Efan said:

johnart said:

I tend to have more issue with the word "straight" in describing what's appealing or what we're seeking in someone or striving to be.

This is why I think a lot (maybe most) folk really mean nothing by it, but I don't think it sends off a great message about us.

For example, I might say "You wouldn't know Ron was gay if you just ran into him and didn't know him." (often the case with students at work). But that's not the same as "Ron is straight-acting." IMO.

When folk are seeking mates/playmates and say they want a "straight-acting" dude, in that context it does irk me. Just say you're not into femme guys and call it a day. I don't get why "straight" has to be brought into it.

I hear what you're saying, but in that sense, why is it okay to call a guy "femme"? If we're bothered by using the term "straight," shouldn't we be equally bothered when a gay guy calls another gay guy "girl"? We're not girls. We're guys.

Not to me. One doesn't bother me because one is not descriptive of an orientation. Again, context is important with this sort of thing. It's nearly impossible to draw a difinitive rule on expressions/slang and how folk use or relate to words.

I use the words feminine and masculine to describe demeanor. I use these words whether talking about a male or a female.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:14pm]

Efan said:

johnart said:

I tend to have more issue with the word "straight" in describing what's appealing or what we're seeking in someone or striving to be.

This is why I think a lot (maybe most) folk really mean nothing by it, but I don't think it sends off a great message about us.

For example, I might say "You wouldn't know Ron was gay if you just ran into him and didn't know him." (often the case with students at work). But that's not the same as "Ron is straight-acting." IMO.

When folk are seeking mates/playmates and say they want a "straight-acting" dude, in that context it does irk me. Just say you're not into femme guys and call it a day. I don't get why "straight" has to be brought into it.

I hear what you're saying, but in that sense, why is it okay to call a guy "femme"? If we're bothered by using the term "straight," shouldn't we be equally bothered when a gay guy calls another gay guy "girl"? We're not girls. We're guys.

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

Efan said:

Spinlight said:

Of course it is putting up a pretense. I've always thought that. In fact, I think some femme guys actually look poorly towards masculine/"straight acting" guys because they feel it is them pandering to heterosexual mores.

How is it pretense?

Because beyond being simply masculine, it causes people to further refine their behaviors to that of a heterosexual male. It puts pressure on non-feminine guys to like stereotypically macho things. It's basically just a race that a gay man, no matter his tendencies, cannot win.

vainandy said:

Efan said:

I hear what you're saying, but in that sense, why is it okay to call a guy "femme"? If we're bothered by using the term "straight," shouldn't we be equally bothered when a gay guy calls another gay guy "girl"? We're not girls. We're guys.

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

But see, this is a prime example of what I mean about not being able to make definitive rules on words and their use. I use bitch too and my friends call me bitch (here and RL), but there are females who will stand up and say "Hey, this is a term derrogatory of females, please do not do this"

Most words are gonna have different meanings and impact on different folk. It'll always be this way.

If it's not actively self-loathing, I do think it still does at least two detrimental things:

1) It assigns behavior to certain groups, undercutting the actual diversity of those groups.

2) It submits to behavioral heteronormativity -- and, yes, most often to the supposed superior appeal of things hetero. Here I can't altogether blame LGBs for wanting to "pass" or align ourselves with others who can/do, because let's face it: It ain't easy being pink. But as long as we pander to this dynamic, we necessarily contribute to our own marginalization.

Beneath all of this, of course, is another more primal social ill: flat-out sexism. We still carry on with things "butch," "masculine," etc. being good; things "femme," "queeny," "fishy," etc. being not quite as good (except for certain very controlled contexts wherein there's an assumed utility in stereotypically feminine things)... and it all stems from not just discerning a difference, but a stratification, among masculinity and femininity.

This all is something we engage to our detriment, I think.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:30pm]

Lammastide said:

If it's not actively self-loathing, I do think it still does at least two detrimental things:

1) It assigns behavior to certain groups, undercutting the actual diversity of those groups.

2) It submits to behavioral heteronormativity -- and, yes, most often to the supposed superior appeal of things hetero. Here I can't altogether blame LGBs for wanting to "pass" or align ourselves with others who can/do, because let's face it: It ain't easy being pink. But as long as we pander to this dynamic, we necessarily contribute to our own marginalization.

