I've always felt that the whole "reclaiming" or "empowering" those words are kind of bullshit. If some ingunt-ass folk see us calling each other "fag" or some black folk calling each other the "n" word, they don't think "Wow, look at how empowered they are!"
They turn to each other and say "SEE???"
That said, I've gone back and forth so many times. Do I quit saying certain words? Do I not give a fuck? In the end I just don't care to carry the responsibility of folk educating themselves on my shoulders, so fuck it...this bitch will carry on being incorrect.
I do stay away from "fag"/"faggot" tho. Just don't like to use it at all.
And should it, on a rare occassion, slip out, I regret it immediately.
[Edited 4/21/11 12:55pm]
100%, unequivocally correct. Another interesting aspect of that is what happens when 2 people of the same minority get heated with each other and use those terms as weapons when they were terms of endearment 3 minutes prior.
Good point. I don't think seizing certain words gives us exclusive ownership of them, and I don't think it robs those words of their bite for all time. We certainly can use them to hurt one-another, and we need to be darned aware of what our using them communicates to mixed company. But it can condition us to recognize the words, themselves, have little power outside of their context and how we choose to be engaged by them. And it can be wonderfully disarming, I've seen: A female friend of mine once was at a gas station. She stole some guy's place in line for a pump. (Which was a rotten thing to do.) The guy got all pissy and called her a "c*nt" out of his car window. But instead of being wounded, she looked him dead in the face and was like, "Dude, I'm black. We don't use that word. I'd be a bitch!" He was outraged, but he had nothing else. He simply drove off in a huff.
Take that forward and explain how it relates to people today, though?
I don't shave my body (not into that kinda look), but I can understand if people don't like the presence of body hair. Plenty of people out there are more sexually attracted to Fabio than they are Tom Selleck.
I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.
To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.
I wonder if you're arguing two sides of the same coin. Spinlight, you seem to be saying at its core that some delusional drive or insistence toward a stereotypical masculinity is self-loathing, because it aspires toward what we think of as "straight" and denies who many of us are. On the other hand, Efan, you seem to be seeing (as I do) some lingering vestiges of a sort of "dolled up" gayness that pans out in waxing, primping, being prettified... often (albeit not always, I'll say) as a sort of rebellion to heteronormative masculinity.
In a sense, both can be detrimental inasmuch as they force us into theatre. Hell, I don't look or act like Paul Bunyan or Twiggy! Somewhere we gotta make room to honor guys like me... especially because most of us are like me!
I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.
To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.
I wonder if you're arguing two sides of the same coin. Spinlight, you seem to be saying at its core that some delusional drive toward a stereotypical masculinity is self-loathing, because it aspires toward what we think of as "straight" and denies who many of us are. On the other hand, Efan, you seem to be seeing (as I do) some lingering vestiges of a sort of "dolled up" gayness that pans out in waxing, primping, being prettified... almost as a sort of rebellion to heteronormative masculity.
In a sense, both can be detrimental inasmuch as they force us into theatre. Hell, I don't look like Paul Bunyan or Twiggy. Somewhere we gotta make room to honor guys like me... especially because most of us are like me!
Perhaps so. I don't exactly agree with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but...meh.
and this is why i never managed to be queer. sucking a nob or taking it up the wrong'un, fine...all this cliquey categorizing and worrying about what label applies...that's just too ghey for me.
I wonder if you're arguing two sides of the same coin. Spinlight, you seem to be saying at its core that some delusional drive toward a stereotypical masculinity is self-loathing, because it aspires toward what we think of as "straight" and denies who many of us are. On the other hand, Efan, you seem to be seeing (as I do) some lingering vestiges of a sort of "dolled up" gayness that pans out in waxing, primping, being prettified... almost as a sort of rebellion to heteronormative masculity.
In a sense, both can be detrimental inasmuch as they force us into theatre. Hell, I don't look like Paul Bunyan or Twiggy. Somewhere we gotta make room to honor guys like me... especially because most of us are like me!
