PANDURITO said:

ZombieKitten said:

Retreat

they are still on the swedish, german DVD cover

chucked off the russian and argentinian ones

ZombieKitten said:

Indeed

I can't believe ANYONE would think taking that couple off has ANYTHING to do with racism.

Or maybe you're right and in France they don't hate Australians. You know how weird those Frenchies are

PANDURITO said:

I can't believe ANYONE would think taking that couple off has ANYTHING to do with racism.

Or maybe you're right and in France they don't hate Australians. You know how weird those Frenchies are

if they heard his real accent they would chuck him off for sure though

crazydoctor said:

ThreadBare said:

So, I ask again: What are legitimate claims of exclusion of blacks from casting for major motion pictures?

Is it (always) an overblown case of blacks and other minorities whining for The Man to include them?

Is it ever a valid claim that homogenous casting -- which predominates much of major Hollywood releasesyear after year -- is flawed casting?

Or is including nonwhite characters or changing white characters to nonwhite during production -- sometimes for the sake of having them -- progress?

(The staggering lack of studio support for most black-written vehicles is why I ask?)

Writers are afraid to write minority characters for fear of offending. If they just write them as they would white characters, or any arbitrary characters, then there will be complaints that the characters have been whitewashed, removed of racial identity. If they write the characters with their culture and race in mind, then there will be complaints of stereotyping.

That begs somewhat of a chicken-or-the-egg question -- and one that doesn't bode well in the favor of mass media history. Swaths of people, much less multiple swaths of people, would scarcely have reason to make such complaints without... well... historical reason to make such complaints.

Meanwhile, it's a pathetic cop out. Even if we talk only about white characters, the cultural nuances among them (and they do exist) have long since been recognized and spoken to in various degrees of subtlety by writers/producers worth their weight in salt. That the same personnel can't then approach non-white characters with a similar appreciation for variance -- safely between the poles of caricature and utter invisibility -- is a silly thought. Even sillier is the thought that a multibillion-dollar global machine couldn't replace that incompetent personnel with others that could with more sophistication depict the publics whose money they seek to take. And those publics have shown time and again that, while you can't please all the people all the time, they are positively responsive when they are done justice in the media.

ZombieKitten said:

Rove McManus is kind of cute.

crazydoctor said:

ThreadBare said:

So, I ask again: What are legitimate claims of exclusion of blacks from casting for major motion pictures?

Is it (always) an overblown case of blacks and other minorities whining for The Man to include them?

Is it ever a valid claim that homogenous casting -- which predominates much of major Hollywood releasesyear after year -- is flawed casting?

Or is including nonwhite characters or changing white characters to nonwhite during production -- sometimes for the sake of having them -- progress?

(The staggering lack of studio support for most black-written vehicles is why I ask?)

Writers are afraid to write minority characters for fear of offending. If they just write them as they would white characters, or any arbitrary characters, then there will be complaints that the characters have been whitewashed, removed of racial identity. If they write the characters with their culture and race in mind, then there will be complaints of stereotyping.

Bullshit.

Victim-blaming bullshit.

"We can't rectify the wrongs that we perpetuate, because the victims of said wrongs won't be pleased no matter what we do!"

GTFOOHWTBS.

Lammastide said:

crazydoctor said:

Writers are afraid to write minority characters for fear of offending. If they just write them as they would white characters, or any arbitrary characters, then there will be complaints that the characters have been whitewashed, removed of racial identity. If they write the characters with their culture and race in mind, then there will be complaints of stereotyping.

That begs somewhat of a chicken-or-the-egg question -- and one that doesn't bode well in the favor of mass media history. Swaths of people, much less multiple swaths of people, would scarcely have reason to make such complaints without... well... historical reason to make such complaints.

Meanwhile, it's a pathetic cop out. Even if we talk only about white characters, the cultural nuances among them (and they do exist) have long since been recognized and spoken to in various degrees of subtlety by writers/producers worth their weight in salt. That the same personnel can't then approach non-white characters with a similar appreciation for variance -- safely between the poles of caricature and utter invisibility -- is a silly thought. Even sillier is the thought that a multibillion-dollar global machine couldn't replace that incompetent personnel with others that could with more sophistication depict the publics whose money they seek to take. And those publics have shown time and again that, while you can't please all the people all the time, they are positively responsive when they are done justice in the media.

I'm not saying the writers couldn't do it. I'm saying it's a risk, and the writers and producers are probably wondering if it's worth the risk. The reward has to be worth the risk. And regardless of how authentic the depiction may be, there will be people that do not agree with it. In the case of an inauthentic depiction of a white person, the controversy/hoopla will be far less... the writer is willing to take the risk...

No writing is perfect, there has to be some suspension of disbelief... I'm sure those cultural nuances among white people are seen by a lot of people to simply be stereotypes.

