I'm still stuck on "peeing on the dog". I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE UGLY. YOU JUST HAVE BAD LUCK WHEN IT COMES TO MIRRORS AND SUNLIGHT!
RIP Dick Clark, Whitney Houston, Don Cornelius, Heavy D, and Donna Summer. ![]() | |
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So much I want to say but I must be careful. My child is 9. Seems that I was pretty willful from infancy on myself and so was her dad so it is inherited. I did not spank so she almost always ran the home. If I hit her she went into a Miss Piggy like rage and bit me, or ran away from me toward a large object that she could hurl at me etc. It was bad, bad, bad. Recently I have had her 24/7 since I have no one to take her off my hands and low and behold, her behavior is improving. She seems to understand the whole "US" word better. I am now no longer the Princess' handmaiden. (I have not hit her to make this happen either). It's just that she sees the whole cause and effect of things. There came a time when the risk of remaining tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. Anais Nin. | |
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THE B EST BE YOURSELF AS LONG AS YOUR SELF ISNT A DYCK[/r]
**....Someti | |
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This.
I believe parenting requires a lot of patience and remembering that you too were once a child and got on your parents nerves. People want there kids to be mini versions of their adult selves and it just doesn't work that way. I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE UGLY. YOU JUST HAVE BAD LUCK WHEN IT COMES TO MIRRORS AND SUNLIGHT!
RIP Dick Clark, Whitney Houston, Don Cornelius, Heavy D, and Donna Summer. ![]() | |
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discipline starts around 2:15
but do listen to the entire video learn something... i am KING BAD!!!
you are NOT... STOP ME IF YOU HEARD THIS BEFORE... | |
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I think spanking depends on the child: I see bad ass be-be kids all the time that could use a good "ass whoopin" (not beating). On the other hand Some kids can just follow rules or receive effective alternative punishment. I wasnt a bad or unrulely kid but Between the ages of 2 and a half through 5, I had an uncle who would show up ,leather belt in hand, who would literally beat me every time he came around. So when ever I heard he was coming over I'd hide in closets & under beds crying.(I started hating him). He never even laid a finger on any of his kids. Discipline is 1 thng, abuse is another. I've had whoopins (we dnt call them 'spankings' out here) from my mom only about 3 or 4 times that I can remember and they were always for good enough reasons. As long as the child isn't being injured or being hit with excessive force or being hit for the wrong reason it's understandable . “The only male singer who I’ve seen besides myself and who’s better than me – that is Michael Jackson.” – Frank Sinatra | |
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i went to the store with my daughter and noticed she seemed busy. runnin in and out the aisle asking for everything...typical kid, so i decided to give her a few things to do. go get mamma some things...etc. etc. she began to scream, why i gotta do that for you momma!!! before i knew it i had slapped her and said, DO IT CHILD! I knew what i was doing, she didnt. she stood there so stunned and shocked and i told her next time, instead of embarrassing momma and acting like a cracked out monkey, do what mamma says because she wants to help you and does not need store owners correcting her children for shyt they dont have to do..... THE B EST BE YOURSELF AS LONG AS YOUR SELF ISNT A DYCK[/r]
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I wonder why. | |
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without seeing evidence that any of the people here are like this; and not saying that anyone here would ever condone such things; and without pointing a finger at any one culture in particular:
here is an interesting article about conditioned responses which highlights the way that using "violence" against children in the form of striking, spanking or hitting as a form of discipline can backfire at times. i'm not wanting to incite a riot by implying that all spankings are wrong. nor am i saying that parents who spank their children are evil. that being said:
The kids aren't all right: Britain's angry childrenhttp://www.independent.co...18870.html
Shocking new figures show that violence among Britain's young children has reached unprecedented levels – with thousands of under-11s being suspended from school each year. Clare Dwyer Hogg talks to the parents, teachers and social workers at the front line Saturday, 31 January 2009
By the age of 10, James was so physically aggressive to adults and children that his parents couldn't cope with his level of violence. If he was told he couldn't do something, he would hit and kick them. Or he would destroy his bedroom, throwing and smashing whatever came to hand. He'd been like that since the age of four. His parents, who had learning difficulties, did what they could, but found it hard to be consistent. James is now in a residential school, away from his family.
