deebee said:

PurpleJedi said:

Seriously...have we no bigger fish to fry?

It's a movie about a ficticious world.

Yep, I can't argue with the fact that there are bigger fish to fry overall in the world. I do always find people's different interpretations of and reactions to this sort of story very revealing, though -- often more so than the original event -- and I can sort of see why it's worth tossing it over a bit, in that respect.

I agree. I find both sides of the argument/discussion endlessly fascinating. The core of this issue is very much still what keeps us, the human race, sperated on a global scale. Seeing how far apart we are on these issues as individuals makes it very clear why it's still a problem.

At least the original, singular fish in question was, apparently, very quickly fried.

Cerebus said:

lust said:

This just in from The New Zealand Herald website, the casting agent has been sacked sand at the bottom is an apparent quote from the books that Harfoots were of browner skin so I stand corrected. If there were Brown skinned hobbits in the books then they should be in the movies.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz...d=10691068

Cool. Glad to hear it.

It's interesting that the filmmakers themselves are trying to clarify that the casting director wasn't instructed to do this and they don't condone it (which seems to chime with the point you were making about PJ and his crew), whereas many people on this thread are rushing to defend the idea that there absolutely should be a colour bar in place.

Cerebus said:

deebee said:

Yep, I can't argue with the fact that there are bigger fish to fry overall in the world. I do always find people's different interpretations of and reactions to this sort of story very revealing, though -- often more so than the original event -- and I can sort of see why it's worth tossing it over a bit, in that respect.

I agree. I find both sides of the argument/discussion endlessly fascinating. The core of this issue is very much still what keeps us, the human race, sperated on a global scale. Seeing how far apart we are on these issues as individuals makes it very clear why it's still a problem.

At least the original, singular fish in question was, apparently, very quickly fried.

Yes, absolutely. Plus, the stories themselves must say something to our own world, or else we'd likely have little interest in them. That's surely true of movies like Avatar, too. It's like with sci-fi: it's ostensibly about some other world elsewhere in the universe, or another time, etc, but it's really our own world that it 'speaks to'.

deebee said:

Cerebus said:

Cool. Glad to hear it.

It's interesting that the filmmakers themselves are trying to clarify that the casting director wasn't instructed to do this and they don't condone it (which seems to chime with the point you were making about PJ and his crew), whereas many people on this thread are rushing to defend the idea that there absolutely should be a colour bar in place.

Thank you for noticing. I thought that was the more important issue in this case and decided to just sidestep those other landmines altogether. I don't know the man or his staff/crew personally, but I'm VERY familiar with their work. There is no reason to believe that they'd condone such an antiquated notion. Most of the actors (and extras) in the LOTR movies were so covered with makeup and prosthetics that their original color would never be seen anyway. And if you know which characters are in The Hobbit and have already been cast, it's pretty safe to assume in this instance that they were just dealing with a dimwitted casting agent.

It would be interesting to see different hues in the movie. Although I must admit, I wouldn't expect to see it or miss it at all if all the actors were of the same hue.

[Edited 11/30/10 2:31am]

Marrk said:

Fair enough. Considering the source material for the film, I don't see a problem here at all.

You can't shoehorn every nationality into every film just to please the politically 'correct'.

.

[Edited 11/29/10 10:31am]

Cerebus said:

deebee said:

It's interesting that the filmmakers themselves are trying to clarify that the casting director wasn't instructed to do this and they don't condone it (which seems to chime with the point you were making about PJ and his crew), whereas many people on this thread are rushing to defend the idea that there absolutely should be a colour bar in place.

Thank you for noticing. I thought that was the more important issue in this case and decided to just sidestep those other landmines altogether. I don't know the man or his staff/crew personally, but I'm VERY familiar with their work. There is no reason to believe that they'd condone such an antiquated notion. Most of the actors (and extras) in the LOTR movies were so covered with makeup and prosthetics that their original color would never be seen anyway. And if you know which characters are in The Hobbit and have already been cast, it's pretty safe to assume in this instance that they were just dealing with a dimwitted casting agent.