Beneath all of this, of course, is another more primal social ill: flat-out sexism. We still carry on with things "butch," "masculine," etc. being good; things "femme," "queeny," "fishy," etc. being bad (except for certain specific contexts wherein there's an assumed utility in stereotypically feminine things)... and it all stems from not just discerning a difference, but a stratification, among masculinity and femininity.

This all is something we engage to our detriment, I think.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:27pm]

Well-said.

Spinlight said:

Lammastide said:

If it's not actively self-loathing, I do think it still does at least two detrimental things:

1) It assigns behavior to certain groups, undercutting the actual diversity of those groups.

2) It submits to behavioral heteronormativity -- and, yes, most often to the supposed superior appeal of things hetero. Here I can't altogether blame LGBs for wanting to "pass" or align ourselves with others who can/do, because let's face it: It ain't easy being pink. But as long as we pander to this dynamic, we necessarily contribute to our own marginalization.

Beneath all of this, of course, is another more primal social ill: flat-out sexism. We still carry on with things "butch," "masculine," etc. being good; things "femme," "queeny," "fishy," etc. being bad (except for certain specific contexts wherein there's an assumed utility in stereotypically feminine things)... and it all stems from not just discerning a difference, but a stratification, among masculinity and femininity.

This all is something we engage to our detriment, I think.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:27pm]

Well-said.

Lammie is the most eloquent mo-fo in this place. I'm not even sure if I knew "heteronormativity" was a word.

I love he.

vainandy said:

Efan said:

I hear what you're saying, but in that sense, why is it okay to call a guy "femme"? If we're bothered by using the term "straight," shouldn't we be equally bothered when a gay guy calls another gay guy "girl"? We're not girls. We're guys.

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

johnart said:

Spinlight said:

Well-said.

Lammie is the most eloquent mo-fo in this place. I'm not even sure if I knew "heteronormativity" was a word.

I love he.

I just got in a bitchfight with World-Reknowned Artist Militant about heteronormativity in one of those Gaga threads. Talk about shattering illusions. I remember the first time I realized what heteronormativity was and how pervasive it is. When you cast a light on that particular shadow, some really nasty critters scurry away.

johnart said:

vainandy said:

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

But see, this is a prime example of what I mean about not being able to make definitive rules on words and their use. I use bitch too and my friends call me bitch (here and RL), but there are females who will stand up and say "Hey, this is a term derrogatory of females, please do not do this"

Most words are gonna have different meanings and impact on different folk. It'll always be this way.

I usually tell them to shut the fuck up and be proud to be a bitch rather than a weak little goodie two shoes.

No, but with every word, somebody is going to be offended by it. Me and my best friend (another gay guy) call each other bulldagger all the time and we were at a party once and this other gay guy was offended by it. However, all the actual bulldaggers were laughing and carrying on with us and calling us bulldaggers also. Of course that guy is one of those from up North who thinks he's sooooo much better than us down here and feels he has to "teach us how to conduct ourselves" since we're not as classy as the all elite "North". I simply told him "Bitch, stop being all polically correct, this ain't London, England and your ass ain't Princess Di. Bitch, that big ass lump in your pants ain't no dick, it's a strap-on so you're a bulldagger too". That whole place went up in laughter.

.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:52pm]

Spinlight said:

vainandy said:

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

I have to kinda agree with this. I don't generally use those words because... well... I think my vocabulary offers me other options. But I will and occasionally do go there when I need a cultural shorthand and I know exactly to whom I'm speaking and how I'll be received.

Words are so beholden to context. I think it's ingenious how objectified groups seem to know this and can reappropriate the most brutal epithets into silly little terms of endearment. On the other hand, I've heard my own birth name uttered in such a way that I've taken WILD offense ...because I knew there was total contempt in the way it was said.

I guess at the end of the day we really do need to recognize foremost the environment in which we use certain language, because it can pack a punch if we don't pay attention.

Spinlight said:

vainandy said:

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

I strongly agree with this as well.

I've always felt that the whole "reclaiming" or "empowering" those words are kind of bullshit. If some ingunt-ass folk see us calling each other "fag" or some black folk calling each other the "n" word, they don't think "Wow, look at how empowered they are!"

They turn to each other and say "SEE???"

