As a follow-up to my previous reply: I don't have the experience of parenting children, but having been a child who was 'disciplined' [please note here the cynical quotation marks!] by a mother who would not think twice about raising her hand both on me and my brother [she would also use a whip, which in good abuser that she was, she later denied] - I can say that no, it doesn't work. All it 'achieved' in doing was instilling hatred for my mum that's buried deep down. I say 'deep down', because I do appreciate other traits and actions of her, and am very grateful for these. But the physical [and yes, emotional abuse, such as namecalling - as was very correctly said here above, they often go together) - that, no, never can I forgive and forget.

Real, genuine, powerful authority [and the related respect from your kids] I believe doesn't even need to raise its voice [let alone its hand].

My grandfather used to have such respect from his children, I was told [I haven't known him]. All he had to do was to just look at you a certain way, and that was it!

It goes without saying I could never lay a hand on a child, mine or others', including raise my voice.

Flo6 said:

If I may ask: at teaching them what exactly? That violence is a solution?...

Ok, I guess I should shut up, as I don't have kids of my own [yet]...

formallypickles said:

some kids need the paddle..but do it as a last option.

one good paddle will work wonders.

ive gotten the paddle when i was younger..but at certain age my parent stopped

[Edited 4/27/11 18:15pm]

I think sometimes, at a certain age where communicating verbally is still not fully possible, it can just be about association. You can't watch kids every second of every day and they will find a way to get their hands on something they shouldn't, even with your best intentions. Sometimes they may be in danger, despite you trying to keep them out of harm's way. I've smacked my youngest nephew hard on the hand for this reason before, in case trying to explain isn't enough. Whatever it takes, so that he just won't do it again. It's too important to leave it up in the air and possibly not fully understood.

I'm not keen on the idea that violence (and that's what it is) is a way of resolving conflicts.

Though, I've seen some kids who obviously weren't responding to other methods.

SagsWay2low said:

I'm not keen on the idea that violence (and that's what it is) is a way of resolving conflicts.

Though, I've seen some kids who obviously weren't responding to other methods.

It's the same with orgers and bricks.

I always stay out of these discussions because I’m not a parent and I never, ever, ever want to be one, but the book I’m reading (How We Know What Isn’t So by Thomas Gilovich) has a section that’s relevant, so I’m just going to quote directly that passage below. The high-level summary of his point is that extreme behaviour, good or bad, will regress to the mean, which results in parents getting false positive results from their actions: praise for good acts appears to result in reduction of good acts, and punishment for bad acts seems to result in abatement of bad acts, when all that is happening is the child is regressing to his average behaviour.

How We Know What Isn’t So – Thomas Gilovich

Fauxie said:

SagsWay2low said:

I'm not keen on the idea that violence (and that's what it is) is a way of resolving conflicts.

Though, I've seen some kids who obviously weren't responding to other methods.

It's the same with orgers and bricks.

I have slapped my kids on the back of the leg a few times (probably 5 times max). It's always happened at times when they've pushed and pushed. In honesty it's not because i've made a concious decision to punish them in that way, it's because i've snapped and lost it.

The threat of the naughty step is much more effective in my house.

I guess you do have a point, especially when it's a dangerous/life-threatening situation, such as playing with matches, etc. My brother's little boy loved to stick things into electrical plugs/holes when he was a toddler, he was fascinated by them!

To be frank I'm not sure how I myself would deal with that... I feel incapable physically speaking of hurting a child, but on the other hand I can see how 'the angry look in your eyes' may not work at that age.

What a dilemma...

Fauxie said:

Flo6 said:

If I may ask: at teaching them what exactly? That violence is a solution?...

Ok, I guess I should shut up, as I don't have kids of my own [yet]...

I think sometimes, at a certain age where communicating verbally is still not fully possible, it can just be about association. You can't watch kids every second of every day and they will find a way to get their hands on something they shouldn't, even with your best intentions. Sometimes they may be in danger, despite you trying to keep them out of harm's way. I've smacked my youngest nephew hard on the hand for this reason before, in case trying to explain isn't enough. Whatever it takes, so that he just won't do it again. It's too important to leave it up in the air and possibly not fully understood.

Like John and many others here, I was spanked a few times when I was a kid too. It was EXTREMELY infrequent and pretty effective.