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

ufoclub said:

Cerebus said:

Thank you for noticing. I thought that was the more important issue in this case and decided to just sidestep those other landmines altogether. I don't know the man or his staff/crew personally, but I'm VERY familiar with their work. There is no reason to believe that they'd condone such an antiquated notion. Most of the actors (and extras) in the LOTR movies were so covered with makeup and prosthetics that their original color would never be seen anyway. And if you know which characters are in The Hobbit and have already been cast, it's pretty safe to assume in this instance that they were just dealing with a dimwitted casting agent.

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

Might?

Graycap23 said:

ufoclub said:

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

Might?

Well, I still think that in making a fictional reality, if a species of beings was supposed to look "white" then so be it. Of course, casting could have still looked at anyone applying, and then narrowed it down behind the scenes to what fits the concept.

I helped shoot a film once that had a concept for a fictional Southern "white" elitist fraternity luring in a racial variety of attractive college women to their exclusive party, but there were people of all sizes and colors that showed up to play as extras in the background. It was very uncomfortable to hear the producer telling a male extra to stay out of frame because of their color. And the occasional female extra that didn't fit the character description was edited out in post.

And while I'm not too concerned with how multiculturally diverse a "Hobbit" film turns out to be (though I don't see how having dark-skinned varieties of mythical creatures would upend a Tolkien adaptation in any way), I think Hollywood as a rule still has a way to go in consistently acknowledging nonwhites as holistically beautiful and interesting.

And, by Hollywood, I'm not just talking filmmakers, studios and casting executives -- I'm also talking about the machine that supports and helps promote movies (entertainment shows, websites, magazines, et cetera).

andykeen said:

Obviously, there are no blacks in the land of Middle Earth and it's stories because it is derived entirely of Anglo-saxen (which Tolkein was a proffessor of at Oxford University) Celtic, and Norse lore which were all of the white race.

You see, the entire world of Middle Earth is based upon the mythology of these, and so it would be absurded to add a black character to the story. Middle Earth is, as a fantasy, supposed to be Europe, or more specificaly England, tens of thousands of years ago in a time that was lost and unknown to us - a place of lore and magic.

All of the characters in the book are English folk, and English culture is throughout it.

Imagine a fantasy written about the ancient history of Africa, it's people, and it's culture. Would you expect any whites to be there? Of course not. The same goes for The Lord of the Rings.

I assure you, it has nothing to do with racism or the ideals of discrimination very common in Tolkein's time. Any who suggest it know nothing of The Lord of the Rings.

And all of that magic, lore, mythology and beauty would be so horribly spoiled by some brown skin?

Like I said.

SSDD.

PunkMistress said:

andykeen said:

Obviously, there are no blacks in the land of Middle Earth and it's stories because it is derived entirely of Anglo-saxen (which Tolkein was a proffessor of at Oxford University) Celtic, and Norse lore which were all of the white race.

You see, the entire world of Middle Earth is based upon the mythology of these, and so it would be absurded to add a black character to the story. Middle Earth is, as a fantasy, supposed to be Europe, or more specificaly England, tens of thousands of years ago in a time that was lost and unknown to us - a place of lore and magic.

All of the characters in the book are English folk, and English culture is throughout it.

Imagine a fantasy written about the ancient history of Africa, it's people, and it's culture. Would you expect any whites to be there? Of course not. The same goes for The Lord of the Rings.

I assure you, it has nothing to do with racism or the ideals of discrimination very common in Tolkein's time. Any who suggest it know nothing of The Lord of the Rings.

And all of that magic, lore, mythology and beauty would be so horribly spoiled by some brown skin?

Like I said.

SSDD.

SUPRMAN said:

DrRockdapuss said:

SUPRMAN said:

Does it say Orcs are Black?