That said, I've gone back and forth so many times. Do I quit saying certain words? Do I not give a fuck? In the end I just don't care to carry the responsibility of folk educating themselves on my shoulders, so fuck it...this bitch will carry on being incorrect.

I do stay away from "fag"/"faggot" tho. Just don't like to use it at all.

And should it, on a rare occassion, slip out, I regret it immediately.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:55pm]

Spinlight said:

Efan said:

How is it pretense?

Because beyond being simply masculine, it causes people to further refine their behaviors to that of a heterosexual male. It puts pressure on non-feminine guys to like stereotypically macho things. It's basically just a race that a gay man, no matter his tendencies, cannot win.

I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?

I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.

johnart said:

Spinlight said:

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

I strongly agree with this as well.

I've always felt that the whole "reclaiming" or "empowering" those words are kind of bullshit. If some ingunt-ass folk see us calling each other "fag" or some black folk calling each other the "n" word, they don't think "Wow, look at how empowered they are!"

They turn to each other and say "SEE???"

That said, I've gone back and forth so many times. Do I quit saying certain words? Do I not give a fuck? In the end I just don't care to carry the responsibility of folk educating themselves on my shoulders, so fuck it...this bitch will carry on being incorrect.

I do stay away from "fag"/"faggot" tho. Just don't like to use it at all.

And should it, on a rare occassion, slip out, I regret it immediately.

[Edited 4/21/11 12:55pm]

100%, unequivocally correct. Another interesting aspect of that is what happens when 2 people of the same minority get heated with each other and use those terms as weapons when they were terms of endearment 3 minutes prior.

I'm down for colloquialisms. I love slang. But the only slur I am guilty of using in that context is "bitch". I cannot even stomach using the N word or F word maliciously. Hell, I cannot stand it when my gay friends call me any variation of that word. I don't mind it when someone calls me "gurrl" cuz usually then I respond by leaning back and saying "GURRRRRRL, SHOOOO" right back. So what? lol.

This is one of those circular "arguments" though because people will always make excuses. A good friend of mine is a straight college kid who is about as good an example of a moderate hetero as I consider myself to be a moderate homo (sociopolitically), but he uses the N word like it's nothing. We've had long, drawn out discussions that, at times, got heated because I could not fathom nor stand the use of it in my presence. And it wasn't just used in the kind of way one would use "bitch" (though I do understand some people take equal offense), I mean he was USING it. His argument was that if it walks like a ___ and talks like a ____ then it's a _____. His argument was also that just because one ____ acts like a ____ doesn't mean they all do and are all _____. (Man that is a lot of eggshell walking in one paragraph.)

Efan said:

Spinlight said:

Because beyond being simply masculine, it causes people to further refine their behaviors to that of a heterosexual male. It puts pressure on non-feminine guys to like stereotypically macho things. It's basically just a race that a gay man, no matter his tendencies, cannot win.

I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?

I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.

All you need to do is go look at some profile sites and you can see clear examples of people saying things like, "If I wanted to date a woman..." etc. This puts pressure on those people to change their ways or they are not accepted by their own people.

For a group that feels continually marginalized at every corner other than entertainment (and even then...), it is a tough pill to swallow as it pays lip service to the idea that gay is bad if you don't conform to heteronormative ideals. I doubt someone will confront you and call you out for not liking sports, but I know its just another brick in the wall.

johnart said:

1. Do I not give a fuck?

2. In the end I just don't care to carry the responsibility of folk educating themselves on my shoulders

1. Never. Never stop giving a fuck. The world would be an utterly boring place if people stopped giving a fuck.

2. I think the responsibility to become educated (about anything) does lie with each individual. If someone chooses to walk through life as an insulting, ignorant, dumb ass, that's on them. But I have no problem calling someone on their bullshit in a way that, hopefully, might encourage or inspire them to pull their head out of their ass and learn something.

Spinlight said:

This is one of those circular "arguments" though because people will always make excuses.

Uuhyep. Which always leaves me wondering...

Do they really believe what they're saying?

Do they know its offensive and hurtful?

Do they know and STILL believe what they're saying?

Do they know and ACTUALLY just not care and are only using those excuses as a way to keep using those words?

It makes my head hurt. None of the words in question are allowed in my home. I WILL tell someone to leave and not feel bad about it if they are not able to control their own vocabulary.