Perhaps so. I don't exactly agree with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but...meh.
and this is why i never managed to be queer. sucking a nob or taking it up the wrong'un, fine...all this cliquey categorizing and worrying about what label applies...that's just too ghey for me.
Perhaps so. I don't exactly agree with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but...meh.
Why do you think guys do the shaving, waxing etc?
I wouldn't call it being prettified. I think there is a very unhealthy obsession with youth in gay culture. So much so that there is an overwhelming desire by many to look like 12-year-olds.
and this is why i never managed to be queer. sucking a nob or taking it up the wrong'un, fine...all this cliquey categorizing and worrying about what label applies...that's just too ghey for me.
Take that forward and explain how it relates to people today, though?
I don't shave my body (not into that kinda look), but I can understand if people don't like the presence of body hair. Plenty of people out there are more sexually attracted to Fabio than they are Tom Selleck.
I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.
To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.
See, something doesn't sit well with me about the idea of criticizing what gets people off. I worked in porn for quite some time from behind the desk/camera and I really had some illusions shattered when I first began the job. I don't so much care to psychoanalyze people's sexual attraction because its a bit of a nonstarter and if you were to drop some real truth on people they would shut down (cognitive dissonance). And even then, not everyone's sexual attraction is tied to nature/nurture, Mr Freud.
I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.
To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.
See, something doesn't sit well with me about the idea of criticizing what gets people off. I worked in porn for quite some time from behind the desk/camera and I really had some illusions shattered when I first began the job. I don't so much care to psychoanalyze people's sexual attraction because its a bit of a nonstarter and if you were to drop some real truth on people they would shut down (cognitive dissonance). And even then, not everyone's sexual attraction is tied to nature/nurture, Mr Freud.
But earlier you mentioned not liking when guys on gay dating websites mention "If I wanted to date a woman..." I don't see how that doesn't fit in with what you're saying as well.
See, something doesn't sit well with me about the idea of criticizing what gets people off. I worked in porn for quite some time from behind the desk/camera and I really had some illusions shattered when I first began the job. I don't so much care to psychoanalyze people's sexual attraction because its a bit of a nonstarter and if you were to drop some real truth on people they would shut down (cognitive dissonance). And even then, not everyone's sexual attraction is tied to nature/nurture, Mr Freud.
But earlier you mentioned not liking when guys on gay dating websites mention "If I wanted to date a woman..." I don't see how that doesn't fit in with what you're saying as well.
Because I don't buy the concept that flamboyant gay guys are akin to women. I know all too well that even the nelliest queen could make hamburger meat out of my butthole so when someone makes a disparaging comment like that, I take immediate notice.
I wouldn't call it being prettified. I think there is a very unhealthy obsession with youth in gay culture. So much so that there is an overwhelming desire by many to look like 12-year-olds.
OK. I can go with that. I do think much of how we...um... "package" ourselves has to do with looking much younger. But it also has to do with being some aesthetic ideal -- primped, polished, beautiful, even in our maturity -- you know, like, say, the Statue of David or some image of Apollo. The point is it's all so presentational. How many of us actually are like that without committing a sizeable chunk of our mind to it?
Though all Asians are bad drivers. This is a scientific fact.
Couldn't resist.
This thread is so full of win now.
You're a real fucker. You act like you own this place--ParanoidAndroid <-- about as witty as this princess gets! I hope everyone pays more attention to Sags posts--sweething
I tend to have more issue with the word "straight" in describing what's appealing or what we're seeking in someone or striving to be.
This is why I think a lot (maybe most) folk really mean nothing by it, but I don't think it sends off a great message about us.
For example, I might say "You wouldn't know Ron was gay if you just ran into him and didn't know him." (often the case with students at work). But that's not the same as "Ron is straight-acting." IMO.
When folk are seeking mates/playmates and say they want a "straight-acting" dude, in that context it does irk me. Just say you're not into femme guys and call it a day. I don't get why "straight" has to be brought into it.