THat being said, without kids of my own yet, I have a little something to add. Not so long ago, I had to house sit for three baby nieces and nephews for a two week stint. The kids were very used to getting their way and pretty unruly. (Can't tell you how many times I have heard them tell their momma to shut up). Their parents had never really installed any form of discpline because they didn't believe in yelling or hitting the kids. It was pretty crazy.

Any way, I would say a good 70 to 80% of the craziness went away the second I implemented the time out for bad behavior. They H.A.T.E.D. it. No violence. No threats. Just, "you act bad and you can't be out here with the rest of us watching Finding NEMO and playing games". Things got so much better so quickly.

Not saying like Lisa said right below that a spanking might not be in order on rare occasion, (because I could honestly see that too). But I do think that should be the rare exception to the rule.

Fenwick said:

Like John and many others here, I was spanked a few times when I was a kid too. It was EXTREMELY infrequent and pretty effective.

THat being said, without kids of my own yet, I have a little something to add. Not so long ago, I had to house sit for three baby nieces and nephews for a two week stint. The kids were very used to getting their way and pretty unruly. (Can't tell you how many times I have heard them tell their momma to shut up). Their parents had never really installed any form of discpline because they didn't believe in yelling or hitting the kids. It was pretty crazy.

Any way, I would say a good 70 to 80% of the craziness went away the second I implemented the time out for bad behavior. They H.A.T.E.D. it. No violence. No threats. Just, "you act bad and you can't be out here with the rest of us watching Finding NEMO and playing games". Things got so much better so quickly.

Not saying like Lisa said right below that a spanking might not be in order on rare occasion, (because I could honestly see that too). But I do think that should be the rare exception to the rule.

Great post.

paintedlady said:

Great post.

Thank you!!! I'm good for one every month or so!!!!!

I have a few scenarios that happened with my kids when they were spanked...

to answer Flo6...

um, one incident..

I saw my Matt chasing his little sister with a sharp filet knife out the dish rack....

I was folding laundry and I heard a scream....

I walk in the living room and I was like, Matt... what are you doing?

"Nia won't give me my ____"

"So why did you get that knife? That's dangerous... you can cut yourself and your sister.... go get the belt"

"But mommy... I.. I.... "

"I said get the belt, you're not gonna pull this mess in my house, if your sister is bothering you, I told you to get me and have me deal with it.... belt...NOW"

He went and gave me the belt in tears and I hit him 3 times with it, he doesn't duck so its quick and easy with him....its a clean on the butt and its over.

I spoke to him in detail later about what I expected... we hugged he went an apologized to his sister,

I later found out his older brother was chasing him with a knife the day before.... his older brother was a teen and taunting him like that mess was funny when I wasn't pleased at all... spoke to him ... then I spanked him too. I never had any issue after with any regards to kids hitting or threatening each other.

I hate it when kids hit each other... if someone hits somebody, I hit them... they stop yelling and hitting each other once that threat is carried out once.

another incident....

My grand niece came over for a sleep over... I ran to a screaming Nia while my grandniece (same age) was full on wailing on Nia. Nia was cowered in a corner and Jewel had a her hair in one fist and was punching and kicking her with the other fist. Nia was hollering.

I walked over calmly and punched Jewel one time on her asscheek.

I never like to hit kids with my hands.....

Jewel's leg straightened out and she went down.....total charlie horse.

I quietly said...

"Did you like that?"

Jewel: "nnnnoooo...." in pain grabbing her asscheek

me: "You ever want me to do that again?"

Jewel: "Noooo...." crying , still holding her asscheek

Me: "Then don't EVER put your hands on anyone in this house... if you have ANY problem, come to me and I'll fix it."

Jewel:" Ookkkkaayyy.... mmhhh" ... still holding her asscheek... now tears are flowing.

Me: "I will tell your mom what happened, if she gets mad, you will never come here again, I don't play that mess."

We then had a long discussion about it all... Jewel apologized to Nia, I hugged Jewel and we all made up and baked cookies... Jewel doesn't hit anymore, and now she stopped fighting on the playground because I forced her to start to talk and use words instead of her fists like she did before.

Jewel always comes to my home and she always asks her mom if she can stay longer.. we like her company.

So those were my experiences.... they are controversial, but in both cases the spankings were effective... I did break all my rules with poor Jewel, but that was an extreme circumstance that I wasn't even expecting or prepared for. I think I could have done way better... but her mom wasn't upset. That totally shocked me... I expected a punch in the face honestly, instead I got a thank you. Poor Jewel... but it was a quick fix because it hit home to her that violence is not an answer. She doesn't hit anymore.

