Fenwick said:

I'm sure, like me, there are many ghost readers of this thread that would love to engage in this discussion further but just feel like it's going to go in circles. There's an inherent deep seated emotional connection to certain "issues" that just inevitably seem to push some people, (of any race/creed) over the edge.

I have a very good amount of respect for some of the people who have posted on both sides of this debate/discussion/argument. While I do think some of the venom has been misplaced, at risk of sounding like a Dr. Phil wannabe, I'd like to try to stir the boat in a different direction by putting somethng else out there.

If I'm being honest, after reading everything in here, I'm not so sure the hair component of the question is what has got certain people upset. It seems to be more a question of the propriety of a white person asking something about certain customs/characterisitics of black people. I very rarely enter these discussion here. Mostly because this is Prince.org and it's not what I look to talk about when I come to this site. I tried this once before and my simple questions/comparisons to the plight of others went over like a lead balloon.

I've said before my ex-wife happened to be black. That's nothing to be proud or ashamed of. We were two people who fell in love that just happened to be of different colors. I learned a lot about the black community from her, (including the "culture" of hair). There were many others aspects, far more important than hair I learned from her, but that's a story for another day. The one thing I will say is that no matter how educated/enlightened you think you are on a subject, your eyes do open up a great deal when you go to a community and still see evidence of the racial divisions from the past. As a white person, you can understand very quickly why some issues are still very sensitive.

Now - why do I say all this? Well, at risk of being ignored or (even worse) having pot shots taken at me for daring to trivialize the plight of one by comparing it to another, I'll have a go at where my head/heart take me on threads of this nature. (Sorry if that sounds cheesy).

My girlfriend now happens to be Jewish. Just like in my previous relationship, I am learning new things about a different group of people that I've never had the experience to know before. One of the customs I have become most intimately familiar with is Shabbat. At the highest level, it's pretty straight forward. Every Friday night, she and her family get together, say prayers and have dinner together. There's far more to it than that, but suffice to say, I attend almost every one and have learned to say some of the prayers. Mind you, I am not remotely interested in converting, I just think she and her family are beautiful people and it's a respectful thing to do.

Over the course of our relationship, I have asked a number of prodding questions. Perhaps the most simple would be something like, "As you've gotten older, do you view Friday's Shabbat as more an obligation or something that continues to bind your family together"?

She never for a second thought my question (or any of my questions) are rooted with any secondary designs. They are just questions aimed at trying to learn something new about someone who has different experiences than your own. Is that not a fair question to ask? Or as some have suggested/insinuated, is this the type of question that is only fair to ask of someone you know?

I guess, in the hopes of reaching anyone who has been frustrated by this thread, I'll ask my question in a more specific way. If I were to create a thread out here asking the following:

People of Jewish faith: As you grow older do you view Shabbat as more of an obligation or something that keeps you connected to your family?

Should people of Jewish heritage take great offense at my posing this question to them? Is this only something I should ask of someone I know? Why does/could/should this question offend? I think most would acknowledge Jewish people have been (and continue to be) persecuted throughout most of history. And just like the black community, there are still very strong signs of how that persecution has impacted them today.

Does the dividng line on where something becomes inappropriate stem from the race of the person asking the question or the proximity to the people they are asking it of/to? I really don't understand.

I imagine not many folks will read this entire post. I am very sorry for its' length. But I do hope it leads to some thought from those who are troubled by those of us that would naturally ask questions of our fellow human beings on this planet who come from different walks of life.

Because each group of minorities contains people who are oversensitive. Some people require constant validation that they are worthy. They might THINK they have ascended this level of their personal journey, but if they had then I presume they would be much more secure in their identity.

Though there ARE examples of people who ask loaded questions like this to black people or any other minority, this specific thread was not that. How can you speak rationally with someone whose feelings of inequality bubble right beneath the surface? Sometimes you can't walk on enough eggshells for someone. As has been seen in this thread, there are very personal issues at play here that runs much deeper than "Civil Rights".

I don't speak for any minorities (despite belonging to a handful of them), but it's a long haul to go from acknowledging the prejudice, being cognizant of examples of the prejudice in daily life, experiencing the prejudice directed at oneself, coping with the prejudice, and properly resolving the issue internally. If I reacted as knee jerk about being gay as some ladies in this thread have about being black, I would feel I am constantly justifying my existence.

The mentions of things like beards and job interviews speaks to me that the author of those posts has a long road ahead of them. Prejudice comes from every side, every angle, and wearing every type of sheep's clothing. However, it is the mark of a rational human being with critical thinking to be able to discern context - especially over the internet.

On Prince.org, there is a rather noticeable amount of African American posters who are very, very sensitive to racial issues. Very, very sensitive. This could be entirely justified due to personal experience or even "sympathy pains" for other members of their minority class. Mixed among them are people who will attempt to bait, twist, manipulate, and goad people into saying "the wrong thing" in order to pounce on them. I've seen countless posts that contain such language. The race bait threads/posts typically come from the same people time and time again and it makes you wonder if they are simply trolls stirring the pot to rouse up the oversensitive or they are legitimately that hung up about racial issues. I am positive that at least one of the famous race baiters could underscore part(s) of this post and reply with, "What are you insinuating??" or something of the sort. Spoiler alert: I couldn't BE less prejudiced - I can, in part, thank Prince for that as once in a great while ago he said the words, "White, black, puerto rican, everybody just a-freakin'!" and I take that concept seriously.

You can't always put your finger on the enemy. While one might be able to gather that they are being oppressed or treated unfairly, it's pretty difficult to prove that sort of thing without explicitly stating it. How do you prove someone fired you from your job because you are gay/black/hispanic/whatever without some sort of absolute evidence? This puts people on high alert, frequently, as a means for self preservation. If I can sniff out the prejudice, I can protect myself from being abused. Unfortunately, that kind of behavior misfires more often than not.

Again, because instances of this prejudice do occur, the high sensitivity of some people will latch onto threads like these and dump out all of their personal baggage. Primarily, I think this thread should be locked sheerly because one person has barfed up so much of her dysfunction that it really should be embarrassing akin to waking up after drunk texting. After such a grand display of seriously wounded pride, it would be far too symbolic to admit her wrongdoing. With such close ties to the tribulations of the black community (in spirit if not participation/experience), apologizing for going buckwild on a white boy is out of the question because they, in part, were born deserving it. This is explained quite succinctly in a post above. And I quote:

This concept is a bit of a nonstarter because it implies every person of a certain race is doomed to wear the shame of their forefathers forever - even if they have absolutely no ties to those forefathers beyond similar skin tones. However, it IS used as a weapon and I presume the intent is to twist the person into a moral knot so they can't reply back. It's also patently obvious that damn near everyone alive in the United States right now reaps the benefit of those who came before them at the expense of those who don't resemble them. What came first: The chicken, the egg, colonialism, or African slave trading?

Surely any rational person does not blame all of the US' slavery history on the entirety of the white race. Slavery isn't a "white" concept and, at the risk of sounding like I am defending slavers, it's also not something that any race has NOT done to its OWN people. Cognitive dissonance will prevent people from acknowledging that slavery is a human problem altogether and that what separates us all is not race, but common sense. You either have it or you don't.

