whenever it starts up again. HE just needs to work on the little things like a mid-range jumper, and some post move. He needs to watch some Adrian Dantley films.

Exactly! But not just forwards, folks gotta definitely look at him as one of the best PLAYERS ever. He's one of only 13 players in NBA history who have been league MVP, Finals MVP, and 10 time all star. What more does he have to do?

Bill Russell

MJ

Larry Bird

Magic

Kareem

Moses Malone

Dr. J

Oscar Robertson

Wilt

Kobe

Tim Duncan

Shaq

Some people have considered Dirk a top-5 PF for the last half-decade, true, but as someone implied earlier, he couldn't surpass Garnett for a while, and the talk of his greatness was greatly hampered by his performance in the Finals 5 years ago. Now most everybody is on Dirk's bandwagon.

I've loved Dirk's game for almost a decade, and he and Deron Williams are my 2 favorite players in the league to watch, hands down. But he's been dogged by the "soft" talk and not being able to close (though he's dethroned Kobe's Lakers and Big Fundy's Spurs in the last 5 years). The point was, winning a title strips away any doubt about Dirk's place as a top half of top 50 player. And LBJ winning a title will similarly elevate LBJ's standing.

Honestly, I think he settles somewhere in the top 20 when he's done. Don't know where yet. He could win another title and that would put him even higher.