That I don't recall, I recall foul smelling, blackened teeth, . . . .

by that, i just meant their skin isn't visible, so they might have been played by black actors.

true

[img:$uid]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii282/HeliosSister/LMakoare.jpg[/img:$uid]

he played the witch king and some principle commanding orcs. but he's not black of course not that it matters.

ufoclub said:

Cerebus said:

Thank you for noticing. I thought that was the more important issue in this case and decided to just sidestep those other landmines altogether. I don't know the man or his staff/crew personally, but I'm VERY familiar with their work. There is no reason to believe that they'd condone such an antiquated notion. Most of the actors (and extras) in the LOTR movies were so covered with makeup and prosthetics that their original color would never be seen anyway. And if you know which characters are in The Hobbit and have already been cast, it's pretty safe to assume in this instance that they were just dealing with a dimwitted casting agent.

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

I'm kind of over discussing things with you right now because you seem to just constantly be contradictory without supplying any facts to back your point of view. I've watched all three extended versions of the LOTR about 30 times (just watched them a couple weeks ago). I'm glad you've seen them, too, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. It's a pointless argument in this case. If you'd like to make a pointed argument you might want to wait until The Hobbit movies have been released and judge those. However, there is only ONE HOBBIT to be cast in that movie and it was already done before this casting call. All of the Dwarves had been cast, too. It's clearly stated that this was an extras casting call. If you watch the Special Features included with the Extended Versions of the LOTR (I'm assuming you've done that) you will see that MANY of the extras were "brown". Several of them are even regularly interviewed throughout the Special Features, even though you never see them out of their makeup in the films. Also, since I've actually been following this entire process, many of their current "issues" have been with a New Zealand actors union and the New Zealand Film Board, both of whom would certainly WANT the "brown" Maori people to be used (once again) in these films. So that "might be" nonsense can also be tossed.

Lastly, I'm not sure what all the nonsense is about Tolkien and the world he created. "Browner of skin" doesn't mean they were black. As has been mentioned, Tolkien was white and he was writing a white, Anglo-Saxon mythilogical history. I've read everything the man has written and all the books studying what he has written too many times to count. There aren't any black races featured in his writing. That doesn't make him a racist, nor does it make the filmmakers racists for sticking to what was written, nor does it make me a racist for believing that's the way they SHOULD be doing it. It's just a book, or a movie - and it's meant to be escapists entertainment. It's not a political or racial statement. The people who are trying to make it one are clearly missing the point. Many points in fact, because these books preach tolerance of others ways and beliefs quite loudly. If this type of thing is important to you go out and do something about it where it actually matters, because this doesn't. Getting all indignant about this, like it's somehow important that there all of a sudden be black races is Middle-Earth after 60 years is ludicrously ridiculous.

ThreadBare said:

PANDURITO said:

Google...movie...racism claims

The Hobbit, Cleopatra, Sex And The City 2, Avatar, Machete, Transformers 2, The Dead...

Oh well

What racism claims to you are legitimate?

In the movies? That's a toughie

Cerebus said:

ufoclub said:

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

I'm kind of over discussing things with you right now because you seem to just constantly be contradictory without supplying any facts to back your point of view. I've watched all three extended versions of the LOTR about 30 times (just watched them a couple weeks ago). I'm glad you've seen them, too, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. It's a pointless argument in this case. If you'd like to make a pointed argument you might want to wait until The Hobbit movies have been released and judge those. However, there is only ONE HOBBIT to be cast in that movie and it was already done before this casting call. All of the Dwarves had been cast, too. It's clearly stated that this was an extras casting call. If you watch the Special Features included with the Extended Versions of the LOTR (I'm assuming you've done that) you will see that MANY of the extras were "brown". Several of them are even regularly interviewed throughout the Special Features, even though you never see them out of their makeup in the films. Also, since I've actually been following this entire process, many of their current "issues" have been with a New Zealand actors union and the New Zealand Film Board, both of whom would certainly WANT the "brown" Maori people to be used (once again) in these films. So that "might be" nonsense can also be tossed.