^^^

co-sign

I think you made a whole heap of good points there. You said a few things I'd wanted to say but hadn't, mainly due to not being able to say it as well as I'd wanted to, in a way you did manage to do.

I think Ace was fine to ask the question he did, and I don't for a second think this is a bait thread on his part. Spinlight has said exactly what was on my mind better than I could myself. I think it's a shame for Ace it went the way it did.

.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:47am]

Spinlight/Fauxie

Thanks for reading my "War and Peace" post and sharing your opinions on it.

Spinlight,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your response and share a strong connection to many things you said. I would disagree with one thing though. I would hope this thread doesn't get locked. I would hope those who have gotten emotional about parts of the back and forth could come back and have/share some "post mortem" thoughts. (And to be clear, that's on both sides).

Sorry for the kumbaya moment everyone, (all six people that are reading this) but like it not, we're all in this together. This is why I was trying to bring up other creeds/demoninations/stripes/colors/party affilitiations etc... It's not to trivialize or put one over the other. It's to say, if I adopt a mindset of "keeping to myself", how am I ever going to learn about everyone else?

Issues regarding sexual preferences/religious freedoms/racial equality etc are all of equal importance. I would think most people know this. Any way, I already made a post of tragically epic length and this one is starting to grow as well. Just wanted to reiterate my appreciation for both your replies and hope that others will find some merit to it as well.

Have a happy Sunday all. (Except the Irish. I can't stand them)......

Fenwick said:

I'm sure, like me, there are many ghost readers of this thread that would love to engage in this discussion further but just feel like it's going to go in circles. There's an inherent deep seated emotional connection to certain "issues" that just inevitably seem to push some people, (of any race/creed) over the edge.

I have a very good amount of respect for some of the people who have posted on both sides of this debate/discussion/argument. While I do think some of the venom has been misplaced, at risk of sounding like a Dr. Phil wannabe, I'd like to try to stir the boat in a different direction by putting somethng else out there.

If I'm being honest, after reading everything in here, I'm not so sure the hair component of the question is what has got certain people upset. It seems to be more a question of the propriety of a white person asking something about certain customs/characterisitics of black people. I very rarely enter these discussion here. Mostly because this is Prince.org and it's not what I look to talk about when I come to this site. I tried this once before and my simple questions/comparisons to the plight of others went over like a lead balloon.

I've said before my ex-wife happened to be black. That's nothing to be proud or ashamed of. We were two people who fell in love that just happened to be of different colors. I learned a lot about the black community from her, (including the "culture" of hair). There were many others aspects, far more important than hair I learned from her, but that's a story for another day. The one thing I will say is that no matter how educated/enlightened you think you are on a subject, your eyes do open up a great deal when you go to a community and still see evidence of the racial divisions from the past. As a white person, you can understand very quickly why some issues are still very sensitive.

Now - why do I say all this? Well, at risk of being ignored or (even worse) having pot shots taken at me for daring to trivialize the plight of one by comparing it to another, I'll have a go at where my head/heart take me on threads of this nature. (Sorry if that sounds cheesy).

My girlfriend now happens to be Jewish. Just like in my previous relationship, I am learning new things about a different group of people that I've never had the experience to know before. One of the customs I have become most intimately familiar with is Shabbat. At the highest level, it's pretty straight forward. Every Friday night, she and her family get together, say prayers and have dinner together. There's far more to it than that, but suffice to say, I attend almost every one and have learned to say some of the prayers. Mind you, I am not remotely interested in converting, I just think she and her family are beautiful people and it's a respectful thing to do.

Over the course of our relationship, I have asked a number of prodding questions. Perhaps the most simple would be something like, "As you've gotten older, do you view Friday's Shabbat as more an obligation or something that continues to bind your family together"?

She never for a second thought my question (or any of my questions) are rooted with any secondary designs. They are just questions aimed at trying to learn something new about someone who has different experiences than your own. Is that not a fair question to ask? Or as some have suggested/insinuated, is this the type of question that is only fair to ask of someone you know?

I guess, in the hopes of reaching anyone who has been frustrated by this thread, I'll ask my question in a more specific way. If I were to create a thread out here asking the following:

People of Jewish faith: As you grow older do you view Shabbat as more of an obligation or something that keeps you connected to your family?

Should people of Jewish heritage take great offense at my posing this question to them? Is this only something I should ask of someone I know? Why does/could/should this question offend? I think most would acknowledge Jewish people have been (and continue to be) persecuted throughout most of history. And just like the black community, there are still very strong signs of how that persecution has impacted them today.

Does the dividng line on where something becomes inappropriate stem from the race of the person asking the question or the proximity to the people they are asking it of/to? I really don't understand.

I imagine not many folks will read this entire post. I am very sorry for its' length. But I do hope it leads to some thought from those who are troubled by those of us that would naturally ask questions of our fellow human beings on this planet who come from different walks of life.

Read your post. You make some good points, but too often threads regarding Black culture/history/current events, don't last without some form of disrespect, mockery, questionable racist comments/graphics, etc., stereotypical comments, insults, etc., which is not surprising on this site. Yet when that is recognized or called out, by someone who happens to be Black on this site, they get accused of "being angry" or "hostile".

Check this, has it ever occurred to some non-blacks that this is 2011, and many White Americans, especially should be more educated about Black culture more than any other group? Why do I say this? Well, let’s go back to history. Now many know about the history of the enslavement of Africans, many who were ancestors of today’s Blacks. Many know how those slaves were the backbone in building this country with no compensation. Many know that those Blacks planted the seeds and plowed the soil, to grow the fruits/vegetables, grains, that turned into food on their “owners’ tables. Many Americans know that post-slavery segregated laws were created/passed by Whites, limiting the “freedom” of Blacks, yet still having some form of “control” over the lives of Blacks. Despite that, both groups were still living in the same country no matter the segregated communities they lived in. Now let’s fast forward to the civil rights laws of 1964, when segregated laws were forced out of power.

Now let’s jump into the present. Now with all that being known, how is it that in 2011, many Whites still have no clue or are still uneducated about the various cultures/customs of Black ethnic groups in this country, and after decades of many of their White ancestors living in the same country with them, how is it that culturally-related questions are still being asked about African-American culture by many of them, even something as simple as the various hair textures of women of African descent and how they take care of their hair? Yet….how is it that I could walk into quite a few Asian, beauty supply houses or fruit/vegetable markets and find just about every kind of product used among various groups of Black ethnic groups in America, but walk into a motherf*cking Duane Reade, Walgreen’s or Rite-Aid, which most of these stores are white-owned, but still in present day, can’t find a shade of hosiery to match my skin tone in those type stores?