Strangely, the only exception to that is when guys call each other bitch over something that happens during a gaming session. And in that context it elicits a round of laughter as no one is offended.

[Edited 4/21/11 13:23pm]

Spinlight said:

vainandy said:

I can't stand for somebody to call me "girl". Not only does it sounds sickening but it sounds weak. It makes us sound like we're little confused motherfuckers that don't know what gender we are. I'm fine with "bitch" though because a man can be a bitch. A bitch is more an attitude and a bitch is a term of power. Somebody would think twice about fucking with a bitch but they wouldn't hesitate to slap a "girl" upside her head.

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

That's true but some people are sooooo hellbent on trying to look "politacally correct" that any word is offensive to them.

As for the words "nigger" and "faggot" though, those words have a history of being used on people who they believe is beneath them and for ages (in America anyway), blacks and gays have been discriminated against and haven't been the ones in power so those words definately have a lot more of a sting than the word "bitch". From what I've seen with the word "bitch", it has been used by men for ages who are jealous of strong women who will go up against them. Women in power or women that may have more than a man has so he gets jealous and calls her a bitch. Or maybe used on an extremely mean woman. I see the difference in words like "bitch" as opposed to "nigger" and "faggot", is that the woman being called a bitch is usually the one with more power than a man which threatens him. Blacks and gays have always been considered powerless so those hate words definately have more of a sting.

Never mind. Somebody finally posted.

[Edited 4/21/11 13:57pm]

vainandy said:

Spinlight said:

"Bitch" is not a term of power anymore than "nigger" or "faggot" is. You have the freedom to assign whatever meaning you want to those words, but that doesn't mean the meaning is broadcast to everyone evenly.

What that boils down to is knowing your audience. If the people you are around accept you and understand your context, it's likely "okay" to use those words however you feel.

That's true but some people are sooooo hellbent on trying to look "politacally correct" that any word is offensive to them.

As for the words "nigger" and "faggot" though, those words have a history of being used on people who they believe is beneath them and for ages (in America anyway), blacks and gays have been discriminated against and haven't been the ones in power so those words definately have a lot more of a sting than the word "bitch". From what I've seen with the word "bitch", it has been used by men for ages who are jealous of strong women who will go up against them. Women in power or women that may have more than a man has so he gets jealous and calls her a bitch. Or maybe used on an extremely mean woman. I see the difference in words like "bitch" as opposed to "nigger" and "faggot", is that the woman being called a bitch is usually the one with more power than a man which threatens him. Blacks and gays have always been considered powerless so those hate words definately have more of a sting.

Well, I think part of the indignation about the word "bitch" is because it objectifies women.

A recent episode of 30 Rock touched on it with humor by suggesting that men felt women could not be considered reliable because all of a sudden their period would kick in and change their POV/mood/emotions.

I even remember when Hillary Clinton was going for the nom against Obama, one of the "taboo" arguments was that a woman couldn't handle that position because she would be too swayed by her emotions. (Thankfully, Pelosi has shown us you can still be carved out of ice and remain objective.)

If someone simply discounts a woman because she's "just a bitch" it is greviously offensive to some. Likewise, when you call a man a bitch, the description casts feminine qualities (or qualities often associated with women) in a negative light. You say one thing, they hear something else. These qualities are echoed in some of the other civil rights-based threads here where someone will say something and the reply is, "What do you REALLY mean?" One could explore the act of calling a man a bitch to mean that they are acting like a woman and the way a woman acts is bad. etc.

Sorry for the wordiness.

Spinlight said:

Efan said:

I still don't get what you mean here. Are you saying that someone who is masculine and gay (or "straight-acting," as some might say) is really putting on a pretense?

I honestly don't get this. I've never seen that part of the gay community that puts pressure on anyone to like football or encourages whatever typically straight behavior might entail. I more often feel that the opposite is the case from within the gay community at large.

All you need to do is go look at some profile sites and you can see clear examples of people saying things like, "If I wanted to date a woman..." etc. This puts pressure on those people to change their ways or they are not accepted by their own people.

For a group that feels continually marginalized at every corner other than entertainment (and even then...), it is a tough pill to swallow as it pays lip service to the idea that gay is bad if you don't conform to heteronormative ideals. I doubt someone will confront you and call you out for not liking sports, but I know its just another brick in the wall.