I don't think I had to spank anyone since then... with Jewel that was 3 years ago. The kids always listen and get time-outs or are just spoken to in most cases.

Lisa10 said:

I have slapped my kids on the back of the leg a few times (probably 5 times max). It's always happened at times when they've pushed and pushed. In honesty it's not because i've made a concious decision to punish them in that way, it's because i've snapped and lost it.

The threat of the naughty step is much more effective in my house.

And I'd like to add that (in my opinion) hitting and yelling at kids is ineffective if done often.

If I raise my voice at my kids, or on the occasion that they might have got a slap on the leg, they know to do as they're told becuase it's not the norm from me.

I've seen people who are constantly yelling at their kids... it does nothing. The kids just accept that that's what their parents do and often the kids turn into gobshites too.

paintedlady said:

I have a few scenarios that happened with my kids when they were spanked...

to answer Flo6...

um, one incident..

I saw my Matt chasing his little sister with a sharp filet knife out the dish rack....

I was folding laundry and I heard a scream....

I walk in the living room and I was like, Matt... what are you doing?

"Nia won't give me my ____"

"So why did you get that knife? That's dangerous... you can cut yourself and your sister.... go get the belt"

"But mommy... I.. I.... "

"I said get the belt, you're not gonna pull this mess in my house, if your sister is bothering you, I told you to get me and have me deal with it.... belt...NOW"

He went and gave me the belt in tears and I hit him 3 times with it, he doesn't duck so its quick and easy with him....its a clean on the butt and its over.

I spoke to him in detail later about what I expected... we hugged he went an apologized to his sister,

I later found out his older brother was chasing him with a knife the day before.... his older brother was a teen and taunting him like that mess was funny when I wasn't pleased at all... spoke to him ... then I spanked him too. I never had any issue after with any regards to kids hitting or threatening each other.

I hate it when kids hit each other... if someone hits somebody, I hit them... they stop yelling and hitting each other once that threat is carried out once.

another incident....

My grand niece came over for a sleep over... I ran to a screaming Nia while my grandniece (same age) was full on wailing on Nia. Nia was cowered in a corner and Jewel had a her hair in one fist and was punching and kicking her with the other fist. Nia was hollering.

I walked over calmly and punched Jewel one time on her asscheek.

I never like to hit kids with my hands.....

Jewel's leg straightened out and she went down.....total charlie horse.

I quietly said...

"Did you like that?"

Jewel: "nnnnoooo...." in pain grabbing her asscheek

me: "You ever want me to do that again?"

Jewel: "Noooo...." crying , still holding her asscheek

Me: "Then don't EVER put your hands on anyone in this house... if you have ANY problem, come to me and I'll fix it."

Jewel:" Ookkkkaayyy.... mmhhh" ... still holding her asscheek... now tears are flowing.

Me: "I will tell your mom what happened, if she gets mad, you will never come here again, I don't play that mess."

We then had a long discussion about it all... Jewel apologized to Nia, I hugged Jewel and we all made up and baked cookies... Jewel doesn't hit anymore, and now she stopped fighting on the playground because I forced her to start to talk and use words instead of her fists like she did before.

Jewel always comes to my home and she always asks her mom if she can stay longer.. we like her company.

So those were my experiences.... they are controversial, but in both cases the spankings were effective... I did break all my rules with poor Jewel, but that was an extreme circumstance that I wasn't even expecting or prepared for. I think I could have done way better... but her mom wasn't upset. That totally shocked me... I expected a punch in the face honestly, instead I got a thank you. Poor Jewel... but it was a quick fix because it hit home to her that violence is not an answer. She doesn't hit anymore.

I don't think I had to spank anyone since then... with Jewel that was 3 years ago. The kids always listen and get time-outs or are just spoken to in most cases.

Love it.

You know what's funny about the last part of this, is my nieces and nephews were the EXACT same way. "When's Uncle Matt coming back over"? These kids were 3,5 and 6.

It always blew their parent's minds and they would literally ask me, "why do the kids like you so much when you're the only one who disciplines them like that"? (Like I'm the only one who is "mean" to them).

Totally blows my mind that some people can't figure that stuff out together. Kids need and want rules. It doesn't mean you have to beat them into submission to get them to respect those rules. But you're their parent, not their friend.

[Edited 4/28/11 6:58am]

Oh... in that maylay my daughter lost a shit load of hair and had scartches on her face and a bruise on her shoulder.