You see where I’m going with this last example? Here are some people from a particular group, who do not have a long history with Blacks, as long as Whites have had in this country, yet many of them are more knowledgeable about specific parts of African/African-American culture, i.e., food products, hair products used, customs, etc., moreso than many White people. I find that interesting, that in 2011, many Whites are very “clueless” about Black culture. And often times when questioning Black culture, do it in a way where they project it as though Blacks are a some sort of science project separate from the human species, and people wonder why some of them get “frustrated” at some of the questioning. Now even with that explanation, some will still not "get it" because their egos will get in the way.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:14am]

Gee...I wonder who all the psychobabble is directed at? Oh wait...is that me? I haven't been "outed"....I've been extremely clear where I stand on some issues since coming onto the org. Folks like to call it hypersensitivity or whatever if one is a person of color. My colleagues who are white say the same shit about how clueless many white people are, and how they have been handed some shit, and how they are born with benefits, yet I wonder if the same rhetoric would be spewed at them if they were on this thread using the same words I am using. Perhaps it would be said that they have self hatred? I guess anybody who will "go there" and say what nobody wants to say are sensitive african americans.

My professional commitment to civil rights (all civil rights, not just those that affect african americans), its continued evolvement and development and keeping shit from being repealed is not personal misdirected anger based on experiences. You my friend are just blowing toxic smoke out of your ass, and I'm sure there are some orgers standing nearby just inhaling away.

Next somebody will jump on this thread and say there is no current ongoing discrimination based on hair...black people are hyper sensitive and misdirected.....and I guess in the microclimate of your world, it could possibly be true...but that is not what goes on broadly.

Some stuff exists and ignoring it and downplaying it will not make everyone hold hands and sit around the fire together. Unlike many, I do not participate in the popularity contest here on the org. I just post, and if you agree on that topic...great, if you do not, your welcome to discuss it. I have no need to dissect your upbringing or lack of education on a topic to prove my own point.

Fenwick...thank you for your post. I appreciate it. To answer the question

"Does the dividng line on where something becomes inappropriate stem from the race of the person asking the question or the proximity to the people they are asking it of/to?"

it depends. When people who have previously said lots of dumb shit and made shady comments ask the questions, walls go up and the side eye comes into play. I've been asked a lot of questions by close friends that they wouldn't dare ask others, and we laugh and discuss things. But if somebody I dont know asks those same questions, intent is often a factor. There are some here on the org who have in the past said some fucked up stuff, and then they have the nerve to turn around and ask questions. I tend to respect people who ask with the intent to understand a culture, and often that i what close associates are seeking. Mere curiosity makes me weary.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:19am]

Fenwick...what do you have against the irish?

2elijah said:

Read your post. You make some good points, but too often threads regarding Black culture/history/current events, don't last without some form of disrespect, mockery, questionable racist comments/graphics, etc., stereotypical comments, insults, etc., which is not surprising on this site. Yet when that is recognized or called out, by someone who happens to be Black on this site, they get accused of "being angry" or "hostile".

Check this, has it ever occurred to some non-blacks that this is 2011, and many White Americans, especially should be more educated about Black culture more than any other group? Why do I say this? Well, let’s go back to history. Now many know about the history of the enslavement of Africans, many who were ancestors of today’s Blacks. Many know how those slaves were the backbone in building this country with no compensation. Many know that those Blacks planted the seeds and plowed the soil, to grow the fruits/vegetables, grains, that turned into food on their “owners’ tables. Many Americans know that post-slavery segregated laws were created/passed by Whites, limiting the “freedom” of Blacks, yet still having some form of “control” over the lives of Blacks. Despite that, both groups were still living in the same country no matter the segregated communities they lived in. Now let’s fast forward to the civil rights laws of 1964, when segregated laws were forced out of power.

Now let’s jump into the present. Now with all that being known, how is it that in 2011, many Whites still have no clue or are still uneducated about the various cultures/customs of Black ethnic groups in this country, and after decades of many of their White ancestors living in the same country with them, how is it that culturally-related questions are still being asked about African-American culture by many of them, even something as simple as the various hair textures of women of African descent and how they take care of their hair? Yet….how is it that I could walk into quite a few Asian, beauty supply houses or fruit/vegetable markets and find just about every kind of product used among various groups of Black ethnic groups in America, but walk into a Duane Reade, Walgreen’s or Rite-Aid, which is more than likely white-owned, but still in present day, can’t find a shade of hosiery to match my skin tone in those type stores?

You see where I’m going with this last example? Here are some people from a particular group, who do not have a long history with Blacks, as long as Whites have had in this country, yet many of them are more knowledgeable about specific parts of African/African-American culture, i.e., food products, hair products used, customs, etc., moreso than many White people. I find that interesting, that in 2011, many Whites are very “clueless” about Black culture. And often times when questioning Black culture, do it in a way where they project it as though Blacks are a some sort of science project separate from the human species, and people wonder why some of them get “frustrated” at some of the questioning. Now even with that explanation, some will still not "get it" because their egos will get in the way.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:10am]

Hi 2Elijah

Thank you for your compliment. I 100% understand why some people have varying degrees of sensitivity to certain issues. You've made many a great point in threads of this nature in the past and it has been my experience that you always manage to do so in the most respectful manner. Not an easy thing to do by a long shot. I always try to be the same way as well and certainly fail on occasion.

I guess the simplest way for me to respond would be two fold.

1 - If I say, "oh that's retarded" to something silly, some folks with a special needs child may take grave offense. Some others with a special needs child would see it as just a word that's used in conjunction with calling something stupid, and having no ill intent. Different folks have different "push buttons" so no matter how cool and calm you and I might be about discussion like these, other folks are going to have different emotional components when trying to address a subject matter like this one.

2 - As you say regarding the hair salons, doesn't that kind of make Ace's post all the more appropriate? He's trying to learn something isn't he? I would admit, before my marriage, I knew NOTHING about this subject. But as a balding, pasty white dude from suburbia, I don't really care about my own hair much less anyone elses.

Any way, I don't think I am saying anything you don't already know. It's just a different approach from a different person. Have a great Sunday!

[Edited 4/10/11 7:25am]

StillGotIt said:

Fenwick...what do you have against the irish?

Hi Still Got it. 100% kidding!!!

After saying everything else I said I thought it would be funny to throw a totally silly jab out there that contradicts everything else I said just to lighten things up!

This thread...wow.

Ace is one of the best guys on the org, and he asked a couple honest and polite questions. The negative reaction seems very unfair.

2elijah said:

StillGotIt said:

You wrote so much that I never said based on your interpretation of my words... I guess you think that you are reading between the lines. I will not address your assumptions, it's useless as you will no doubt continue to twist and turn, and come up with additional assumptions mixed with some truth. Are you suffering from deep seated guilt over past actions or worse---inactions?

I never ran from responding. I often enjoy spirited discussions with the ignorant. I am not seperating anybody from anybody.....people are already seperated, and it was people who oppressed that created the chasm. Your momentary kumbaya idealism will not change that. Your world is simply not the same as the one many others live in. People still worry about their hair being too ethnic when they interview. That is not a stereotype, its a reality.

You say that you are aware of civil rights history? Well then, you must know that what happened in the past is not in the past, it gave light to more issues, and also gave rights to fight about old issues that just wont go away. Hence, the lawsuits about womens hair and black men's beards...oh wait...but that didn't affect you, did it...so its all bullshit and we need to get over it because you didn't personally discriminate. Did you petition others to support the law to allow us to wear our hair and shave our beards the way that we see fit? (rhetorical question)

There is shit still going on to this day, civil rights is not a past thing you learn about, its a life you live, but then again you wouldn't necessarily know that.....learning about the history of the civil rights movement and living it in present day are not the same.