I hear what you're saying, but in that sense, why is it okay to call a guy "femme"? If we're bothered by using the term "straight," shouldn't we be equally bothered when a gay guy calls another gay guy "girl"? We're not girls. We're guys.
I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
It's as worse as calling someone "femme" . Nothing wrong with androgyny, femininity or masculinity but I honestly think if you're gonna boast about being like that, then there's some deep scars inside you. Like just be who you are regardless of your sexuality.
Because beyond being simply masculine, it causes people to further refine their behaviors to that of a heterosexual male. It puts pressure on non-feminine guys to like stereotypically macho things. It's basically just a race that a gay man, no matter his tendencies, cannot win.
I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?
I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.
Uh - You said "football."
As a gay man who LOVES football, college and pro, I'm left with straight friends. Most of my life my male friends have been hetero because of things we have in common.
I hate shopping.
I've been called the 'straightest gay man' anyone knows too many times to count.
I don't use the term "straight acting." I do say I'm masculine.
Being around hetero men isn't a great way to find a partner, but dealing with men who can't understand why I watch football is equally irritating.
I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
I'm actually not sure why I typed the word "femme". It's not really a term I use (makes me think of old time expressions), but I did, so my bad there.
As I posted in other posts, I refer to demeanor as "masculine" or "feminine" (or sometimes in between, as I consider myself ).
I don't have issue with calling a dude "girrrrl" if I have that familiarity and rapport with him because I consider it humor and it's not indicative of "being this is better than that" whereas "I want a man that's straight-acting" does, for me. I would also never just randomly call someone I didn't know (gay or straight) "girl" or "bitch" or anything other than by their name.
I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?
I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.
Uh - You said "football."
As a gay man who LOVES football, college and pro, I'm left with straight friends. Most of my life my male friends have been hetero because of things we have in common.
I hate shopping.
I've been called the 'straightest gay man' anyone knows too many times to count.
I don't use the term "straight acting." I do say I'm masculine.
Being around hetero men isn't a great way to find a partner, but dealing with men who can't understand why I watch football is equally irritating.
I hate hearing that.
And can totally understand why the alternative is irritating. But is it the only alternative?
Are there no sport nights or anything around you? Gay sport teams? I've seen a lot of gay dudes online talkin how they're into sports and stuff. Dating sites? There's gotta be a way to meet dudes with those interests.
I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?
I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.
Uh - You said "football."
As a gay man who LOVES football, college and pro, I'm left with straight friends. Most of my life my male friends have been hetero because of things we have in common.
I hate shopping.
I've been called the 'straightest gay man' anyone knows too many times to count.
I don't use the term "straight acting." I do say I'm masculine.
Being around hetero men isn't a great way to find a partner, but dealing with men who can't understand why I watch football is equally irritating.
Yeah I love sports too. That's why I hate the stereotyping. Not all gays are in the boxes that are usually put with them and the "types". There's gay men who love sports, who love hip-hop, who rather go home than go shopping. The archetype gay stereotype is someone who's ALL into fashion (I like fashion too but not to the degree that that's all I spent any time on...in fact I only admire it for its beauty unless it need criticism), someone who loves Broadway/the arts in general, and are usually "punks", as my parents say. I find that some younger gay men of all races sometimes live up to the stereotype and yet they probably have more sides than it's being led on. That's the confusing thing.
" How dare you ask us gays about ourselves! Did you check off our bucket list of things not to ask us? You obviously hate the ghey and this thread should be locked, you ignorant ass breeder! There will be no more discussion of gheyness here " :sassygaywin:
You're a real fucker. You act like you own this place--ParanoidAndroid <-- about as witty as this princess gets! I hope everyone pays more attention to Sags posts--sweething
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And God bless 'em.
"Dude, I'm black. We don't use that word. I'd be a 
).
I love new words.
" :sassygaywin: