PicklesMcMillan said:

Cinnie said:

this song is so ironic

because they dont REALLY have tons of money, jets, and fuckin bitches that dont speak english but people believe them and in turn they get more money than they had before from a hit song, more respect they before because they made money off the song

Isn't that what the law of attraction is all about? You have to sell "the dream" before you get to live it.

Cinnie said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

this song is so ironic

because they dont REALLY have tons of money, jets, and fuckin bitches that dont speak english but people believe them and in turn they get more money than they had before from a hit song, more respect they before because they made money off the song

Isn't that what the law of attraction is all about? You have to sell "the dream" before you get to live it.

yeah, why though? why do you have to lie about who you are to get where you wanna be ?

PicklesMcMillan said:

Cinnie said:

Isn't that what the law of attraction is all about? You have to sell "the dream" before you get to live it.

yeah, why though? why do you have to lie about who you are to get where you wanna be ?

Because you have to show you're a good liar to keep it goin' when you get there.

Cinnie said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

yeah, why though? why do you have to lie about who you are to get where you wanna be ?

Because you have to show you're a good liar to keep it goin' when you get there.

and now were back to square one , is possible to be successful without being shady ?..

[Edited 10/3/10 12:35pm]

PicklesMcMillan said:

Ace said:

That would depend on your definition of "successful".

I think Garry Shandling put it best, when he said, "Nice guys finish first. If you don't know that, then you don't know where the finish line is."

but why should you and i be good and decent people?......

As Shandling's saying, the real definition of success is being proud of your actions in life. From personal experience, it will also make you feel good to do good things for others.

The corollary, of course, is that leading a "deceitful, greedy, and conniving" life will make it hard to sleep at night. And people who do so usually get busted, at some point, and/or they find that the "rewards" of this kind of behaviour are ephemeral and hollow.

So, that's why I feel that you and I should be good and decent people.

Ace said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

but why should you and i be good and decent people?......

As Shandling's saying, the real definition of success is being proud of your actions in life. From personal experience, it will also make you feel good to do good things for others.

The corollary, of course, is that leading a "deceitful, greedy, and conniving" life will make it hard to sleep at night. And people who do so usually get busted, at some point, and/or they find that the "rewards" of this kind of behaviour are ephemeral and hollow.

So, that's why I feel that you and I should be good and decent people.

so we should only be good to make ourselves feel better?that sounds almost shallow ...

what about the people who can sleep at night and feel no remorse? and or never get busted ?

often the success is the validation that their doing the Right things..

what about the many times you've done a good deed and people take advantage of it...did it still make you feel good about yourself?

[Edited 10/3/10 12:34pm]

PicklesMcMillan said:

Cinnie said:

Because you have to show you're a good liar to keep it goin' when you get there.

and now were back to square one , is possible to be successful without being shady ?..

If you're a good liar, it's just your natural life path. If not, stay humble and work hard.

PicklesMcMillan said:

deceitful, greedy, and conniving

what do you think ?

Success is a personal thing

For me ~ Successful people are not deceitful, greedy or conniving

So, Yes

Not only do I think it's possible, I think it's pretty common and not the exception at all. I've been with my company for 15 years; started stocking shelves, and I'm now a mid-level finance manager, and I can absolutely say I've never been treated with anything but complete respect at every level. In the past few years I've worked with a number of sr vice presidents, and I've found them to be the exact kind of people you'd want to be in that position: tough and focused on the bottom line, obviously, but also thoughtful, intelligent and very considerate of the impact their decisions have people's lives. I work for a reasonably big company - $31 billion in sales last year - and my experience has been that dishonest folks, if they manage to make it to a position of any kind of authority, generally don't last. Not to say they're not out there, but I don't believe they're the rule.

And...I'm not going to delude myself and say I'm some kind of amazing success (if I am success, it's a kind that millions & millions have achieved), but I have a steady career and money in the bank and I believe I've been honest, open and behaved with integrity every step of the way, and if I hadn't I don't think I'd have what I've got.

Maybe I'm daft, but that's been my experience.

]

[Edited 10/4/10 10:16am]

My husband and I have done very well for ourselves and have never cheated, stole, or hurt anyone or done anything immoral to get where we are...