You are right....I dont know you or your people. And based on your rant, I have no desire to change that. For the record, whether you acknowledge it or not, if you are not black, you are reaping the benefit of those who came before you, at the expense of those who do not resemble you. Thats not hatred, thats just the way it is. Does that make you responsible for shit being done today? That's between you and your maker.

There is a saying I've heard: "Do not argue with fools. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Hence, I mentioned the lock because you are simply not worth the power it takes to keep my computer turned on.

You've made very good points StillGotIt, and I have to commend you for not letting the typical org bullies stop you from expressing your views on this. Some are getting angry at what you're saying because you're telling truths they can't seem to handle or are not trying to "understand".

I have to say you're right about it being "others' issue" and not specifically that of Black women. If I stated it was an "issue" in the Black community in my previous thread, then stand corrected. I do remember the cases of Black women getting fired from their jobs or threatened they'll be fired for wearing their hair in "natural" styles. All based on someone else's prejudice or disrepect to their culture.

I remember when women with afros seeking employment were told to "straighten" their hair. Women who wore their hair in braids were told it was "too ethnic" or "militant.". These are many documented cases of this.

Surprising when the movie "10" came out with White actress Bo Derek, wearing an African-braided hairstyle, and suddenly that African hairdo was accepted by many non-blacks. Surprising? Absolutely not. It seems many non-blacks received their education about thatAfrican or Black-American, related natural hairstyles when this movie came out. Pathetic. This type of situation wasn't/isn't isolated to Blacks, the same things happened to Native Americans when they were forced to dress and cut their hair to appear more "European", and were banned from wearing their hair in their traditional, ethnic group's style.

It was a matter of disrespecting another's culture while being forced to embrace that of the "majority". It seems the lack of education, disrespect towards black culture and ignorance, still seems to be a problem in this country, especially judging by some of the responses, and lack of respect, comprehension, some displaying in reaction to your post. If they were really interested in "learning" about it, some would not have reacted this way, but like I said before, some jump on these threads with no real, sincere interest in the topic, other than to bully or bringitheir own undercover prejudices. I applaud you for stance and input on this topic.

I love your approach to stuff 2elijah.

People are just naturally curious about things that are different than they are... Always has been, always will be...

It can be about ANYTHING... How many threads have been started geared towards gay people... I can see one on the front page right now about having a gay lisp... Noone got pissy and offended, or claimed any injustice....

there are tons of threads started about religious beliefs, when one isnt of that religion, people are curious about it and have questions... I used to work with some Jehovah witnesses and they were more than happy to answer questions about their beliefs...Which are way different than mine..

I understand how some people get tired of being scrutinized, i really do! But it really isnt fair to bring the past of which none of us had anything to do with into this discussion...

Black girls DO spend tons of time and money on their hair, thats just the fact... and as white girl, that really is different from something we do... a boss of mine at work came in one day saying how he spent the WHOLE day getting his little girls hair braided... The whole day! I couldnt even imagine spending that much time in a beauty shop so I naturally had a few questions like, Did she mind sitting there? (cuz shes like 7) his answer, no, shes used to it... I wanted to know cost, how long it lasts, do you have to wash it and if so how often... He even went into explanation about how after the braids are removed the process of combing out the hair and the pain the poor girl goes thru trying to get a comb thru it ... He was freely communicating this with us because he could see we were innocently interested because this is something we as white girls have never experienced...

It was interesting to me, not because i wanna study black people like they are zoo animals, I cant believe that was even said btw... but because this is a differnet way of living than I have and I thought it was pretty neat.. I love learning about new cultures, ways of living, etc... Ima people watcher, I find it cool to see how others live thats different from my own... The foods people cook, the things they do for enjoyment etc... I find how people live in different parts of the world cool... Its different from me!

I love everyone, well exceptt for the bitches in my office, But seriously, I as a person, am just like every white, black, asian, hispanic, who find the differences in how we were raised and how we live our lives to be interesting and am truley sorry if curiousity comes off as anything other than it is intended..

Fenwick said:

2elijah said:

Read your post. You make some good points, but too often threads regarding Black culture/history/current events, don't last without some form of disrespect, mockery, questionable racist comments/graphics, etc., stereotypical comments, insults, etc., which is not surprising on this site. Yet when that is recognized or called out, by someone who happens to be Black on this site, they get accused of "being angry" or "hostile".

Check this, has it ever occurred to some non-blacks that this is 2011, and many White Americans, especially should be more educated about Black culture more than any other group? Why do I say this? Well, let’s go back to history. Now many know about the history of the enslavement of Africans, many who were ancestors of today’s Blacks. Many know how those slaves were the backbone in building this country with no compensation. Many know that those Blacks planted the seeds and plowed the soil, to grow the fruits/vegetables, grains, that turned into food on their “owners’ tables. Many Americans know that post-slavery segregated laws were created/passed by Whites, limiting the “freedom” of Blacks, yet still having some form of “control” over the lives of Blacks. Despite that, both groups were still living in the same country no matter the segregated communities they lived in. Now let’s fast forward to the civil rights laws of 1964, when segregated laws were forced out of power.

Now let’s jump into the present. Now with all that being known, how is it that in 2011, many Whites still have no clue or are still uneducated about the various cultures/customs of Black ethnic groups in this country, and after decades of many of their White ancestors living in the same country with them, how is it that culturally-related questions are still being asked about African-American culture by many of them, even something as simple as the various hair textures of women of African descent and how they take care of their hair? Yet….how is it that I could walk into quite a few Asian, beauty supply houses or fruit/vegetable markets and find just about every kind of product used among various groups of Black ethnic groups in America, but walk into a Duane Reade, Walgreen’s or Rite-Aid, which is more than likely white-owned, but still in present day, can’t find a shade of hosiery to match my skin tone in those type stores?

You see where I’m going with this last example? Here are some people from a particular group, who do not have a long history with Blacks, as long as Whites have had in this country, yet many of them are more knowledgeable about specific parts of African/African-American culture, i.e., food products, hair products used, customs, etc., moreso than many White people. I find that interesting, that in 2011, many Whites are very “clueless” about Black culture. And often times when questioning Black culture, do it in a way where they project it as though Blacks are a some sort of science project separate from the human species, and people wonder why some of them get “frustrated” at some of the questioning. Now even with that explanation, some will still not "get it" because their egos will get in the way.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:10am]

Hi 2Elijah

Thank you for your compliment. I 100% understand why some people have varying degrees of sensitivity to certain issues. You've made many a great point in threads of this nature in the past and it has been my experience that you always manage to do so in the most respectful manner. Not an easy thing to do by a long shot. I always try to be the same way as well and certainly fail on occasion.

I guess the simplest way for me to respond would be two fold.