He is not an isolated case. In November 2008, figures were released as a result of a question in parliament by the Shadow Secretary for Children, Schools and Families, Michael Gove: in 2006, 3,750 children aged four and five were suspended from school; 890 of those were exclusions of five-year-olds who had assaulted an adult; 420 were four years old and 140 were three years old; 1,010 under-fives were excluded for assaults on other children. The suspensions of children aged from two to 11 years old altogether numbered more than 45,500 – this was up from 40,000 the year before.
Julie Crichley is a mother with first-hand experience of violent children. Peter, the eldest of her six children, has just been sent away to boarding school, in an attempt to calm him down. He's 13. "When he was little I just thought he was just going through the terrible twos," she says. "But as he got older the tantrums got worse. He used to lose the plot big time." Peter's aggressive behaviour at home spilled into school life, which resulted in exclusion at an early age. "He was kicked out of school in Year 2 and ever since then hasn't had a stable school life," Crichley says. This in turn impacted on the frustration he expressed at home, and it wasn't long before he turned on his mother: "Once he gave me a black eye, and I took him to the social services to ask for help because I had no control over him."
At risk of having her other children taken into care because of Peter's violence towards them, she was assigned an Intensive Support Team by social services. Jack, Peter's younger brother, was also becoming abusive. "Jack's behaviour spiralled out of control. He was battering his little brothers because he used to get battered." The team workers advised Crichley, for a start, that she should let her children play outside. "They were cooped up, bored out of their heads – I think I smothered them," she says. "The team helped me set boundaries, which was brilliant." Simple things she didn't think would work, such as sticker charts for good behaviour, changed the dynamic of the family. She's also changed her own reactions to their behaviour: "I used to scream and swear, and if I screamed they'd scream back. Now they don't swear at me, or scream and shout as much."
This story is repeated up and down the country. David Lewis, a social worker in the north of England, sees countless families who just cannot cope with the aggressive behaviour of their children. Ryan, one of his cases, was excluded from two primary schools by the time he was eight years old. In his next school, he was sent home most days by lunchtime for running out of lessons, shouting and swearing at the teachers and throwing chairs. "He would often only be in school for an hour or two before being restrained," Lewis says. "And without specialist input, all the school could do was manage his behaviour – not educate him." Meanwhile, outside school, he was hanging out with older children and getting picked up by the police for low-level criminal damage. "We didn't hear about Ryan until he was eight, by which time his problems were already very severe," Lewis says. "If we can work with children when they're younger, there's more scope to change these patterns."
Long before social services were involved, Ryan's home life was difficult. Because his mother had a serious drug addiction, Ryan and his sister moved to live with an elderly relative, who was already struggling with limited space and finances. With emotional problems too overwhelming for his carer, Ryan's behaviour steadily spiralled out of control.
Now Ryan attends a specialist residential school, and only returns to his family at the weekends. Lewis hopes he'll be able to come back into mainstream schooling soon. "He's doing well: there's structure and boundaries, but it also works because they give him warmth and self-esteem, and he's learnt that he can do things. Children with these problems spend their lives excluded from things: they're shouted at, thrown out, and feel so bad about themselves that the only way to get attention is in a negative way."
This seems to correlate with research commissioned by the National Union of Teachers and published in August last year. The original report – Teachers Under Pressure – by Professors Maurice Galton and John MacBeath at Cambridge University, was not supposed to be about child aggression, but inadvertently brought to light the real problems in this area. In 2002, the pair conducted classroom-based research about what teachers found stopped them teaching effectively. They went back in 2006 to update their work, and found a dramatic change. "In 2002 the teachers had ranked six things that impeded their teaching, none of which was disruption. In 2006 disruption was the first thing on the list," Professor Galton says. "They said the same things – it's a minority of parents, but they have trouble coping with their children, and this reflects back on us." Children, they found, were staying up until the early hours of the morning – one mother was triumphant that she'd got her child to bed at 1am rather than 4am, Galton says – or were watching films beyond their age group. "The interruptions were there in 2002, but the teachers dealt with it. By 2006, there were more examples of extreme cases of violent children and more confrontational responses when the children were told off for minor offences. They tended to be more aggressive."
