Drug addicts are pussies, too. Let 'em off themselves if it's more important than family, friends and their own lives. They're just taking up space.

....where's that ointment!?

Cerebus said:

Drug addicts are pussies, too. Let 'em off themselves if it's more important than family, friends and their own lives. They're just taking up space.

....where's that ointment!?

I think this is the only emoticon in a tube.

johnart said:

Cerebus said:

Drug addicts are pussies, too. Let 'em off themselves if it's more important than family, friends and their own lives. They're just taking up space.

....where's that ointment!?

I think this is the only emoticon in a tube.

Hey! It's got a smiley face - might work. Man, I'm just tired of this entire world gone soft. Everybody has a problem or a hand out and I'm getting close to just being done with it. Gonna buy some land and go live in a damn cabin. The human race got to where it is because we believed we could do anything, even when we were told we couldn't. Now it seems like we can't do anything without a prescription and the permission of the masses. Everyone has something to complain about, but present them with a plan to try and change the status quo and watch them nervously crall back under their rocks for fear of loosing their cable tv and internet connection. *grumble*grumble* I tend get a bit Nietzsche about this kind of stuff. Let the weak fall aside so the strong can get on with it already. Of course, Friedrich went a bit batshit, too!

And clean your damn houses ya hoarders!

Also, I haven't had much sleep in the last week WHILE dealing with more than a few snivelling douche faces.

johnart said:

noimageatall said:

I am struggling with this issue right now. I watched this once and I was I have no patience for drug addicts either. As I am going to be a women's therapist, I know I will have to deal with some of these issues and I just don't know if I can be objective.

I can't even watch this how anymore. I screamed at the TV too and I want to strangle these people.

I guess part of my impatience comes from some situations on either side of our families (not hoarding, though not much less complicated) where I feel our family members have just enabled the folk in question to no end. There has to be a limit. Everyone with a "condition" is cuddled and babied to no end.

[Edited 9/6/10 20:49pm]

I think that's the attitude I will have. I will probably be more of a 'tough love' type of therapist.

johnart said:

SHOCKADELICA1 said:

That show is a trip and it pisses me off too sometimes. I'm like, just throw the shit away!! WTF!!

But, I know it's not that easy for them.

Now the animal hoarders.....that's just some nasty shit....I love animals too, but damn...

I completely get that it's a disorder and that it's not just mental but chemical. And i feel for them on that respect. I just don't know why it's not considered more of a disability and why they are given so much choice in some matters.

No, you can't go through every damn thing that's in the trash?
Why??
Cuz it's nasty and it makes you a nasty ass to do so. That's why.

I want my own show.

meanie!

p.s. i like u-u crack me the eff up

Being in a house of STUFFF!!! makes me angry, and seeing the preview makes me angry too.

I feel so closed in and can't think or function that way, glad I got rid of and am still getting rid of stuff,

just keeping a few key pieces.

Sold a loveseat just today...

<--"Currently downsizing/simplifying! Trying to be a minimalist!"

[Edited 9/7/10 3:21am]

sweet said:

johnart said:

I completely get that it's a disorder and that it's not just mental but chemical. And i feel for them on that respect. I just don't know why it's not considered more of a disability and why they are given so much choice in some matters.

No, you can't go through every damn thing that's in the trash?
Why??
Cuz it's nasty and it makes you a nasty ass to do so. That's why.

I want my own show.

meanie!

p.s. i like u-u crack me the eff up

aww thanks

wildgoldenhoney said:

Being in a house of STUFFF!!! makes me angry, and seeing the preview makes me angry too.

I feel so closed in and can't think or function that way, glad I got rid of and am still getting rid of stuff,

just keeping a few key pieces.

Sold a loveseat just today...

<--"Currently downsizing/simplifying! Trying to be a minimalist!"

[Edited 9/7/10 3:21am]

We've had a few moves over the past 5 or so years. It's made me really learn the joys of purging.

Our style has gone from having a lot to minimal and back to someplace in between (depending on our home or mood) but I've learned to welcome change and not put too much importance on "stuff".

We watch it all the time.

It makes me feel gross.

My father's place looks worse than some of those homes.

johnart said:

Mach said:

I watch that ( sometimes )

I am watching "Obsessed" right now

The animal Hoarders sometimes is for sure

Oh that's a whole other thing that gets me going. I'm sorry, if folk are finding flattened cats you forgot lived with you, you are either a criminal or need to be institutionalized or monitored.

Grey Gardens made me itch.

Cerebus said:

johnart said:

I think this is the only emoticon in a tube.