1 - If I say, "oh that's retarded" to something silly, some folks with a special needs child may take grave offense. Some others with a special needs child would see it as just a word that's used in conjunction with calling something stupid, and having no ill intent. Different folks have different "push buttons" so no matter how cool and calm you and I might be about discussion like these, other folks are going to have different emotional components when trying to address a subject matter like this one.

2 - As you say regarding the hair salons, doesn't that kind of make Ace's post all the more appropriate? He's trying to learn something isn't he? I would admit, before my marriage, I knew NOTHING about this subject. But as a balding, pasty white dude from suburbia, I don't really care about my own hair much less anyone elses.

Any way, I don't think I am saying anything you don't already know. It's just a different approach from a different person. Have a great Sunday!

[Edited 4/10/11 7:25am]

Thanks, To answer #2 of your comment. The thing is, I don't know Ace's reputation around here. Has he made other statements that are racially questionable or of mockery status? Maybe that is why he received a certain type of response from some, because of other questionable comments/threads that were not of a sincere nature? There are some here that do that for the sake of baiting. The thing is, why would what the hair techniques of women of African-descent make his thinking process hurt moreso than any other woman from another ethnic group doing the same thing to her hair? It makes no sense.

Any woman wearing her hair in a natural state, will not deal with her the same way when a chemical is applied, and that can be from coloring the hair, perming it, etc. Even when braiding the entire hair, whether natural or permed could be a headache for any woman, because it is time consuming. Doesn't matter which race/ethnic group she is from. I find that there are men that apply chemicals to their hair as well, and regardless of which race/ethnic group they are from, chemically-treated hair will always need more intensive care, probably moreso than one who wears their hair natural, because wearing the hair in its natural state, can be a pain in the ass for many as well, depending the texture and how comfortable the person feels wearing it that way.

2elijah said:

Fenwick said:

I'm sure, like me, there are many ghost readers of this thread that would love to engage in this discussion further but just feel like it's going to go in circles. There's an inherent deep seated emotional connection to certain "issues" that just inevitably seem to push some people, (of any race/creed) over the edge.

I have a very good amount of respect for some of the people who have posted on both sides of this debate/discussion/argument. While I do think some of the venom has been misplaced, at risk of sounding like a Dr. Phil wannabe, I'd like to try to stir the boat in a different direction by putting somethng else out there.

If I'm being honest, after reading everything in here, I'm not so sure the hair component of the question is what has got certain people upset. It seems to be more a question of the propriety of a white person asking something about certain customs/characterisitics of black people. I very rarely enter these discussion here. Mostly because this is Prince.org and it's not what I look to talk about when I come to this site. I tried this once before and my simple questions/comparisons to the plight of others went over like a lead balloon.

I've said before my ex-wife happened to be black. That's nothing to be proud or ashamed of. We were two people who fell in love that just happened to be of different colors. I learned a lot about the black community from her, (including the "culture" of hair). There were many others aspects, far more important than hair I learned from her, but that's a story for another day. The one thing I will say is that no matter how educated/enlightened you think you are on a subject, your eyes do open up a great deal when you go to a community and still see evidence of the racial divisions from the past. As a white person, you can understand very quickly why some issues are still very sensitive.

Now - why do I say all this? Well, at risk of being ignored or (even worse) having pot shots taken at me for daring to trivialize the plight of one by comparing it to another, I'll have a go at where my head/heart take me on threads of this nature. (Sorry if that sounds cheesy).

My girlfriend now happens to be Jewish. Just like in my previous relationship, I am learning new things about a different group of people that I've never had the experience to know before. One of the customs I have become most intimately familiar with is Shabbat. At the highest level, it's pretty straight forward. Every Friday night, she and her family get together, say prayers and have dinner together. There's far more to it than that, but suffice to say, I attend almost every one and have learned to say some of the prayers. Mind you, I am not remotely interested in converting, I just think she and her family are beautiful people and it's a respectful thing to do.

Over the course of our relationship, I have asked a number of prodding questions. Perhaps the most simple would be something like, "As you've gotten older, do you view Friday's Shabbat as more an obligation or something that continues to bind your family together"?

She never for a second thought my question (or any of my questions) are rooted with any secondary designs. They are just questions aimed at trying to learn something new about someone who has different experiences than your own. Is that not a fair question to ask? Or as some have suggested/insinuated, is this the type of question that is only fair to ask of someone you know?

I guess, in the hopes of reaching anyone who has been frustrated by this thread, I'll ask my question in a more specific way. If I were to create a thread out here asking the following:

People of Jewish faith: As you grow older do you view Shabbat as more of an obligation or something that keeps you connected to your family?

Should people of Jewish heritage take great offense at my posing this question to them? Is this only something I should ask of someone I know? Why does/could/should this question offend? I think most would acknowledge Jewish people have been (and continue to be) persecuted throughout most of history. And just like the black community, there are still very strong signs of how that persecution has impacted them today.

Does the dividng line on where something becomes inappropriate stem from the race of the person asking the question or the proximity to the people they are asking it of/to? I really don't understand.

I imagine not many folks will read this entire post. I am very sorry for its' length. But I do hope it leads to some thought from those who are troubled by those of us that would naturally ask questions of our fellow human beings on this planet who come from different walks of life.

Read your post. You make some good points, but too often threads regarding Black culture/history/current events, don't last without some form of disrespect, mockery, questionable racist comments/graphics, etc., stereotypical comments, insults, etc., which is not surprising on this site. Yet when that is recognized or called out, by someone who happens to be Black on this site, they get accused of "being angry" or "hostile".

Check this, has it ever occurred to some non-blacks that this is 2011, and many White Americans, especially should be more educated about Black culture more than any other group? Why do I say this? Well, let’s go back to history. Now many know about the history of the enslavement of Africans, many who were ancestors of today’s Blacks. Many know how those slaves were the backbone in building this country with no compensation. Many know that those Blacks planted the seeds and plowed the soil, to grow the fruits/vegetables, grains, that turned into food on their “owners’ tables. Many Americans know that post-slavery segregated laws were created/passed by Whites, limiting the “freedom” of Blacks, yet still having some form of “control” over the lives of Blacks. Despite that, both groups were still living in the same country no matter the segregated communities they lived in. Now let’s fast forward to the civil rights laws of 1964, when segregated laws were forced out of power.

Now let’s jump into the present. Now with all that being known, how is it that in 2011, many Whites still have no clue or are still uneducated about the various cultures/customs of Black ethnic groups in this country, and after decades of many of their White ancestors living in the same country with them, how is it that culturally-related questions are still being asked about African-American culture by many of them, even something as simple as the various hair textures of women of African descent and how they take care of their hair? Yet….how is it that I could walk into quite a few Asian, beauty supply houses or fruit/vegetable markets and find just about every kind of product used among various groups of Black ethnic groups in America, but walk into a motherf*cking Duane Reade, Walgreen’s or Rite-Aid, which most of these stores are white-owned, but still in present day, can’t find a shade of hosiery to match my skin tone in those type stores?