And when the children who are displaying aggression are very young, getting to the root of their problem can be difficult. Jess Collins, a primary school teacher in the south of England, recently witnessed violent behaviour from a new four-year-old girl in her class. "In lesson time she was intelligent, very polite and well behaved, but at play time she would become violent towards the other girls, kicking and punching them when no one was looking," Collins says. "Her behaviour really worried me because it was so extreme. When I confronted her about kicking somebody she broke down and became inconsolable. She couldn't tell me why she had done it." A few days later, the little girl left the school, and soon after Collins was visited by a social worker. "The social services had discovered she was being sexually abused by her mother's new partner, and had contracted a sexually transmitted disease," Collins says.
Brian Woods, a documentary maker with True Vision, recently filmed in three schools, charting the experiences of violence in the classroom. Throughout his career, Woods has caught some shocking footage on camera – including The Dying Rooms which showed extreme deprivation in Chinese orphanages – but he still found the experience in UK schools eye-opening. "One of the things that shocked me was the degree of physical restraint that was sometimes necessary," he says. "Especially the sight of three adults carrying a child face down, while he was kicking and screaming." The child was a nine-year-old who was refusing to leave the playground and go into class. "They couldn't control him." Woods was worried the school would ask him to take out the scene, but it was nothing out of the ordinary. "They said that's what we do every day – parents know that. I was quite shocked."
What also disturbed Woods was that the behaviour children were exhibiting in play contained traces of violent experience too. He filmed five- and six-year-olds talking about the slasher films they'd been watching; one admitted he'd had nightmares after watching a particularly gruesome horror film with his grandmother. Another child play-acted his home life by throwing a blanket over his head and staggering around: "He was falling over, saying 'I'm drunk, I'm drunk – you're going to beat me up? I'll smash your fucking head in first'," Woods recalls. "This seven-year-old had experienced some dark times."
It is inevitable, of course, that the consequences of bad experiences outside school are carried into the classroom. Tom Watkins, a teacher in south London, frequently sees children, as young as four, displaying angry behaviour that seemingly needs no provocation. "I taught a four-year-old boy who was displaying some very anti-social behaviour: name-calling, hitting and swearing at teachers," he says. The boy attended Breakfast Club and the after-school Kids' Club, which meant he was at school from 8am until 6pm every day. "He became very violent," Watkins says. "He would punch other children in the back in unprovoked attacks, or trip them over and yell at them to shut up if they cried." A behaviour support teacher who visited his house suggested his violence was due in part to the difficulties his mother, in her early twenties, was having with bonding with him. The child was the result of a violent relationship, and his mother seemed to resent him, giving him little physical contact or affection. "The boy ended up attending a special behaviour unit for one day a week," says Watkins. Alex O'Connoll, a teacher in Portsmouth, echoes Watkins' experiences. "When I was a Newly Qualified Teacher I found the behaviour absolutely shocking," he says. "But you learn to deal with it: it's not what I signed up for, but it's part and parcel of the job."
In an attempt to help these aggressive children in a different way, many schools are turning to Nurture Groups. The ethos of the Nurture Group Network – which is not always government funded, depending on the area – is that the children have problems, rather than the children being the problem. "Many of these children can't socialise, because they've got no trusting relationships with adults," says Angela Sarkis, the organisation's chief executive. There are around 1,000 groups in schools across the UK, and the point of a Nurture Room within a school is to mirror what family life could be: there is a table where the teachers (usually two, often male and female) can share meals with the children, a sink so they can help with the washing-up afterwards, and a sofa where conversations can be had. Constructive play is also encouraged – there is a lot of Lego around. "They learn how to behave and how to express themselves," Sarkis says. "The rest of us who had decent lives take for granted using a knife and fork, but many children arrive in school totally unsocialised, and because of that everything is a huge challenge. It's not surprising they fall behind academically, and especially if they can't express themselves verbally – it's easier to express aggression."
Vitally, Sarkis says, Nurture Groups don't take the children out of the normal school environment – they go to the group three times a week on average, which means they maintain their peer groups. "Some children will come to school not having had breakfast or tea the night before," she says. "Children are not all in the same place when they arrive in the classroom, and the sooner we realise one size doesn't fit all, the better." She says many children with a difficult start end up in the criminal justice system where the prognosis for them is bleak, and that injecting resources at the earliest possible stage so they're put on a par with their contemporaries makes sense. "This is not about bad parenting," she continues. "Just that parents can't give what they didn't receive as children."