Hey! It's got a smiley face - might work. Man, I'm just tired of this entire world gone soft. Everybody has a problem or a hand out and I'm getting close to just being done with it. Gonna buy some land and go live in a damn cabin. The human race got to where it is because we believed we could do anything, even when we were told we couldn't. Now it seems like we can't do anything without a prescription and the permission of the masses. Everyone has something to complain about, but present them with a plan to try and change the status quo and watch them nervously crall back under their rocks for fear of loosing their cable tv and internet connection. *grumble*grumble* I tend get a bit Nietzsche about this kind of stuff. Let the weak fall aside so the strong can get on with it already. Of course, Friedrich went a bit batshit, too!

And clean your damn houses ya hoarders!

Also, I haven't had much sleep in the last week WHILE dealing with more than a few snivelling douche faces.

You do realize you're sounding like a...conservative?

johnart said:

Why do I even watch it? I just end up yelling at the tv screen and pissed off every time.

Why are these nasty ass people (yes I know it's insensitive of me and that this is a disorder) not forced to live in some sort of monitored group home situation? Especially when kids are involved.

Lawd and then they always gotta start up with it being everybody else's problem.

[Edited 9/6/10 20:34pm]

Dear johnart this is me you are talking about and I wish I had a way to sit down with you.

First, let me tell you I sought out help BECAUSE I had a daughter and felt it was WRONG to have her live like this and she was removed from my home.

I can't really write about this too long because it makes me suicidal to talk about it, seriously.

I can thank my daughter for being alive because I won't kill myself as long as she is alive.

it is extremely painful to fight this day in and day out and still have a messy house.

I have begged for help and cried and cried,

I just started getting a visiting nurses association to see if they can help me.

I have worked with a therapist (different ones) for over 5 years and they have no clue.

The only way it has ever gotten clean is for me to step out of the house, pay someone to come in and throw away stuff as they see fit, i do NOT look in the trashbags to see what they have thrown away.

I do not have $$$$ to pay for someone to do this right now or I would do it. All DCF did when they took my daughter away was to tell me "clean it' they did not provide services.

I would agree to have my legs amputated in exchange for never having this problem again. This problem has been EXCRUTIATINGLY painful to me for the past five years expecially. After a long day where I think I have been cleaning, only for the house to still be dirty I feel like I could really hang myself if I wasn't a mother. Truth.

The show has actually helped me deal with my own father, who is a hoarder, but not to extent of those on the show.

However, because I could easily see him getting to that extent, it's hard for me to watch the show.

As for why aren't they made to live in care facilities, the answer to how to help those who are truly mentally ill is very complex. Many that are homeless today are homeless due to mental illness. Do we force them to live in care facilities? Who would care for them? Who would pay for it?

Nothinbutjoy said:

The show has actually helped me deal with my own father, who is a hoarder, but not to extent of those on the show.

However, because I could easily see him getting to that extent, it's hard for me to watch the show.

As for why aren't they made to live in care facilities, the answer to how to help those who are truly mentally ill is very complex. Many that are homeless today are homeless due to mental illness. Do we force them to live in care facilities? Who would care for them? Who would pay for it?

Back in the day, most people with the kind of mental illness that would render them homeless did live in care facilities. But a Supreme Court decision in the 1970s ruled that it was unconstitutional to involuntarily and indefinitely commit people who are not an imminent danger and who have at least a minimal ability to care for themselves. That forced the states to change their involuntary commitment laws.

Deadflow3r said:

johnart said:

Why do I even watch it? I just end up yelling at the tv screen and pissed off every time.

Why are these nasty ass people (yes I know it's insensitive of me and that this is a disorder) not forced to live in some sort of monitored group home situation? Especially when kids are involved.

Lawd and then they always gotta start up with it being everybody else's problem.

[Edited 9/6/10 20:34pm]

Dear johnart this is me you are talking about and I wish I had a way to sit down with you.

First, let me tell you I sought out help BECAUSE I had a daughter and felt it was WRONG to have her live like this and she was removed from my home.

I can't really write about this too long because it makes me suicidal to talk about it, seriously.

I can thank my daughter for being alive because I won't kill myself as long as she is alive.

it is extremely painful to fight this day in and day out and still have a messy house.

I have begged for help and cried and cried,

I just started getting a visiting nurses association to see if they can help me.

I have worked with a therapist (different ones) for over 5 years and they have no clue.

The only way it has ever gotten clean is for me to step out of the house, pay someone to come in and throw away stuff as they see fit, i do NOT look in the trashbags to see what they have thrown away.