Another issue is the perception of a minority character as a representation of a larger group... In the case of minority character, the writer can't just a write a character to the story... he has to keep in mind that the public will to some degree, see this character as a representation of this minority group... that carries a responsibility which the writer may not want to take... again, this exists with white characters too with different cultural backgrounds, but the degree is far less...

PunkMistress said:

crazydoctor said:

Writers are afraid to write minority characters for fear of offending. If they just write them as they would white characters, or any arbitrary characters, then there will be complaints that the characters have been whitewashed, removed of racial identity. If they write the characters with their culture and race in mind, then there will be complaints of stereotyping.

Bullshit.

Victim-blaming bullshit.

"We can't rectify the wrongs that we perpetuate, because the victims of said wrongs won't be pleased no matter what we do!"

GTFOOHWTBS.

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

crazydoctor said:

PunkMistress said:

Bullshit.

Victim-blaming bullshit.

"We can't rectify the wrongs that we perpetuate, because the victims of said wrongs won't be pleased no matter what we do!"

GTFOOHWTBS.

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

Just because we don't see more minority characters doesn't mean they are not written. A lot of folk's material never even sees the light of day. Whether it's hate or not might be a grey area but it is a reality that folk like to perpetuate what they feel comfortable with.

crazydoctor said:

Lammastide said:

That begs somewhat of a chicken-or-the-egg question -- and one that doesn't bode well in the favor of mass media history. Swaths of people, much less multiple swaths of people, would scarcely have reason to make such complaints without... well... historical reason to make such complaints.

Meanwhile, it's a pathetic cop out. Even if we talk only about white characters, the cultural nuances among them (and they do exist) have long since been recognized and spoken to in various degrees of subtlety by writers/producers worth their weight in salt. That the same personnel can't then approach non-white characters with a similar appreciation for variance -- safely between the poles of caricature and utter invisibility -- is a silly thought. Even sillier is the thought that a multibillion-dollar global machine couldn't replace that incompetent personnel with others that could with more sophistication depict the publics whose money they seek to take. And those publics have shown time and again that, while you can't please all the people all the time, they are positively responsive when they are done justice in the media.

I'm not saying the writers couldn't do it. I'm saying it's a risk, and the writers and producers are probably wondering if it's worth the risk. The reward has to be worth the risk. And regardless of how authentic the depiction may be, there will be people that do not agree with it. In the case of an inauthentic depiction of a white person, the controversy/hoopla will be far less... the writer is willing to take the risk...

No writing is perfect, there has to be some suspension of disbelief... I'm sure those cultural nuances among white people are seen by a lot of people to simply be stereotypes.

Another issue is the perception of a minority character as a representation of a larger group... In the case of minority character, the writer can't just a write a character to the story... he has to keep in mind that the public will to some degree, see this character as a representation of this minority group... that carries a responsibility which the writer may not want to take... again, this exists with white characters too with different cultural backgrounds, but the degree is far less...

Can't totally disagree. Because folk have been conditioned to approach fictional characters -- and especially cultural minority characters these days -- as archetype rather than individual case studies, there is more at stake in these depictions. But, again, I think this has long been supply-driven, to use a more commercial vernacular. And perhaps the problem is Hollywood has spiralled into little more than a thing of commerce. Art, as it were -- good art -- is visionary on the other hand. And so is the artist. They do engage the risk, not because they anticipate a safe return on investment, but because good art says something damned-near prophetic about the people, relationships and settings it addresses. That said, when a story meets that level of statement -- and production companies follow through on some commitment to make that statement visible to audiences -- audiences often recognize it... and the money follows.

Of course some folk will always be angry about depictions they don't feel are genuine. Even characterizations as seemingly dignified as the Huxtables were fodder for debate (justifiably in some ways; self-defeatingly in others). But look at the cultural memory -- and, incidentally, the financial return -- that the Cosby Show enjoyed. Were producers/writers/creative consultants/etc. complete pansies about that project, it may never have taken flight, and black folk on TV (where they appear at all) might still be making us laugh with buffoonery out of their government-subsidized housing unit.

I think if/when creative teams do start to deliver more varied depictions of ethnic individuals (which I do believe is an issue of competence and sheer cultural literacy as much as balls), audiences will appreciate that, and there will be a gradually decreasing default at offense for having been ignored or patronized... yet again. But I think this is a situation where Hollywood needs to take the first steps toward correction, unsure though they may be. There certainly was no hesitance in years prior to taking those first steps toward destructive characterizations.

[Edited 12/2/10 8:58am]

crazydoctor said:

PunkMistress said:

Bullshit.

Victim-blaming bullshit.

"We can't rectify the wrongs that we perpetuate, because the victims of said wrongs won't be pleased no matter what we do!"

GTFOOHWTBS.

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

I wouldn't call it hate so much as a deeply ingrained culture of excluding, ignoring and marginalizing.