Well, I think there's a whole lot of marginalization that goes on all around the gay community (especially on dating sites, where most gay guys seem to be looking for the impossible). But your comment seems to go beyond what the OP is saying and what the immediate follow-up comments suggested. You're suggesting it's not the term "straight-acting" that's the problem; it's the behavior that looks for this that is the problem, whether those types of guys are called "masculine" or whatever. If that's the case, I could not disagree more.

Efan said:

Spinlight said:

All you need to do is go look at some profile sites and you can see clear examples of people saying things like, "If I wanted to date a woman..." etc. This puts pressure on those people to change their ways or they are not accepted by their own people.

For a group that feels continually marginalized at every corner other than entertainment (and even then...), it is a tough pill to swallow as it pays lip service to the idea that gay is bad if you don't conform to heteronormative ideals. I doubt someone will confront you and call you out for not liking sports, but I know its just another brick in the wall.

Well, I think there's a whole lot of marginalization that goes on all around the gay community (especially on dating sites, where most gay guys seem to be looking for the impossible). But your comment seems to go beyond what the OP is saying and what the immediate follow-up comments suggested. You're suggesting it's not the term "straight-acting" that's the problem; it's the behavior that looks for this that is the problem, whether those types of guys are called "masculine" or whatever. If that's the case, I could not disagree more.

Close, but my point is a little more refined than that. I do agree that part of the problem is the behavior that looks for it because I think that's a clear example of heteronormativity. It shouldn't be a factor. If you love someone, you love them regardless.

I still don't see it. Personally, I find body-shaving (unless you're a drag performer or a swimmer) to be a far more destructive force in the gay community. If people are gravitating somewhat slightly to some masculine things, it's only in small ways and after a lot of effort.

Efan said:

I still don't see it. Personally, I find body-shaving (unless you're a drag performer or a swimmer) to be a far more destructive force in the gay community. If people are gravitating somewhat slightly to some masculine things, it's only in small ways and after a lot of effort.

Indulge me.

Spinlight said:

Efan said:

I still don't see it. Personally, I find body-shaving (unless you're a drag performer or a swimmer) to be a far more destructive force in the gay community. If people are gravitating somewhat slightly to some masculine things, it's only in small ways and after a lot of effort.

Indulge me.

I think in the '80s, the gay community at large took on a very TeenBeat mindset that set the gay rights movement back decades.

Efan said:

Spinlight said:

Indulge me.

I think in the '80s, the gay community at large took on a very TeenBeat mindset that set the gay rights movement back decades.

Take that forward and explain how it relates to people today, though?

I don't shave my body (not into that kinda look), but I can understand if people don't like the presence of body hair. Plenty of people out there are more sexually attracted to Fabio than they are Tom Selleck.

Spinlight said:

Efan said:

I think in the '80s, the gay community at large took on a very TeenBeat mindset that set the gay rights movement back decades.

Take that forward and explain how it relates to people today, though?

I don't shave my body (not into that kinda look), but I can understand if people don't like the presence of body hair. Plenty of people out there are more sexually attracted to Fabio than they are Tom Selleck.

I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.

To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.

Efan said:

Spinlight said:

Take that forward and explain how it relates to people today, though?

I don't shave my body (not into that kinda look), but I can understand if people don't like the presence of body hair. Plenty of people out there are more sexually attracted to Fabio than they are Tom Selleck.

I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.

To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.

Hey, bottoms are people too.

johnart said:

Efan said:

I think that body-shaver/TeenBeat attitude prevails today. The gay community at large is still very much Team Jacob. Bunch of bottoms chasing other bottoms and pretending their "versatility" will make up for it. They've even got straight guys "manscaping," a trend I hope and pray will die soon. It's disgusting to me.

To me, Fabio is feminine, as is the gay kid who plays Jacob in the Twilight movies. When you say that plenty of people are more sexually attracted to that, I agree--I see it all the time. I can't tell you how many gay men I wanted to smack in the head when Titanic came out, because they were so obsessed with Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. Yuck. Personally, I think there is much to celebrate if even a small portion (and I think it IS a small portion) of the gay community is back to celebrating gay masculinity.

Hey, bottoms are people too.

They sure are. And God bless 'em.