One 10-year-old girl who was often in trouble at her school in Manchester was particularly confrontational with teachers, shouting, swearing and running out of class at every opportunity. Sheila Coffey, the social worker who investigated her home life, discovered that she was spending time with older children in her area, and regularly coming home drunk in the early hours of the morning. "The parents had difficult childhoods themselves," Coffey says, "and didn't see the link between their own alcohol addiction, the neglect of their child, and her resulting behaviour. Even after extensive help, they felt she was inexplicably difficult." The girl was eventually taken into care. "The thing is," Coffey continues, "behaviour is not an automatic response – it's complex and developed in stages from the early years of childhood. You can't just change the situation and expect the behaviour to change immediately. There has to be a structure." As an illustration of this, she tells the story of an 18-month-old child she works with who has just been brought into foster care. "She came from a home where the parents had serious drug and alcohol addictions, and she witnessed a lot of domestic violence. Now, if she's not being paid enough attention, she smashes toys against the wall, bursts into floods of tears, or has a tantrum. She also has real problems sleeping at night. You can see over time how this could develop into disruptive behaviour in school." The job of the carer now, she says, is to be consistent about boundaries, and to be able to tell the little girl, "No", while being emotionally warm and available, building the supportive relationship that should have been there from the beginning. "When I talk about being positive and building self-esteem, people will think all these children need is old-fashioned discipline," she says. "That can work at age two, but not by itself at eight or nine."
Claude Knights, the director of the children's charity Kidscape, is familiar with this. "We live in a blame culture, but it's about shared responsibility," she says. Knights thinks that lack of parental support is often key. "In the work we've done in nursery schools, where teachers are dealing with violent behaviour, there's a lot of talk about lack of boundaries," she says. "Children are coming in who have never heard 'No', let alone knowing how to respond to it. At home they're not practising the social skills you'd have expected." In the past five or 10 years, she says, teachers in reception class have learnt not to expect basic skills such as sharing or interacting with others. No real concept of what an authority figure is can often be a factor: "What we're saying is humans are not born with these skills, they're learned behaviour. And that is at the root."
While these children are labelled troublemakers, often they're coping with situations that adults would find hard to deal with. Their behaviour is only a sign of a greater need. "My experience of violent children is that they're responding normally and appropriately to what they've been exposed to," says Tania Holland, an inner-city youth worker. "The problem is not the children, it's the adults. Children are in our care to be shaped by us and nurtured by us. I've never met a violent child that hasn't been failed massively."
Names and locations have been changed to protect the identities of the children
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I read the article. Sad that so many children are in these situations.
It didn't mention spanking or discipline as a root issue, though. It did say that the "angry children" had been "battered" or abused, or were in homes with absolutely no structure or rules.
In your mind, is battering and abuse on the same level as using spanking as a form of discipline in which the child is aware that spanking is a consequence and only receives it for willfully breaking rules?
I know you prefaced the article with a disclaimer, but I'm still curious as to your thoughts on how an article on cycles of extreme violence relates to a thread on spanking as a form of discipline. | |
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i noticed that my earlier comments wherein i expressed my opposition to spanking as a form of discipline were singled out by some as not being realistic, or as being inappropriate.
i wanted to make the point, in defense of my personal standpoint*, that violence can be a learned behavior.
i am and was also responding to some of the observations made by various people that sometimes children can be out of control bad actors who require a spanking to set them straight. again, in the interests of expressing my opinion on this subject, i made the point that this approach can backfire, and cited a study to support that observation.
as indicated by the article, a system of rewards for good behavior seems to be more effective than otherwise.
*this standpoint is my personal opinion, given freely here in the general discussion forum of this website about a pop star. because debates and discussions can get heated here on this website, let it be absolutely clear that in no way shape or form do i claim to be an expert on early child development, nor on behavioral sciences. moreover i am not standing in judgment on other individuals and their personal standpoints as expressed here on this website.
[Edited 4/30/11 9:12am] | |
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OK, thanks.
I would argue that the article did not hold up a system of rewards for good behavior against spanking, but against a model with almost no system whatsoever.