Lastly, I'm not sure what all the nonsense is about Tolkien and the world he created. "Browner of skin" doesn't mean they were black. As has been mentioned, Tolkien was white and he was writing a white, Anglo-Saxon mythilogical history. I've read everything the man has written and all the books studying what he has written too many times to count. There aren't any black races featured in his writing. That doesn't make him a racist, nor does it make the filmmakers racists for sticking to what was written, nor does it make me a racist for believing that's the way they SHOULD be doing it. It's just a book, or a movie - and it's meant to be escapists entertainment. It's not a political or racial statement. The people who are trying to make it one are clearly missing the point. Many points in fact, because these books preach tolerance of others ways and beliefs quite loudly. If this type of thing is important to you go out and do something about it where it actually matters, because this doesn't. Getting all indignant about this, like it's somehow important that there all of a sudden be black races is Middle-Earth after 60 years is ludicrously ridiculous.

Where have I not had facts? Here's the quote ""We are looking for light-skinned people. I'm not trying to be... whatever. It's just the brief. You've got to look like a hobbit." and then I just watched the beginning of Fellowship of the Rings with the extended Hobbit lesson, and they all seemed to be caucasian, and they seemed to have little modification outside of ears and wigs on their faces. Is this not true?

And, I'm all for casting with limitations appropriate for the concept. In other words, a brown or black Hobbit would seem a bit contrived to me.

It seems like you've become indignant, doesn't it?

[Edited 11/30/10 17:19pm]

I find this quite ridiculous of an argument. I swear, some people will find anything to cause a stir over. I mean, as a woman of color, I find NO offense if I went to a casting call like this and they told me they wanted fair skinned people. The writer has a certain idea in mind, and that should be followed without hesitation. As a writer, if I was ever able to have my work made into a movie, I would want the race of the person cast as I visualized it...who cares what other people think?!?!? Damn, its just a movie! And I've never pictured the hobbits with anything but light/fair skin...

Cerebus said:

ufoclub said:

Actually, having just watched the opening to "Fellowship of the Ring" with the extended intro about Hobbits, they try to use as much of the original actor's face as possible, with wigs and false ears in place. And it appeared they were all Caucasian.

The politics of film production dictate that with the already super cautious financing issues, the filmmakers avoid any negative publicity, and this production has had years of problems getting greenlit. It makes sense that they would fire the casting guy and renounce the casting call, but to tell you the truth, they might be fudging their original attitude, and covering up.

I'm kind of over discussing things with you right now because you seem to just constantly be contradictory without supplying any facts to back your point of view. I've watched all three extended versions of the LOTR about 30 times (just watched them a couple weeks ago). I'm glad you've seen them, too, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. It's a pointless argument in this case. If you'd like to make a pointed argument you might want to wait until The Hobbit movies have been released and judge those. However, there is only ONE HOBBIT to be cast in that movie and it was already done before this casting call. All of the Dwarves had been cast, too. It's clearly stated that this was an extras casting call. If you watch the Special Features included with the Extended Versions of the LOTR (I'm assuming you've done that) you will see that MANY of the extras were "brown". Several of them are even regularly interviewed throughout the Special Features, even though you never see them out of their makeup in the films. Also, since I've actually been following this entire process, many of their current "issues" have been with a New Zealand actors union and the New Zealand Film Board, both of whom would certainly WANT the "brown" Maori people to be used (once again) in these films. So that "might be" nonsense can also be tossed.

Lastly, I'm not sure what all the nonsense is about Tolkien and the world he created. "Browner of skin" doesn't mean they were black. As has been mentioned, Tolkien was white and he was writing a white, Anglo-Saxon mythilogical history. I've read everything the man has written and all the books studying what he has written too many times to count. There aren't any black races featured in his writing. That doesn't make him a racist, nor does it make the filmmakers racists for sticking to what was written, nor does it make me a racist for believing that's the way they SHOULD be doing it. It's just a book, or a movie - and it's meant to be escapists entertainment. It's not a political or racial statement. The people who are trying to make it one are clearly missing the point. Many points in fact, because these books preach tolerance of others ways and beliefs quite loudly. If this type of thing is important to you go out and do something about it where it actually matters, because this doesn't. Getting all indignant about this, like it's somehow important that there all of a sudden be black races is Middle-Earth after 60 years is ludicrously ridiculous.