I do good because i dont like to see people hurting or sad.. Being good is just natural for me, its not something I have to decide on... Its just my personality...

This isnt saying im a goody two shoes who doesnt know how to have fun either... I just dont do anything that will hurt anyone else.. For example: If I get drunk, I pay for it with a hangover but im not hurting anyone else...

PicklesMcMillan said:

Ace said:

As Shandling's saying, the real definition of success is being proud of your actions in life. From personal experience, it will also make you feel good to do good things for others.

The corollary, of course, is that leading a "deceitful, greedy, and conniving" life will make it hard to sleep at night. And people who do so usually get busted, at some point, and/or they find that the "rewards" of this kind of behaviour are ephemeral and hollow.

So, that's why I feel that you and I should be good and decent people.

so we should only be good to make ourselves feel better?that sounds almost shallow ...

"Selflessness" is a myth. Everything we do, ultimately, is for ourselves.

what about the people who can sleep at night and feel no remorse? and or never get busted ?

It's been my experience that the ones who never get busted are few and far between. As for sleeping at night, it's my belief that (if it doesn't happen immediately), remorse kicks in as people mature. A lot of guilt seems to come to the fore for those on their deathbeds, as people fear what lies next.

often the success is the validation that their doing the Right things..

Well, again, we're talking about a definition of "success" that I find faulty.

what about the many times you've done a good deed and people take advantage of it...did it still make you feel good about yourself?

I've become a much warier person. That said, I still try not to prejudge someone based on the lowest common-denominator. I just watch my back.

damosuzuki said:

my experience has been that dishonest folks, if they manage to make it to a position of any kind of authority, generally don't last.

Exactly.

P.S. Good to see you, damo!

Ace said:

"Selflessness" is a myth. Everything we do, ultimately, is for ourselves.

Nice to see you as well!

I just read Oren Harman's biography of George Price, who formulated an equation that showed that behavior that actually decreases the fitness on an individual while increasing a population's fitness can be an evolutionary stable strategy. Completely fascinating, I thought.

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/flipwilson1/9780393067781_300.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 10/3/10 13:41pm]

Like that New Radicals song?

Cinnie said:

Like that New Radicals song?

Kinda. But not like all of that song.

Ace said:

Cinnie said:

Like that New Radicals song?

Kinda. But not like all of that song.

More like a kick-ass Prince aftershow?

damosuzuki said:

Ace said:

Nice to see you as well!

I just read Oren Harman's biography of George Price, who formulated an equation that showed that behavior that actually decreases the fitness on an individual while increasing a population's fitness can be an evolutionary stable strategy. Completely fascinating, I thought.

[img:$uid]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/flipwilson1/9780393067781_300.jpg[/img:$uid]

[Edited 10/3/10 13:41pm]

thanks for posting this.... i want this book now

but its crazy how he comes 2 the conclusion of Kindness="manufactured" and starts doing all kinds of random acts of kindness.... even though he believes kindness is "fake" or a "Myth"

[Edited 10/3/10 14:02pm]

Ace said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

why be good then... if its a myth?

why are you even being nice to me right now ??

[Edited 10/3/10 14:03pm]

damosuzuki said:

Not only do I think it's possible, I think it's pretty common and not the exception at all. I've been with my company for 15 years; started stocking shelves, and I'm now a mid-level finance manager, and I can absolutely say I've never been treated with anything but complete respect at every level. In the past few years I've worked with a number of sr vice presidents, and I've found them to be the exact kind of people you'd want to be in that position: tough and bottom-line oriented, obviously, but also thoughtful, intelligent and very considerate of the impact their decisions have people's lives. I work for a reasonably big company - $31 billion in sales last year - and my experience has been that dishonest folks, if they manage to make it to a position of any kind of authority, generally don't last. Not to say they're not out there, but I don't believe they're the rule.

And...I'm not going to delude myself and say I'm some kind of amazing success (if I am success, it's a kind that millions & millions have achieved), but I have a steady career and money in the bank and I believe I've been honest, open and behaved with integrity every step of the way, and if I hadn't I don't think I'd have what I've got.