Jewel and Nia were only 5.... Jewel was a tiny 5 also. That little girl has a mean right hook!

Nia took it like a champ though, Nia didn't hate her after. I love my Nia so much because of stuff like that.

These threads always bring in the sanctimonious non-parents.

STFU already.

Fauxie, you qualify as a parent (which means you know those kids need a smack every now and then) and therefore don't have to STFU.

Fenwick said:

paintedlady said:

I have a few scenarios that happened with my kids when they were spanked...

to answer Flo6...

um, one incident..

I saw my Matt chasing his little sister with a sharp filet knife out the dish rack....

I was folding laundry and I heard a scream....

I walk in the living room and I was like, Matt... what are you doing?

"Nia won't give me my ____"

"So why did you get that knife? That's dangerous... you can cut yourself and your sister.... go get the belt"

"But mommy... I.. I.... "

"I said get the belt, you're not gonna pull this mess in my house, if your sister is bothering you, I told you to get me and have me deal with it.... belt...NOW"

He went and gave me the belt in tears and I hit him 3 times with it, he doesn't duck so its quick and easy with him....its a clean on the butt and its over.

I spoke to him in detail later about what I expected... we hugged he went an apologized to his sister,

I later found out his older brother was chasing him with a knife the day before.... his older brother was a teen and taunting him like that mess was funny when I wasn't pleased at all... spoke to him ... then I spanked him too. I never had any issue after with any regards to kids hitting or threatening each other.

I hate it when kids hit each other... if someone hits somebody, I hit them... they stop yelling and hitting each other once that threat is carried out once.

another incident....

My grand niece came over for a sleep over... I ran to a screaming Nia while my grandniece (same age) was full on wailing on Nia. Nia was cowered in a corner and Jewel had a her hair in one fist and was punching and kicking her with the other fist. Nia was hollering.

I walked over calmly and punched Jewel one time on her asscheek.

I never like to hit kids with my hands.....

Jewel's leg straightened out and she went down.....total charlie horse.

I quietly said...

"Did you like that?"

Jewel: "nnnnoooo...." in pain grabbing her asscheek

me: "You ever want me to do that again?"

Jewel: "Noooo...." crying , still holding her asscheek

Me: "Then don't EVER put your hands on anyone in this house... if you have ANY problem, come to me and I'll fix it."

Jewel:" Ookkkkaayyy.... mmhhh" ... still holding her asscheek... now tears are flowing.

Me: "I will tell your mom what happened, if she gets mad, you will never come here again, I don't play that mess."

We then had a long discussion about it all... Jewel apologized to Nia, I hugged Jewel and we all made up and baked cookies... Jewel doesn't hit anymore, and now she stopped fighting on the playground because I forced her to start to talk and use words instead of her fists like she did before.

Jewel always comes to my home and she always asks her mom if she can stay longer.. we like her company.

So those were my experiences.... they are controversial, but in both cases the spankings were effective... I did break all my rules with poor Jewel, but that was an extreme circumstance that I wasn't even expecting or prepared for. I think I could have done way better... but her mom wasn't upset. That totally shocked me... I expected a punch in the face honestly, instead I got a thank you. Poor Jewel... but it was a quick fix because it hit home to her that violence is not an answer. She doesn't hit anymore.

I don't think I had to spank anyone since then... with Jewel that was 3 years ago. The kids always listen and get time-outs or are just spoken to in most cases.

Love it.

You know what's funny about the last part of this, is my nieces and nephews were the EXACT same way. "When's Uncle Matt coming back over"? These kids were 3,5 and 6.

It always blew their parent's minds and they would literally ask me, "why do the kids like you so much when you're the only one who disciplines them like that"? (Like I'm the only one who is "mean" to them).

Totally blows my mind that some people can't figure that stuff out together. Kids need and want rules. It doesn't mean you have to beat them into submission to get them to respect those rules. But you're their parent, not their friend.

[Edited 4/28/11 6:58am]

The kids feel safe around you, because you instill a sense of fairness and consistency...

its ironic. But kids need to feel that you are fair and will listen to them.

damosuzuki said:

I always stay out of these discussions because I’m not a parent and I never, ever, ever want to be one, but the book I’m reading (How We Know What Isn’t So by Thomas Gilovich) has a section that’s relevant, so I’m just going to quote directly that passage below. The high-level summary of his point is that extreme behaviour, good or bad, will regress to the mean, which results in parents getting false positive results from their actions: praise for good acts appears to result in reduction of good acts, and punishment for bad acts seems to result in abatement of bad acts, when all that is happening is the child is regressing to his average behaviour.