I do not have $$$$ to pay for someone to do this right now or I would do it. All DCF did when they took my daughter away was to tell me "clean it' they did not provide services.

I would agree to have my legs amputated in exchange for never having this problem again. This problem has been EXCRUTIATINGLY painful to me for the past five years expecially. After a long day where I think I have been cleaning, only for the house to still be dirty I feel like I could really hang myself if I wasn't a mother. Truth.

I'm sorry to hear about this Deadflow3r.

The bolded parts are exactly what I'm referring to. I don't understand why this is not dealt with in a more serious and strict manner. I understand removing a child due to hazardous conditions, I don't understand how simply doing so and calling that a "solution" works. I admire that you have the desire to change and that are seeking out ways of doing so. I also admire you sharing your story with us...I'm sure it's not at all an easy thing to do.

Don't ever think suicide is a solution. It will not help your daughter.

My mom (who keeps the tidiest house I know and has no problem throwing out anything that she can physically lift) is fascinated with that show and keeps trying to get me to watch. She's also fascinated with the story of the Collyer brothers and thinks it's cool that I live close to where they used to live.

Nonetheless, I refuse to watch. That show would drive me effing crazy and I'd probably end up smashing my TV.

Genesia said:

Nothinbutjoy said:

The show has actually helped me deal with my own father, who is a hoarder, but not to extent of those on the show.

However, because I could easily see him getting to that extent, it's hard for me to watch the show.

As for why aren't they made to live in care facilities, the answer to how to help those who are truly mentally ill is very complex. Many that are homeless today are homeless due to mental illness. Do we force them to live in care facilities? Who would care for them? Who would pay for it?

Back in the day, most people with the kind of mental illness that would render them homeless did live in care facilities. But a Supreme Court decision in the 1970s ruled that it was unconstitutional to involuntarily and indefinitely commit people who are not an imminent danger and who have at least a minimal ability to care for themselves. That forced the states to change their involuntary commitment laws.

As far as the Who would pay for it? question goes, it would probably be less costly to institute some sort of system. I can't rattle it off off the top of my head, but I remember them itemizing one of the cases on one of the episodes, and by the time you added police, ambulances, social services, legal stuff and so on...1 hoarder was costing the state thousands and thousands of dollars, even though they had the attitude of "it's no one's business but my own".

There is a member of our family who has never reached the extent of the folk on the show, but I could totally see them getting there. There are kids involved and the family always swoops in to take care of things but my issue is this...what is the incentive for this family member to do anything differently? It's not just about mess, their behavior extends to many other areas (bills, utilities, work, or rather not-working...).

Where is the line? Everyone's reasoning is "it's not the kids' fault" (which of course it isn't and I don't want any child to suffer), but it just enables them to keep on keepin on with living as they wish without much care for responsibilities.

OKay first: Gavin and Gaye - that is the weirdest family I've ever seen. The sister and brother are going to end up fucking each other, just watch. They're near 40 and living at home? They're NEVER GOING TO LEAVE. While I can understand the father's statement of the state coming in and telling him how to live his life, he needs to understand the health risks, the neighborhood home values going up or down (dude - you've got grass growing on your roof!). He had a lot of pride, as the therapist said, and was very protective of his family. But there has to be a line. When your gunty wife is scooping cat litter out of a chair with her hands THERE'S A PROBLEM. I felt really bad for the cats. That is what angers me the most. I'm not surprised that the family refused all after care and therapy offers, but I'm sure they're proud sitting up in a rented apartment w/ four cats, while their house has been condemned by the state. Repairing it? Yeah, I think not. It'll never happen.

Sir Patrick: John, this is you in another 25 years. Just sayin'.

Adella in Edmond, OK: There's a whole lot of hurt and anger going on there, and I always find the older people tend to be more simplistic in their thinking, and can't ever really connect the hurt in their lives to the stuff they collect.

Keri and Terry: She needs to be slapped. She's an emotional 7 year old. She gets tense and she bolts EVERY SINGLE TIME. I felt bad for the father, and the kids. The woman was just selfish and juvenile in her thinking. I'm glad they got head long into cleaning and made the best of it.

ernestsewell said:

OKay first: Gavin and Gaye - that is the weirdest family I've ever seen. The sister and brother are going to end up fucking each other, just watch. They're near 40 and living at home? They're NEVER GOING TO LEAVE. While I can understand the father's statement of the state coming in and telling him how to live his life, he needs to understand the health risks, the neighborhood home values going up or down (dude - you've got grass growing on your roof!). He had a lot of pride, as the therapist said, and was very protective of his family. But there has to be a line. When your gunty wife is scooping cat litter out of a chair with her hands THERE'S A PROBLEM. I felt really bad for the cats. That is what angers me the most. I'm not surprised that the family refused all after care and therapy offers, but I'm sure they're proud sitting up in a rented apartment w/ four cats, while their house has been condemned by the state. Repairing it? Yeah, I think not. It'll never happen.