Maybe I'm daft, but that's been my experience.

[Edited 10/3/10 13:14pm]

would you like to be more successful ?...

Mach said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

deceitful, greedy, and conniving

what do you think ?

Success is a personal thing

For me ~ Successful people are not deceitful, greedy or conniving

So, Yes

can you give me some examples of people who you believe are successful?.....

tinaz said:

My husband and I have done very well for ourselves and have never cheated, stole, or hurt anyone or done anything immoral to get where we are...

I do good because i dont like to see people hurting or sad.. Being good is just natural for me, its not something I have to decide on... Its just my personality...

This isnt saying im a goody two shoes who doesnt know how to have fun either... I just dont do anything that will hurt anyone else.. For example: If I get drunk, I pay for it with a hangover but im not hurting anyone else...

why ?

Ace said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

deceitful, greedy, and conniving

what do you think ?

That would depend on your definition of "successful".

I think Garry Shandling put it best, when he said, "Nice guys finish first. If you don't know that, then you don't know where the finish line is."

co-

shortnsweet said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

deceitful, greedy, and conniving

what do you think ?

I think that's the best way to be successful because that in itself is a success.

Just reread and this may be mistaken, just want to clarify not being deceitful, greedy and conniving is a great success. I think people that gain success that way lose it sooner or later. The karma effect

[Edited 10/3/10 15:27pm]

PicklesMcMillan said:

ZombieKitten said:

good question!

I offer this word also

nepotism

i dont kitten reality is proving other wise right now

why be a good person....

yeah, it never worked for me either, since I don't know anyone worth knowing!

PicklesMcMillan said:

Mach said:

Success is a personal thing

For me ~ Successful people are not deceitful, greedy or conniving

So, Yes

can you give me some examples of people who you believe are successful?.....

Do you mean public figures that you would know ?

I can give you a long list of personal friends / family that I KNOW enough about to put them on my list

Off the top of my head I really do not know anyone enough, in the public eye to say if they could be on my " Successful " list ~ They may seem successfull BUT they might live like scum ~ cheat steal whatever they may do that would NOT fit my ideal of successfull

ZombieKitten said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

i dont kitten reality is proving other wise right now

why be a good person....

yeah, it never worked for me either, since I don't know anyone worth knowing!

lol are u being facetious ?

Mach said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

can you give me some examples of people who you believe are successful?.....

Do you mean public figures that you would know ?

I can give you a long list of personal friends / family that I KNOW enough about to put them on my list

Off the top of my head I really do not know anyone enough, in the public eye to say if they could be on my " Successful " list ~ They may seem successfull BUT they might live like scum ~ cheat steal whatever they may do that would NOT fit my ideal of successfull

anyone you feel is successful that includes public figures, friends. family etc...

and could you tell me why you think they are successful

PicklesMcMillan said:

ZombieKitten said:

yeah, it never worked for me either, since I don't know anyone worth knowing!

lol are u being facetious ?

I am being self-deprecating.

I've never hanged with the right crowd but I knew some that did and business is booming for them. I couldn't stand them though, they were all wankers

A lot of my friends are very successful. Though they are not the smartest, They are neither greedy or deceitful, the thing they all have in common is their personality. Very approachable, honest and friendly.

My smartest friends from school, that lacked these qualities are not doing so well. The deceitful and greedy that are not locked in a prison or dead or a joined a Christian born again religion are doing ok too, but it's only transitional until they end up in a prison or dead or join a Christian born again religion.

ZombieKitten said:

PicklesMcMillan said:

lol are u being facetious ?

I am being self-deprecating.

I've never hanged with the right crowd but I knew some that did and business is booming for them. I couldn't stand them though, they were all wankers

im right there with you..

i was never very popular and never -in -the -know

i have a "friend" who is very pretty but very Smug Judgmental Stuck up with a capital S

so we all are walking in a clothing store and she gets pretty much gets hired on the spot by the manger and he was the one to come up to her and she complaining about trying to find job and the girl doesnt even take the job

shit like that makes me question my niceness and my looks lmao

[Edited 10/3/10 15:58pm]

[Edited 10/3/10 16:00pm]