You see where I’m going with this last example? Here are some people from a particular group, who do not have a long history with Blacks, as long as Whites have had in this country, yet many of them are more knowledgeable about specific parts of African/African-American culture, i.e., food products, hair products used, customs, etc., moreso than many White people. I find that interesting, that in 2011, many Whites are very “clueless” about Black culture. And often times when questioning Black culture, do it in a way where they project it as though Blacks are a some sort of science project separate from the human species, and people wonder why some of them get “frustrated” at some of the questioning. Now even with that explanation, some will still not "get it" because their egos will get in the way.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:14am]

[img:$uid]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Javanut61/blogger%20template/Smilies/preach.gif[/img:$uid]

StillGotIt said:

2elijah said:

Read your post. You make some good points, but too often threads regarding Black culture/history/current events, don't last without some form of disrespect, mockery, questionable racist comments/graphics, etc., stereotypical comments, insults, etc., which is not surprising on this site. Yet when that is recognized or called out, by someone who happens to be Black on this site, they get accused of "being angry" or "hostile".

Check this, has it ever occurred to some non-blacks that this is 2011, and many White Americans, especially should be more educated about Black culture more than any other group? Why do I say this? Well, let’s go back to history. Now many know about the history of the enslavement of Africans, many who were ancestors of today’s Blacks. Many know how those slaves were the backbone in building this country with no compensation. Many know that those Blacks planted the seeds and plowed the soil, to grow the fruits/vegetables, grains, that turned into food on their “owners’ tables. Many Americans know that post-slavery segregated laws were created/passed by Whites, limiting the “freedom” of Blacks, yet still having some form of “control” over the lives of Blacks. Despite that, both groups were still living in the same country no matter the segregated communities they lived in. Now let’s fast forward to the civil rights laws of 1964, when segregated laws were forced out of power.

Now let’s jump into the present. Now with all that being known, how is it that in 2011, many Whites still have no clue or are still uneducated about the various cultures/customs of Black ethnic groups in this country, and after decades of many of their White ancestors living in the same country with them, how is it that culturally-related questions are still being asked about African-American culture by many of them, even something as simple as the various hair textures of women of African descent and how they take care of their hair? Yet….how is it that I could walk into quite a few Asian, beauty supply houses or fruit/vegetable markets and find just about every kind of product used among various groups of Black ethnic groups in America, but walk into a motherf*cking Duane Reade, Walgreen’s or Rite-Aid, which most of these stores are white-owned, but still in present day, can’t find a shade of hosiery to match my skin tone in those type stores?

You see where I’m going with this last example? Here are some people from a particular group, who do not have a long history with Blacks, as long as Whites have had in this country, yet many of them are more knowledgeable about specific parts of African/African-American culture, i.e., food products, hair products used, customs, etc., moreso than many White people. I find that interesting, that in 2011, many Whites are very “clueless” about Black culture. And often times when questioning Black culture, do it in a way where they project it as though Blacks are a some sort of science project separate from the human species, and people wonder why some of them get “frustrated” at some of the questioning. Now even with that explanation, some will still not "get it" because their egos will get in the way.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:14am]

[img:$uid]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Javanut61/blogger%20template/Smilies/preach.gif[/img:$uid]

It was very good post, but I honestly don't understand how white people are supposed to be more educated about black culture without asking any questions.

Fenwick said:

StillGotIt said:

Fenwick...what do you have against the irish?

Hi Still Got it. 100% kidding!!!

After saying everything else I said I thought it would be funny to throw a totally silly jab out there that contradicts everything else I said just to lighten things up!

i actually laughed when I read that...and then said...oh wait...I'd better ask....

StillGotIt said:

Gee...I wonder who all the psychobabble is directed at? Oh wait...is that me? I haven't been "outed"....I've been extremely clear where I stand on some issues since coming onto the org. Folks like to call it hypersensitivity or whatever if one is a person of color. My colleagues who are white say the same shit about how clueless many white people are, and how they have been handed some shit, and how they are born with benefits, yet I wonder if the same rhetoric would be spewed at them if they were on this thread using the same words I am using. Perhaps it would be said that they have self hatred? I guess anybody who will "go there" and say what nobody wants to say are sensitive african americans.

My professional commitment to civil rights (all civil rights, not just those that affect african americans), its continued evolvement and development and keeping shit from being repealed is not personal misdirected anger based on experiences. You my friend are just blowing toxic smoke out of your ass, and I'm sure there are some orgers standing nearby just inhaling away.

Next somebody will jump on this thread and say there is no current ongoing discrimination based on hair...black people are hyper sensitive and misdirected.....and I guess in the microclimate of your world, it could possibly be true...but that is not what goes on broadly.

Some stuff exists and ignoring it and downplaying it will not make everyone hold hands and sit around the fire together. Unlike many, I do not participate in the popularity contest here on the org. I just post, and if you agree on that topic...great, if you do not, your welcome to discuss it. I have no need to dissect your upbringing or lack of education on a topic to prove my own point.

Fenwick...thank you for your post. I appreciate it. To answer the question

"Does the dividng line on where something becomes inappropriate stem from the race of the person asking the question or the proximity to the people they are asking it of/to?"

it depends. When people who have previously said lots of dumb shit and made shady comments ask the questions, walls go up and the side eye comes into play. I've been asked a lot of questions by close friends that they wouldn't dare ask others, and we laugh and discuss things. But if somebody I dont know asks those same questions, intent is often a factor. There are some here on the org who have in the past said some fucked up stuff, and then they have the nerve to turn around and ask questions. I tend to respect people who ask with the intent to understand a culture, and often that i what close associates are seeking. Mere curiosity makes me weary.

[Edited 4/10/11 7:19am]

Not Ace though, I assume, since as it's been pointed out he clearly isn't one for race baiting. But it's his thread, his questions, so if not him, then who? It's not that your points aren't valid, as of course they are, but that's why it reads as unfocused and a bit of rant that has very little to do with this specific thread. It's like you're bringing stuff in here from the past from other threads just assuming it's the same thing going on here, when that's not the case. I don't think it is, at least, but it would appear you disagree. I think it's not a bait thread and I think you've done a disservice to the OP. I think his intentions were very much genuine and didn't deserve this response.

tinaz said:

People are just naturally curious about things that are different than they are... Always has been, always will be...

It can be about ANYTHING... How many threads have been started geared towards gay people... I can see one on the front page right now about having a gay lisp... Noone got pissy and offended, or claimed any injustice....

there are tons of threads started about religious beliefs, when one isnt of that religion, people are curious about it and have questions... I used to work with some Jehovah witnesses and they were more than happy to answer questions about their beliefs...Which are way different than mine..

I understand how some people get tired of being scrutinized, i really do! But it really isnt fair to bring the past of which none of us had anything to do with into this discussion...

Black girls DO spend tons of time and money on their hair, thats just the fact... and as white girl, that really is different from something we do... a boss of mine at work came in one day saying how he spent the WHOLE day getting his little girls hair braided... The whole day! I couldnt even imagine spending that much time in a beauty shop so I naturally had a few questions like, Did she mind sitting there? (cuz shes like 7) his answer, no, shes used to it... I wanted to know cost, how long it lasts, do you have to wash it and if so how often... He even went into explanation about how after the braids are removed the process of combing out the hair and the pain the poor girl goes thru trying to get a comb thru it ... He was freely communicating this with us because he could see we were innocently interested because this is something we as white girls have never experienced...