The regression fallacy also plays a role in shaping parents’ and teachers’ beliefs about the relative effectiveness of reward and punishment in producing desired behaviour and learning. Psychologists have known for some time that rewarding desirable responses is generally more effective in shaping behaviour than punishing undesirable responses. However, the average person tends to find this fact surprising, and punishment has been the preferred reinforce for the majority of parents in both modern society and in earlier periods. One explanation for this discrepancy between common practice and the recommendation of psychologists is that regression effects may mask the true effectiveness of reward, and spuriously boost the apparent effectiveness of punishment. Rewards are most likely to be given following another person’s extraordinarily good performance. However, regression guarantees that on the average such extraordinary performances will be followed by deterioration. The reward will thus appear ineffective or counter-productive. In contrast, because bad performances tend to be followed by improvement, any punishment meted out after a disappointing performance will appear to have been beneficial. Regression effects, in other words, serve to punish the administration of reward, and to reward the administration of punishment.

How We Know What Isn’t So – Thomas Gilovich

Interesting... but who uses spanking as the ONLY form of discipline?

that's crazy... put that parent in jail! I may need to read this because one paragraph seems to do this book no justice.

heck even parents that do not spank do not always use one form of discipline either, they may bargain, remove privileges, reward, talk to... etc. I think it depends, this is all so complex.

Most parents that do spank effectively only do so for measures that involve safety issues just as Fauxie and fenwick described.

Never have and never will hit a child ~ and YES ... I can say NEVER

Vendetta1 said:

I'm against it but I think it would be a bit foolish to comment on how other parents raise their kids.

Agreed

Vendetta1 said:

I'm against it but I think it would be a bit foolish to comment on how other parents raise their kids.

I don't think the parental non-spankers are judging any parent that does spank... or vice versa.

I think it would be good for me to hear how a non-spanker deals with safety issues that come up in child-rearing. I think much can be learned from posts of that sort.

People just come in and say "I don't spank" nothing else... I think it robs of us provocative discussion and possible teaching oppurtunity. IHMO

Mach said:

<--- noticed her girl hotgritz shat out a doozy of a thread and just left it...

also knows that there is no way of parents NOT coming off critical of one another no matter where that stand on this issue... but I tried.

PunkMistress said:

These threads always bring in the sanctimonious non-parents.

STFU already.

Fauxie, you qualify as a parent (which means you know those kids need a smack every now and then) and therefore don't have to STFU.

Thanks, I appreciate the exemption.

We do feel pretty much like parents, having Nong New in our care for probably 6-14 hours of every day. Golf too, when he's here. Geez, we just got back from taking Golf back to his mother's family's house. It's just heartbreaking. Not because we'll miss him, which of course we will. He's been with us for 2 months. He's got to go back to school though, and he'll be here again towards the end of the year. It's heartbreaking because of seeing how Golf and New deal with it, wondering exactly what they're thinking inside. Golf went quiet as he usually does a couple of hours before we part ways. He deals with it better than he used to, now that he's 7, but I'm not sure what his life is like over there (in Banpong, an hour and a half from Bkk). His grandma basically extorts money from us in return for letting us see him. We feed him, take him to nice places, and buy him all new clothes and school stuff to go back with every time, and yet for some reason she expects us to give her money just for her. It's absurd. Anyway, I've digressed. Golf never wants to go back, just clams up, and he generally seems quite a sad kid beneath it all anyway, probably from confusion about his parents splitting up a few years ago. It's hard to watch him leave. New went with us, but had no idea really what was happening until about 10 mins after we said goodbye to Golf. He was just looking up the street where Golf had left on the motorbike. On the bus on our way back home he was gazing out of the window asking "where is Golf?". He's only 3, and he must get so used to having his half-brother, who he idolises, around for 2 months. How can you make it better for a 3 year old? He hugged me so tightly on the way home. I hate to think of him hurting and confused inside. For the next week or so he'll cry when he wakes up and can't find Golf. Anyway, I know this is all off-topic. Just needed to share.

.