PunkMistress said:

crazydoctor said:

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

I wouldn't call it hate so much as a deeply ingrained culture of excluding, ignoring and marginalizing.

...And utter oblivion.

Lammastide said:

PunkMistress said:

I wouldn't call it hate so much as a deeply ingrained culture of excluding, ignoring and marginalizing.

...And utter oblivion.

Which is what allows people to be so utterly offended and flabbergasted when it's pointed out.

To paraphrase an anti-racist educator, it's like "trying to explain wetness to a fish."

crazydoctor said:

PunkMistress said:

Bullshit.

Victim-blaming bullshit.

"We can't rectify the wrongs that we perpetuate, because the victims of said wrongs won't be pleased no matter what we do!"

GTFOOHWTBS.

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

*my* little book features an equal balances of colors. (see, link below)

XxAxX said:

crazydoctor said:

So why don't writers write more minority characters? Are they all just racists who hate non-whites?

*my* little book features an equal balances of colors. (see, link below)

I hope that's abundantly clear for when the film adaptation comes about.

Lammastide said:

XxAxX said:

*my* little book features an equal balances of colors. (see, link below)

I hope that's abundantly clear for when the film adaptation comes about.

:sorry: couldn't resist the urge to point it out. only did it because of all the threads here in ORGsville.

XxAxX said:

Lammastide said:

I hope that's abundantly clear for when the film adaptation comes about.

:sorry: couldn't resist the urge to point it out. only did it because of all the threads here in ORGsville.

Hey, ain't nothing wrong with self promotion.

On huge budget mainstream movie that feature a hero, often it's just the international appeal of an actor (past revenue as evidence) that puts them in consideration.

These days, Will Smith is always a contender, and it's interesting to note how sometimes the original vision of a screenwriter is someone of a completely different race then the person that ultimately gets the role. Originally the planned 2nd remake of what turned came out as "I am Legend" was supposed to star Arnold Swartznegger back in the mid 90's.

Here's one of the times that Saturday Night Live directly addressed racism in the face with a sketch... and really crossed a certain line at the end...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1477/saturday-night-live-word-association

U.S. Version

U.K. Version

Universal issued a statement regretting any offense it caused (translation: we're sorry we got caught), and the studio scrapped all plans to use the modified poster in other overseas markets. Or so they said.

[Edited 12/2/10 11:56am]

Identity said:

Universal scrapped all plans to use the modified poster in other overseas markets.

the gullible

ZombieKitten said:

I'm shocked at the couples retreat

Yeah, that looks really bad.

Although, I was already shocked by this movie, shocked by how terrible it was. Hands down worse movie of the year.

ufoclub said:

Here's one of the times that Saturday Night Live directly addressed racism in the face with a sketch... and really crossed a certain line at the end...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1477/saturday-night-live-word-association

Wow I'm surprised they went there.

johnart said:

ufoclub said:

Here's one of the times that Saturday Night Live directly addressed racism in the face with a sketch... and really crossed a certain line at the end...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1477/saturday-night-live-word-association

Wow I'm surprised they went there.

I know! DARING.

I don't think it would happen today.

ufoclub said:

johnart said:

Wow I'm surprised they went there.

I know! DARING.

I don't think it would happen today.

Oh it wouldn't. And if it did it would probably have to be someone like Dave Chappelle involved to possibly get away with it.

Alright bear with me all you JRR Tolkien fans but uh....

If all the characters in this trio of folklore were to be pale skinned and representative of some british ideal or British mythical/fantasy creature (e.g. elves, dwarfs, hobbits, humans that resemble british noblemen) then uh....why was that army just outside moldor (sp) made up of brown skinned arabic looking peoples all dressed in red and black. shit they could pass for modern day taliban. I'm thinking of the scene from Return of the King. Also, if one really wanted to cry racism or colorism or just "ism" period then one could take offense that the larger orks (sp) that were born out of the ground all happened to be very dark skinned and nearly black and that the only women in the film were all pale skinned, very thin, white women with hair down to their arses - not even a brown eyed chick among the bunch.

I'd like to sympathise with Mz Humphreys but come on....a lot of the mystical and history **cough** theirstory films that are the creation of British writers and European film directors is almost always whitewashed. She can be angry but should she be surprised?

Edit>

[Edited 12/2/10 15:50pm]

DesireeNevermind said:

If all the characters in this trio of folklore were to be pale skinned and representative of some british ideal or British mythical/fantasy creature (e.g. elves, dwarfs, hobbits, humans that resemble british noblemen) then uh....why was that army just outside moldor (sp) made up of brown skinned arabic looking peoples all dressed in red and black. shit they could pass for modern day taliban. I'm thinking of the scene from Return of the King.

The Easterlings was the name of that group.

Identity said:

Edit>

mmmm