It was interesting to me, not because i wanna study black people like they are zoo animals, I cant believe that was even said btw... but because this is a differnet way of living than I have and I thought it was pretty neat.. I love learning about new cultures, ways of living, etc... Ima people watcher, I find it cool to see how others live thats different from my own... The foods people cook, the things they do for enjoyment etc... I find how people live in different parts of the world cool... Its different from me!

I love everyone, well exceptt for the bitches in my office, But seriously, I as a person, am just like every white, black, asian, hispanic, who find the differences in how we were raised and how we live our lives to be interesting and am truley sorry if curiousity comes off as anything other than it is intended..

Sorry Tina, I have to disagree on the "braiding" technique. Any little girl or grown woman getting their full head of hair braided is time consuming. So the amount of time and money spent on anyone's hair, is really what the individual wants done with it, and that really can't be "measured" based on race/ethnicity. It's the process and styles one chooses to have done to their hair. Also depends on the textures. You have some white women withe a fine texture of hair to thick and full. I've seen many Egyptian women with very, thick-textured, wavy/curly hair, that looks very, time-consuming to take care of. So in my opinion, I don't see how long a person spends on their hair or how much money they spend on it, based on their race/ethnic background, it all depends on how each one chooses to take care of it. The braiding hairdos are just more common among Black females, moreso little girls, because most parents do not want to put chemicals in their kids hair. Often times many Black women result to perms to manage the thickness of their hair textures, not so much to "look European" as some often think.

2elijah said:

Fenwick said:

Hi 2Elijah

Thank you for your compliment. I 100% understand why some people have varying degrees of sensitivity to certain issues. You've made many a great point in threads of this nature in the past and it has been my experience that you always manage to do so in the most respectful manner. Not an easy thing to do by a long shot. I always try to be the same way as well and certainly fail on occasion.

I guess the simplest way for me to respond would be two fold.

1 - If I say, "oh that's retarded" to something silly, some folks with a special needs child may take grave offense. Some others with a special needs child would see it as just a word that's used in conjunction with calling something stupid, and having no ill intent. Different folks have different "push buttons" so no matter how cool and calm you and I might be about discussion like these, other folks are going to have different emotional components when trying to address a subject matter like this one.

2 - As you say regarding the hair salons, doesn't that kind of make Ace's post all the more appropriate? He's trying to learn something isn't he? I would admit, before my marriage, I knew NOTHING about this subject. But as a balding, pasty white dude from suburbia, I don't really care about my own hair much less anyone elses.

Any way, I don't think I am saying anything you don't already know. It's just a different approach from a different person. Have a great Sunday!

[Edited 4/10/11 7:25am]

Thanks, To answer #2 of your comment. The thing is, I don't know Ace's reputation around here. Has he made other statements that are racially questionable or of mockery status? Maybe that is why he received a certain type of response from some, because of other questionable comments/threads that were not of a sincere nature? There are some here that do that for the sake of baiting.

That's exactly the point, he has no reputation for that whatsoever, which puts the responses in a very different light unfortunately. Being more familiar with the OP might have allowed for a lot of this to be avoided, I think, before incorrect conclusions were jumped to, but I know it's the nature of the net, and of course we don't know as much about some folks as we do about others (there are a LOT of ppl on this site, after all). It's all too easy to jump in though and make assumptions.

Efan said:

StillGotIt said:

[img:$uid]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Javanut61/blogger%20template/Smilies/preach.gif[/img:$uid]

It was very good post, but I honestly don't understand how white people are supposed to be more educated about black culture without asking any questions.

Absolutely nothing wrong with asking, but like I stated on another post, I think because of posts of the past where threads of this nature have surfaced, you unfortunately get those who take advantage of the opportunity to bait/troll, throw in racist mockery, and what happens? The entire thread goes in another direction. Ace may have been innocent in his questioning, but I think if he actually frequented any hair salon where women are getting their hair done, he will see what he asked about women of African descent, and the hair techniques they use to manage their hair, is not isolated to many other women from various race groups, who go through various techniques in managing their hair, and how they choose to wear it. It's just that all women have different hair textures, and they take care of their hair in many different ways.

StillGotIt said:

Fenwick said:

Hi Still Got it. 100% kidding!!!

After saying everything else I said I thought it would be funny to throw a totally silly jab out there that contradicts everything else I said just to lighten things up!

i actually laughed when I read that...and then said...oh wait...I'd better ask....

Me too. When I was double checking for edits I thought about taking it out but I figured if I got a laugh out of it it was worth taking a shot!!!

2elijah said:

tinaz said:

People are just naturally curious about things that are different than they are... Always has been, always will be...

It can be about ANYTHING... How many threads have been started geared towards gay people... I can see one on the front page right now about having a gay lisp... Noone got pissy and offended, or claimed any injustice....

there are tons of threads started about religious beliefs, when one isnt of that religion, people are curious about it and have questions... I used to work with some Jehovah witnesses and they were more than happy to answer questions about their beliefs...Which are way different than mine..

I understand how some people get tired of being scrutinized, i really do! But it really isnt fair to bring the past of which none of us had anything to do with into this discussion...

Black girls DO spend tons of time and money on their hair, thats just the fact... and as white girl, that really is different from something we do... a boss of mine at work came in one day saying how he spent the WHOLE day getting his little girls hair braided... The whole day! I couldnt even imagine spending that much time in a beauty shop so I naturally had a few questions like, Did she mind sitting there? (cuz shes like 7) his answer, no, shes used to it... I wanted to know cost, how long it lasts, do you have to wash it and if so how often... He even went into explanation about how after the braids are removed the process of combing out the hair and the pain the poor girl goes thru trying to get a comb thru it ... He was freely communicating this with us because he could see we were innocently interested because this is something we as white girls have never experienced...

It was interesting to me, not because i wanna study black people like they are zoo animals, I cant believe that was even said btw... but because this is a differnet way of living than I have and I thought it was pretty neat.. I love learning about new cultures, ways of living, etc... Ima people watcher, I find it cool to see how others live thats different from my own... The foods people cook, the things they do for enjoyment etc... I find how people live in different parts of the world cool... Its different from me!

I love everyone, well exceptt for the bitches in my office, But seriously, I as a person, am just like every white, black, asian, hispanic, who find the differences in how we were raised and how we live our lives to be interesting and am truley sorry if curiousity comes off as anything other than it is intended..

Sorry Tina, I have to disagree on the "braiding" technique. Any little girl or grown woman getting their full head of hair braided is time consuming. So the amount of time and money spent on anyone's hair, is really what the individual wants done with it, and that really can't be "measured" based on race/ethnicity. It's the process and styles one chooses to have done to their hair. Also depends on the textures. You have some white women withe a fine texture of hair to thick and full. I've seen many Egyptian women with very, thick-textured, wavy/curly hair, that looks very, time-consuming to take care of. So in my opinion, I don't see how long a person spends on their hair or how much money they spend on it, based on their race/ethnic background, it all depends on how each one chooses to take care of it. The braiding hairdos are just more common among Black females, moreso little girls, because most parents do not want to put chemicals in their kids hair. Often times many Black women result to perms to manage the thickness of their hair textures, not so much to "look European" as some often think.