Sir Patrick: John, this is you in another 25 years. Just sayin'.

Adella in Edmond, OK: There's a whole lot of hurt and anger going on there, and I always find the older people tend to be more simplistic in their thinking, and can't ever really connect the hurt in their lives to the stuff they collect.

Keri and Terry: She needs to be slapped. She's an emotional 7 year old. She gets tense and she bolts EVERY SINGLE TIME. I felt bad for the father, and the kids. The woman was just selfish and juvenile in her thinking. I'm glad they got head long into cleaning and made the best of it.

Ernest, fuck you. You know this is you now. Don't even play. I will never catch up.

I thought the same about Gavin and Gaye. Those two are not "right" and I fear it's totaly enviromental (from having only lived in that enviroment with parents (especially mom) who seem completely controlling and lost in their delusions vs. a chemical/mental ocurrance.

johnart said:

Why do I even watch it? I just end up yelling at the tv screen and pissed off every time.

Why are these nasty ass people (yes I know it's insensitive of me and that this is a disorder) not forced to live in some sort of monitored group home situation? Especially when kids are involved.

Lawd and then they always gotta start up with it being everybody else's problem.

[Edited 9/6/10 20:34pm]

there's a SHOW about this?

XxAxX said:

johnart said:

Why do I even watch it? I just end up yelling at the tv screen and pissed off every time.

Why are these nasty ass people (yes I know it's insensitive of me and that this is a disorder) not forced to live in some sort of monitored group home situation? Especially when kids are involved.

Lawd and then they always gotta start up with it being everybody else's problem.

[Edited 9/6/10 20:34pm]

there's a SHOW about this?

http://www.aetv.com/hoarders/index.jsp

johnart said:

XxAxX said:

there's a SHOW about this?

http://www.aetv.com/hoarders/index.jsp

Genesia said:

Nothinbutjoy said:

The show has actually helped me deal with my own father, who is a hoarder, but not to extent of those on the show.

However, because I could easily see him getting to that extent, it's hard for me to watch the show.

As for why aren't they made to live in care facilities, the answer to how to help those who are truly mentally ill is very complex. Many that are homeless today are homeless due to mental illness. Do we force them to live in care facilities? Who would care for them? Who would pay for it?

Back in the day, most people with the kind of mental illness that would render them homeless did live in care facilities. But a Supreme Court decision in the 1970s ruled that it was unconstitutional to involuntarily and indefinitely commit people who are not an imminent danger and who have at least a minimal ability to care for themselves. That forced the states to change their involuntary commitment laws.

Yep

It is a complex problem.

johnart said:

Genesia said:

Back in the day, most people with the kind of mental illness that would render them homeless did live in care facilities. But a Supreme Court decision in the 1970s ruled that it was unconstitutional to involuntarily and indefinitely commit people who are not an imminent danger and who have at least a minimal ability to care for themselves. That forced the states to change their involuntary commitment laws.

As far as the Who would pay for it? question goes, it would probably be less costly to institute some sort of system. I can't rattle it off off the top of my head, but I remember them itemizing one of the cases on one of the episodes, and by the time you added police, ambulances, social services, legal stuff and so on...1 hoarder was costing the state thousands and thousands of dollars, even though they had the attitude of "it's no one's business but my own".

Anytime there is "a system" there is room for abuse in that system. People that do not need to be in a system end up in it for convenience-sake. Those that would really benefit from such a system could be abused by monsters that worm their way into the system for the easy targets.

Look at the Foster Care system today. How many children are shattered by that system, or neglected, compared to those that thrive?

It's a complex problem and I keep saying that, but one of the main issues is that it is such a HUGE issue (both helping the mentally ill and helping children in the Foster Care system) that it is near impossible to monitor.

One key is to start local. Starting with the needs of one's own community and then branching out.

Am I crazy for laughing at most of these folks.

They are just Ridiculous with their hoarding and ocd/obsessions....