Great point

DaphneLovesPR1NCE said:

I find this quite ridiculous of an argument. I swear, some people will find anything to cause a stir over. I mean, as a woman of color, I find NO offense if I went to a casting call like this and they told me they wanted fair skinned people. The writer has a certain idea in mind, and that should be followed without hesitation. As a writer, if I was ever able to have my work made into a movie, I would want the race of the person cast as I visualized it...who cares what other people think?!?!? Damn, its just a movie! And I've never pictured the hobbits with anything but light/fair skin...

Major kudos

"It's only a movie." -- Prince, Make Believe

[Edited 12/1/10 5:37am]

andykeen said:

Obviously, there are no blacks in the land of Middle Earth and it's stories because it is derived entirely of Anglo-saxen (which Tolkein was a proffessor of at Oxford University) Celtic, and Norse lore which were all of the white race.

You see, the entire world of Middle Earth is based upon the mythology of these, and so it would be absurded to add a black character to the story. Middle Earth is, as a fantasy, supposed to be Europe, or more specificaly England, tens of thousands of years ago in a time that was lost and unknown to us - a place of lore and magic.

All of the characters in the book are English folk, and English culture is throughout it.

Imagine a fantasy written about the ancient history of Africa, it's people, and it's culture. Would you expect any whites to be there? Of course not. The same goes for The Lord of the Rings.

I assure you, it has nothing to do with racism or the ideals of discrimination very common in Tolkein's time. Any who suggest it know nothing of The Lord of the Rings.

lust said:

DrRockdapuss said:

The shit is ludicrous.

I love how any adaptation that isn't happening now and on Earth is automatically cast as White and British.

Ancient Rome

Biblical films

Space films

Middle Earth

The Empire

Mt. Olympus

Always White and British. Why is that?

Billy D Williams

Sam Jackson

Temuera Morrison all had main rolls in the Star Wars movies

Billy and Sam were not Empire.

And Temuera got painted green.

DrRockdapuss said:

lust said:

Billy D Williams

Sam Jackson

Temuera Morrison all had main rolls in the Star Wars movies

Billy and Sam were not Empire.

And Temuera got painted green.

PANDURITO said:

DrRockdapuss said:

Billy and Sam were not Empire.

And Temuera got painted green.

My mistake. I thought Temuera was this lady.

poor pakistani lady, all she did was vent herself to a few friends on facebook, and some news hound got a hold of it, and against her wishes turned this into a media firestorm. i hope she doesn't get labeled in the business or anything losing out on opportunities for herself.

Aren't these movies supposed to be like groundbreaking in makeup and movie effects??

This is hobbits we're trynna cast right? Not Gabourey Sidibe in the title role of The Diary of Anne Frank.

[Edited 12/1/10 12:33pm]

johnart said:

Aren't these movies supposed to be like groundbreaking in makeup and movie effects??

but it's just an extra cost to put someone in "whiteface" if the role is supposed to be a lighter skinned aesthetic. It would be a scandal the other way!

johnart said:

Aren't these movies supposed to be like groundbreaking in makeup and movie effects??

This is hobbits we're trynna cast right? Not Gabourey Sidibe in the title role of The Diary of Anne Frank.

[Edited 12/1/10 12:33pm]

I'd pay good money to see that adaptation.

ufoclub said:

johnart said:

Aren't these movies supposed to be like groundbreaking in makeup and movie effects??

but it's just an extra cost to put someone in "whiteface" if the role is supposed to be a lighter skinned aesthetic. It would be a scandal the other way!

I know what you're saying and I agree that someone, of course, would take issue. But come on.

I've not read the books, but from all I've read here seems they just need to be pale (the creatures not the actors). First, there's pale people of color. If a black person were to play an albino, it would be ridiculous to put up a stink because their skin was to be lightened, even though a white actor's skin could be closer in color. It would just make sense that a black actor would have their skin lightened, because , well, how do I put this...they are NOT PLAYING THEMSELVES. A black person is not a hobbit and if a hobbit was written to be pale, then it's just dumb to make a stink if you're already getting to play the role. Black actors are made pale to play zombies and that sort of silly things all the time.

[Edited 12/1/10 12:59pm]