Another point: Most parents who use spanking as a form of discipline also use a system of rewards for good behavior or other positive reinforcement. As others have noted here, it's important to understand that any good parent uses a constantly shifting blend of techniques and approaches in raising children. | |
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Didnt read any of the responses yet and chiming in kinda late but:
First of all I think different kids respond differently to different types of discipline.
I do have to give my kids the paddle from time to time but its not often at all that I need to. I reserve the paddle for situations where my kids are in a mood and there is no talking to them and they wont calm down and its usually on a day where I've already had to discipline them multiple times throughout the day and theyre wound up and just being monsters. Its more like a SNAP OUT OF IT type of whack.
Anyway I dont think any good can come of hauling off and smacking a child out of anger. Not gonna say I've never done it, but I usually don't and I'm against it. I don't touch my kids when I'm seething w anger.
But typically they get disciplined by either having to go to bed, since being over tired is usually what is causing them to bisbehave. Or by having something taken away from them.
Forgot to add that they get rewarded for good behavior and that tends to help a lot. [Edited 4/30/11 14:25pm] I've reached in darkness and come out with treasure
I layed down with love and I woke up with lies Whats it all worth only the heart can measure It's not whats in the mirror but what's left inside | |
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no no no. child abuse will screw a child up forever | |
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As a student of Psychology, I believe that spanking is abuse. | |
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Any form of punishment delt out in anger by a parent is abuse.
Time outs dealt out with "extra umph" and forcing a child to stay in one spot for hours is evil, my aunt had me kneeling in a corner for hours until my knees hurt ...if I complained she would then toss raw rice on the floor and made me kneel on it...sometimes until my knees bled. Or she would make us do outside chores in the cold...knowing I was a sever asthmatic. She would do shit like smoke her cigaretts in my face and get mad at me for coughing, and say "get used to it.. it'll make you strong you wimp". Bitch.
Some parents in their anger will tell children awful things... "you're bad" "that's why no one likes you", "you'll never amount to anything...you're worthless"...
all this can cause permanent damage... rip their self esteem to shreds, and so can beatings IF they are done in anger. In lots of cases, they are done in ager by the parent... this is the problem.
Its not really which form of discipline you use on a child , it how you treat that child. You can not lose control and dole out any punishment in anger. Kids know how to read people, they can tell if they are in danger, an adult doesn't have to spank a child to cause major damage when it comes to discipline, and spanking doesn't necessarily cause damage if the child isn't hurt or traumatized during the process. If that were the case, kids like my grandniece wouldn't want to be around me at all. But not all forms of discipline will work on all kids...
for examlpe: spanking is no longer effective on my son Matthew. He doesn't mind them, he prefers that to having his video games and TV taken away. When he gets in trouble, he asks to get spanked instead of stuff being taken away. So spankings is no longer used with him.
Children in my house always get a choice of which punishment they are to receive once they learn to speak... most of the time, they choose the spanking because its quick and easier on them than no TV for a week or groundings.
Matthew is 10, he knows the spankings never hurt... so he asks for them. If you spank the kids right... they are more upset by the anticipation of the spanking than the actual process of being struck on their bums with a belt. When I hit my kids they look relieved.. its like their thinking... "oh... that wasn't so bad..." and they stop crying.. but they usually never repeat the their mistakes too often so thankfully they forget it didn't hurt and I give them a look and they behave. They are angels in the candy isle and they never cut up.
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True about the anger. I think verbal abuse can be just as damaging in the long run. I think having parents who are passive agressive and have no set rules to follow is also abusive. I do think we as a society went to gung ho with the "no spanking" thing before looking at what else could be wrong here. There came a time when the risk of remaining tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. Anais Nin. | |
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Thank you. That long-ass article didn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread, IMO. No one here is advocating that young girls be sexually abused by their mother's boyfriend and given STDs. We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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I agree with you - Except for the Bold bit
Spanking - Or to simplify it - A smacked bottom, is a short sharp shock. Used to grab the childs attention to let them know they are doing wrong. In my opinion.
Anything more than that, A slap, punch etc etc is abuse. Name calling, neglect etc is abusive too in a mental way.
People need to differentiate a "Spank" from the more serious forms of physical punishment.
I don't use physical punishment on my Son. Instead he is rewarded for good behaviour and punished for bad. Punishments are where he doesn't get a treat or he isn't allowed to watch cartoons or play teh Xbox etc. This, luckily is efficient and I am happy with that.