Nothinbutjoy said:

johnart said:

As far as the Who would pay for it? question goes, it would probably be less costly to institute some sort of system. I can't rattle it off off the top of my head, but I remember them itemizing one of the cases on one of the episodes, and by the time you added police, ambulances, social services, legal stuff and so on...1 hoarder was costing the state thousands and thousands of dollars, even though they had the attitude of "it's no one's business but my own".

Anytime there is "a system" there is room for abuse in that system. People that do not need to be in a system end up in it for convenience-sake. Those that would really benefit from such a system could be abused by monsters that worm their way into the system for the easy targets.

Look at the Foster Care system today. How many children are shattered by that system, or neglected, compared to those that thrive?

It's a complex problem and I keep saying that, but one of the main issues is that it is such a HUGE issue (both helping the mentally ill and helping children in the Foster Care system) that it is near impossible to monitor.

One key is to start local. Starting with the needs of one's own community and then branching out.

We will always have government, which is a system. So whether we have different systems instituted to deal with different issues or not, there will always be room for abuse of some kind (of that system and of those in it).

I rather take the chance that some abuse it and work on fixing it, than not have anything in place at all.

You mention the foster care system (which I know first hand needs VAST improvement). What would the alternative be to having none in place? Maybe the answer is not to be rid of the system, but that more folk who might genuinely care become involved in it. Many (myself included) are quick to disect a problem or point it out, but often hesitate to be involved and become a part of the solution.

I like your point about starting local.

[Edited 9/7/10 11:20am]

johnart said:

Nothinbutjoy said:

Anytime there is "a system" there is room for abuse in that system. People that do not need to be in a system end up in it for convenience-sake. Those that would really benefit from such a system could be abused by monsters that worm their way into the system for the easy targets.

Look at the Foster Care system today. How many children are shattered by that system, or neglected, compared to those that thrive?

It's a complex problem and I keep saying that, but one of the main issues is that it is such a HUGE issue (both helping the mentally ill and helping children in the Foster Care system) that it is near impossible to monitor.

One key is to start local. Starting with the needs of one's own community and then branching out.

We will always have government, which is a system. So whether we have different systems instituted to deal with different issues or not, there will always be room for abuse of some kind (of that system and of those in it).

I rather take the chance that some abuse it and work on fixing it, than not have anything in place at all.

You mention the foster care system (which I know first hand needs VAST improvement). What would the alternative be to having none in place? Maybe the answer is not to be rid of the system, but that more folk who might genuinely care become involved in it. Many (myself included) are quick to disect a problem or point it out, but often hesitate to be involved and become a part of the solution.

I like your point about starting local.

[Edited 9/7/10 11:20am]

Yeah, I don't like to just sit there and point out problems without looking for solutions.

With the problem being so complex, not having a system, obviously, isn't (wouldn't) working.

I think so many people choose not to work in the profession because for the tremedously hard work they do they get paid so little to do it, the work is neverending and the workers are underappreciated for what they do. It's a vicious cycle.

Genesia said:

Cerebus said:

Hey! It's got a smiley face - might work. Man, I'm just tired of this entire world gone soft. Everybody has a problem or a hand out and I'm getting close to just being done with it. Gonna buy some land and go live in a damn cabin. The human race got to where it is because we believed we could do anything, even when we were told we couldn't. Now it seems like we can't do anything without a prescription and the permission of the masses. Everyone has something to complain about, but present them with a plan to try and change the status quo and watch them nervously crall back under their rocks for fear of loosing their cable tv and internet connection. *grumble*grumble* I tend get a bit Nietzsche about this kind of stuff. Let the weak fall aside so the strong can get on with it already. Of course, Friedrich went a bit batshit, too!

And clean your damn houses ya hoarders!

Also, I haven't had much sleep in the last week WHILE dealing with more than a few snivelling douche faces.

You do realize you're sounding like a...conservative?

....shhhh! I actually recall discussing with you at one time that I fall to both sides, depending on the issue. I'm definitely a liberal, but I reserve the right to vote however the hell I want. I've always been that way. I refuse to blindly follow any single political point of view. History has proven that doesn't really work so well. I'm actually really vocal about the two party system not working. Have been for a long time. I believe one of the things that needs to change right now is allowing voters to choose amongst all candidates during pimaries, not just those of their registered party.

Also, a lot of our serious arguments .... were about other parts of the great equation of life. I just deleted about 1000 words. I will say that my views regarding the course of action to be taken on some issues has definitely changed. But my opinion regarding the cause of those issues has not. I'm gonna leave it at that. For now, anyway. Oh... and I still love soy beans!

John... I still need more sleep. ... siiiigh...