[Edited 4/28/11 8:04am]

I think the highest goal of a parent is to teach a child self-discipline. Mommy and daddy won't always be around to guide a kid -- much less to spank them. To ensure my daughter can (not necessarily will, but can) work through the logic of action, consequence and restraint when I'm not around, then, my chief mode of encouraging self-discipline is to talk to her -- until we're both blue in the face if necessary and until she can clearly articulate back to me why she's in trouble and will possibly face further consequences... even if she ain't altogether feeling it. And I'm always certain to tell her what a smarter alternative action would have been for future reference. I suspect too many parents forget that important part.

I haven't officially removed spanking from my repertoire. But I think it's good mainly for the immediate curbing of some extraordinarily egregious or dangerous instance; a sort of Hiroshima and Nagasaki of parenting. Like those bombings, given the potential long-term fallout of hitting my kid -- and the fact present conduct pretty much never truly warrants it -- I just don't go there as a matter of course.

Lammastide said:

This is a topic that twirls me around in circles. My own parenting will most certainly come up for critisism. It is basically against the law to hit your kids. You can be reported for that to child pertective services and although you won't go to jail, you will have those people in your life for a while.

Now, this is my problem. My parents did not have to spank me hardly at all when I got to be school age. I knew my mother's rules and that she had limits and I knew when her eyes looked like this , I had a mere 5 seconds to straighten my ass out and fly right.

Unfortunately those of us mama'ed by someone who used this method effectively will want to use it. When we can't we don't necessarily do well without it. I spend far too much talking, pleading, shouting time for my taste. It has been difficult to learn a decent method and use it effectively.

I do not think constantly shouting at your kids is effective. It shows lack of true control. In my head my job is to prepare my child for adulthood. When she is an adult her boss, landlord etc will not keep giving her chances and shout at her. They will simply get her out of their lives.

I want my daughter to learn cause and effect and like Lammastide said, self discipline, self motivation etc.

Serious said:

Lammastide said:

I think the highest goal of a parent is to teach a child self-discipline. Mommy and daddy won't always be around to guide a kid -- much less to spank them. To ensure my daughter can (not necessarily will, but can) work through the logic of action, consequence and restraint when I'm not around, then, my chief mode of encouraging self-discipline is to talk to her -- until we're both blue in the face if necessary and until she can clearly articulate back to me why she's in trouble and will possibly face further consequences... even if she ain't altogether feeling it. And I'm always certain to tell her what a smarter alternative action would have been for future reference. I suspect too many parents forget that important part.

I haven't officially removed spanking from my repertoire. But I think it's good mainly for the immediate curbing of some extraordinarily egregious or dangerous instance; a sort of Hiroshima and Nagasaki of parenting. Like those bombings, given the potential long-term fallout of hitting my kid -- and the fact present conduct pretty much never truly warrants it -- I just don't go there as a matter of course.

I can understand that parents sometimes loose their control in a situation like that or don't find any other way to deal with such a situation. Still I doubt that most kids who are spanked are spanked in situations when their life or health or that of somebody else is in danger.

I wish you weren't correct, but I bet you are.

It's a matter of commitment to me: commitment of restraint, creativity, patience, time, etc. It'd be so easy to, say, pop my daughter on the butt instead of reading her [img:$uid]http://www.mjoai.com/forum/images/smilies/ohnoyoudidnt.gif[/img:$uid] if, say, she was misbehaving at the grocery store. But I think I signed up for the challenge when I made her.

Deadflow3r said:

This is a topic that twirls me around in circles. My own parenting will most certainly come up for critisism. It is basically against the law to hit your kids. You can be reported for that to child pertective services and although you won't go to jail, you will have those people in your life for a while.

Now, this is my problem. My parents did not have to spank me hardly at all when I got to be school age. I knew my mother's rules and that she had limits and I knew when her eyes looked like this , I had a mere 5 seconds to straighten my ass out and fly right.

Unfortunately those of us mama'ed by someone who used this method effectively will want to use it. When we can't we don't necessarily do well without it. I spend far too much talking, pleading, shouting time for my taste. It has been difficult to learn a decent method and use it effectively.

I do not think constantly shouting at your kids is effective. It shows lack of true control. In my head my job is to prepare my child for adulthood. When she is an adult her boss, landlord etc will not keep giving her chances and shout at her. They will simply get her out of their lives.

I want my daughter to learn cause and effect and like Lammastide said, self discipline, self motivation etc.

I hear ya. It's not always easy, believe me. And I think you're right: It's almost second nature to spank when you were spanked. And I definitely was spanked.

I'm curious: How old is your kid? I concede that my Pissed-Off Lawyer Parenting Method™ may be tougher to introduce if a child wasn't born into it.