I recently saw a parent leaving school with her children and one of them was having a hissy fit, so with her left arm she grabbed the child by the right arm and then using her right arm she hit the kid's bottom so hard that she knocked the kid off their feet, she then let go of teh kid allowing them to drop to the floor and shouted at the kid "Im fucking sick of you, you little bastard, just fuck off, I hate you".
Imagine the next 10 years of your life with that kind of parenting, a sad and lonely life.
[Edited 5/13/11 14:08pm] Life is short, don't be a dick.
R.I.P Prince - Thank you for your Music, Your Talent and for helping me find out who I was and am. | |
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I myself had to tell a first grade teacher about a little kid that had a blackeye. I am on the parent council with the dad and the boy and dad had conflicting stories as to what happened to his face.
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This topic has come up before so I'll just mostly restate what I basically stated before:
Some kids benefit from it, some don't.
Nobody is suggesting in place of talking to your kids. You can do both. Not sure why so many folks act like it's one or the other.
Spanking is not teaching violence is okay if you're punishing for violent behavior. Somewhere, the kid obviously already came to that conclusion if they're being violent to begin with. Spanking them simply makes them question that belief. Besides, in real life, when you hit someone, that person does not put you on time-out. They punch you back. A few times.
I'm lucky in that I haven't had to spank my child. I've slapped her hand as a toddler when the concept of electrocution was a little beyond her comprehension. This of course, after repeated warnings not to touch. Better she feel the sting of me swatting her hand than a few thousand volts coursing through her body.
But hey, do whatever helps you sleep at night.
[Edited 5/13/11 22:28pm] | |
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My son is 18 & when he was young damn right id smack him!!!! hes a great young man now so did him world of good.After the age of 7 eye only had 2 look at him & that was just like a smack!!!thats whats wrong in the world 2day!!!not enuf smacking being done!!! spare the rod & all that!!. Dave Is Nuttier Than A Can Of Planters Peanuts...(Ottensen) | |
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My parents generation spanked: it's funny you could walk the streets at anytime, hold a conversations with community store merchants without talking through 5 inch bullet proof glass or having to put your money through a damn daisy-wheel. Now, I live in a community where violence is a daily occurrence, sensible people try to get off the street before sunset, and now Black adults are afraid of their own children.
What's wrong with this picture.
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it is a discussion of ways in which children learn violence from their environment and their primary caretakers and it addresses alternate ways of teaching children to behave, i.e. the nurturing group
[Edited 5/24/11 3:46am] | |
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hmmm. it's interesting that now a days- folks cant discipline their kids because of laws. Unfortunately, those laws are needed to protect children of abusive parents.
However, there are not to many children with good manners and respect. They don't honor their elders-strangers or family. Instead, they storm past you, curse in front of you, curse at you, spit on you, won't yield a seat on the bus, wear whatevr they want and how they want, will sex your man or woman, have no natural affection for other children, steal, abandon their aged parents, and are clearly more violent than before.
oh and did I mention that they are spoiled, don't respect authority, don/t feel the need to apply themselves in school and grow up without good work ethics.
Did I get spanked? No- I got beat- abused- cause that's all my mom knew- there wasnt a balance- its wasnt discipline. Do I think a good butt spanking or tap on the hand is an acceptable form of discipline- yes. I will do- but I won't beat a child. I don't think that when someone says "whup that ass" they are infering that you abuse a child. LOVE HARD. | |
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I don't think spanking hurts enough to really work. My parents used to spank me and I would laugh at them because they had these ridiculous looks on their faces while they were doing it. So then they started whipping me with the belt occassionally when I was too argumentative. I wasn't a bad kid. I got straight As and was well-behaved but I argued all the time. It's hard being more intelligent than your parents and having no say because you're a minor. They didn't like when I would argue with them about how they raised my sister and would scream at me and occassionally whip me for it. I never once cried when I got whipped either, not in front of them anyway. It honestly never bothered me either because I viewed it as a weakness on their part...that they were so unable to contain their emotions in a normal way that they would have to beat me. My mom and I are very close now but I've only talked to my dad a handful of times since I moved out at 17. He thinks I'm disgusting because I'm gay. "Keep in mind that I'm an artist...and I'm sensitive about my shit."--E. Badu | |
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