This is true, but I dont know anyone other than african american girls who do their whole head in braids...

I knew about perms, which I had a time wrapping my brain around because to me a perm is when I get my hair curly

Efan said:

StillGotIt said:

[img:$uid]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh236/Javanut61/blogger%20template/Smilies/preach.gif[/img:$uid]

It was very good post, but I honestly don't understand how white people are supposed to be more educated about black culture without asking any questions.

I guess that's just it...thats what 2elijah is pointing out. If the cultures have lived side by side for long, why are there still questions and so little acknowledgement by the majority? If I walk into the asian owned stores, they will talk to me about the latest black hair care product. If I walk into most white owned store, they will tell me I dont know about the productgs your hair needs, we dont sell that stuff. Go to the asian store down the street....

tinaz said:

2elijah said:

Sorry Tina, I have to disagree on the "braiding" technique. Any little girl or grown woman getting their full head of hair braided is time consuming. So the amount of time and money spent on anyone's hair, is really what the individual wants done with it, and that really can't be "measured" based on race/ethnicity. It's the process and styles one chooses to have done to their hair. Also depends on the textures. You have some white women withe a fine texture of hair to thick and full. I've seen many Egyptian women with very, thick-textured, wavy/curly hair, that looks very, time-consuming to take care of. So in my opinion, I don't see how long a person spends on their hair or how much money they spend on it, based on their race/ethnic background, it all depends on how each one chooses to take care of it. The braiding hairdos are just more common among Black females, moreso little girls, because most parents do not want to put chemicals in their kids hair. Often times many Black women result to perms to manage the thickness of their hair textures, not so much to "look European" as some often think.

This is true, but I dont know anyone other than african american girls who do their whole head in braids...

I knew about perms, which I had a time wrapping my brain around because to me a perm is when I get my hair curly

I hear you, because "braids" are a common hairdo among many in the black community. Often times, many White women when visiting the Caribbean, will get their hair braided, maybe not so much their entire head, but many will have it done, just for fashion, and wear it like that for a little while, until they return home.

StillGotIt said:

Efan said:

It was very good post, but I honestly don't understand how white people are supposed to be more educated about black culture without asking any questions.

I guess that's just it...thats what 2elijah is pointing out. If the cultures have lived side by side for long, why are there still questions and so little acknowledgement by the majority? If I walk into the asian owned stores, they will talk to me about the latest black hair care product. If I walk into most white owned store, they will tell me I dont know about the productgs your hair needs, we dont sell that stuff. Go to the asian store down the street....

Yes, that's what I always found amazing. I remember my Dad, when he was alive would send me to get some type of cough medicine or tonic at an Asian-owned fruit/vegetable market, called "Ferrol", used in the Caribbean. They also sold "Bay Rum" which is a mentholated alchohol rub used by Caribbeans to rub on your muscles for arthritis, etc., My mother used to rub that on me and my siblings, whenever we came in from being soaked in the rain, as she felt it prevented us from catching colds, but I think the latter was just one of my mother's old Caribbean ways taught to her by her mother, but then again, she could have been right about its use.

But yes, I've always been amazed of many Asian beauty supply stores/fruit & vegetable markets, that carried many products used within the Black community, and that is why they make a big profit off of us, as a whole.

[Edited 4/10/11 8:20am]

Ace said:

How many of you wear your hair "au naturel" (i.e. no weaving, lace-fronts-or-other wigs or straightening)?

I ask because, from what I read, it seems like black women who don't do any of these things are in the vast minority. Is this accurate?

It seems like so much work! I get tired just thinking about it!

Wow. Wish I was on line when this thread first started....

My hair was chemically fried (permanently straightened) from the age of 9 and it has been burned out many times...started wearing extension braids in my 20's....when I reached my late 30's, I got tired of the hours it spent to braid and unbraid the extentions and I decided to lock it.

AND I LOVE IT!!!!!! It's so much healthier than the chemicals or the constant pulling on my hairline from the braids. I feel like singing like that little muppet character..."I luv my hair....I luv my hair!" After all these years, I can say that I do love my natural nappy hair. My sister has a weave and is always complaining about having to "do her hair" when we go somewhere. I keep telling her to lock it. My hair is finallly wash and go and as a person who is constantly in the gym, I cant tell sisters enough how much easier it is.

I did not find your quesion offensive at all and thank you for asking. Natural hair may be harder for some of us to pshycologically (sp) accept due to years of brainwashing from European media, but once you get over that hurdle, you simply don't give a fuck anymore. I am beautiful just the way I was made. And ironically, black men seem to like me more this way.

Lammastide said:

StillGotIt said:

I think people who live in segregated parts need to get out more...it isn't right for folks to sit in their little world and look through a distant telescope at another culture. Regardless of intent, its simply not respectful. If you want to learn about a people, spend some time among them.

I feel you. But segregation is sometimes a two-way thing. Ace, for example, hasn't locked himself away, making cultural assumptions or reading some sketchy mess on the internet and going out thinking he's an expert on Black folk. He actually asked Black folk with whom he interacts almost daily and whose first-hand insight he apparently respects -- us. and since we represent Black folk from literally all over the world, what better representation of our diversity could he tap? If we're offended by simply being asked respectfully about a part of our culture(s), then what?

[Edited 4/9/11 12:20pm]

Missed this post before. I've got to say it makes a lot of sense. And in the spirit of Lammastide's words the thread seems to be back on track again.

How long do corn rows take to do? I remember growing up, when in my borderline wigga phase, I really wanted to get it done (I bet it would've looked crap ). Is there a lot of upkeep each day? These days I just wish I could keep enough of my hair to be able to do anything other than getting it trimmed short and it just kinda being there, on my head, doing nothing in particular.

Fauxie said:

How long do corn rows take to do? I remember growing up, when in my borderline wigga phase, I really wanted to get it done (I bet it would've looked crap ). Is there a lot of upkeep each day? These days I just wish I could keep enough of my hair to be able to do anything other than getting it trimmed short and it just kinda being there, on my head, doing nothing in particular.

cornrows usually take only a few hours....it single braids that can take from 8-12 hours and take about five to six hours to take down. Compared to single braids, cornrows are easy.

illimack said:

Fauxie said:

How long do corn rows take to do? I remember growing up, when in my borderline wigga phase, I really wanted to get it done (I bet it would've looked crap ). Is there a lot of upkeep each day? These days I just wish I could keep enough of my hair to be able to do anything other than getting it trimmed short and it just kinda being there, on my head, doing nothing in particular.

cornrows usually take only a few hours....it single braids that can take from 8-12 hours and take about five to six hours to take down. Compared to single braids, cornrows are easy.

Thanks for the info. A few hours I could handle. I have no idea about the process though, not that I'm about to go get cornrows. Once upon a time...

So with cornrows you can do a whole lot more hair at a time, which is why it's quicker?

As far as on women, I've always thought like this looks hot

More so than with more and thinner rows