LaVisHh said:

A lot of things aggravate me but I don't let it get to me. I understand that many people are unable to use proper grammar and such and I don't try to correct them, as that is quite rude. Some people could be dyslexic and misspell words that they really know how to spell or make other mistakes without being illiterate.

I just try to refrain from judging people's intelligence until they show their inability to discuss issues intelligently and demonstrate an inability to make salient points or argue their position logically.

A person can exhibit poor grammar and English skills but still be very intelligent and have internally-consistent arguments that are well thought-out and logical.

IceNine said:

I totally agree with you that persons with high IQs are not good talkers. I'm a Mensa-member and I would even go as far a saying it's a majority of us.

However. I don't know much about GWBs IQ. When seeing him live and uncut like yesterday he does not come across as being very smart.

Maybe he is sounding insecure because he sometimes knows the words but not what they really mean.

We both may agree that given the education he had (MBA etc.) we might expect a little more knowledge.

We also may agree that he has not yet proofen in any way to have a lot of intellectual skills. Intellectual skills on the other hand are part of an IQ.

Again, I agree with you that persons with high IQs are not good talkers (and I'm a living example). But GWB is an unsuitable subject for that theory.

IceNine said:

Translation?

Just kidding. My English Professor pointed out that what bugs him the most are published works, or those in journalism. He doesn't dwell on it, as you pointed out, but he says for some, there is no excuse.

I have found it difficult in my life to separate the way I speak, from the way I write. The English method of grammer differs from those of other nations.

I grew up around many different ethnic backgrounds, from Hawaiian to Chinese, and it's always been hard for me structure my sentences properly.

I've battled this for so many years, I've begun to accept it, I'm afraid.

Do you think that it is possible for someone to be an extremely well spoken individual but not intelligent??...

sure

stephen

hawkins

wellbeyond said:

I believe so.

I have met many who can talk a good talk.

LaVisHh said:

Wouldn't it, though, be somewhat necessary to have intelligence in order to both have and use an expansive vocabulary to it's full advantage??...

wellbeyond said:

I really do not think you need an expansive vocabulary to be well spoken.

If you are referring to someone addressing a vast audience, then yes. As a person addressing his/her peers, no.

LaVisHh said:

True, you're right...I guess I defined "well spoken" as being able to always express thoughts and views in intelligent and understandable (and grammatically correct..lol) ways...so in that sense, the larger your vocabulary, and the better you're able to master it, the more well spoken you'll come across...

wellbeyond said:

It would if you speak to an equal educated audience.

The 'everyday Joe' calls a well spoken individual one that he understands. This may include intelligence but it may as well be a socially skilled person.

Bush is a good example. He can talk so people understand and believe him but he certainly is less intelligent that Gore who is intelligent but not as much a talker as Bush and therefore is looked at as a smartass by general public.

ajd said:

Good point..!!

wellbeyond said:

Agreed.

I always try to look at things from the middle.

I have seen many ways to present ideas, and frankly sometimes the point is made better by those who are direct, and do not hide behind what is considered impressively long words, and/or phrases which, to me, might even confuse the point they are trying to make even more.

LaVisHh said:

Again, you're sooo right..!!...lol...I hate the use of "college words" by some folks simply because they wanna sound more "intelligent"...real intelligence is knowing which words are best to use to get your point across, and not simply to show off your vocabulary skills...

wellbeyond said:

gives wellbeyond a firm handshake

LaVisHh said:

<---hand shake...

What about all those extremely intelligent people who are too drunk to speak?

Yes, it is possible for someone to be intelligent and not well spoken. I have aunts and uncles that are very well educated and possess many degrees, and yet speak ebonics. They'll say things like "I love me some of dat Marvin Gaye music" "He be driving dem cars fast" "Pass me some of dem greens behind da cornbread" My uncle is extremely intelligent, and he don't speak articulate at all, and the funny thing is that he have Degrees in English and he taught English. LOL, he can teach it, but can't speak it. I think it is actually common for someone to be intelligent but not well spoken.
[This message was edited Wed Jan 29 11:21:17 PST 2003 by AbucahX]

shausler said:

now thats funny

IceNine said:

Good questions lately icenine. yes, i feel definately one can have a high IQ & still stumble through speeches and public presentations. i know many ppl like this. i myself am very scared of public speaking, especially free style, if i write down my presentation, and can read off my notes, its easier. thoughts flow better. if i need to just talk, or lecture with no notes, then it involves much more concentration, and organization of my mind so subjects come forth in a flowing manner, using the proper words. but, this is all in consideration of ones level of stress and how nervous they r speaking in public, not ones intelligence.

IceNine said:

Is it hedwig ?

AlfofMelmak said:

I made that avatar from a picture that I got for giving money to some animal group... I scanned it a long time ago and used it as a desktop picture on my Mac.

This is an excellent thread - the original question and the many interesting and enlightening responses from people. It's been a pleasure reading these comments.

Yes, I know people who are very intelligent who don't do well in public speaking or maybe even small group speaking. Also very intelligent thinkers who aren't the best at spelling. None of us is perfect. Everyone has their strong points and not-so-strong points. Also the post about how medication effects a person makes a lot of sense. It's great we can talk about and consider things like this so we can learn to be more compassionate to people - give people the benefit of the doubt.

You brought this back to mock me didn't you? I SAID i was only joking when i refered to you as a "donkey"

I'm very smart, as far as reasoning ability, but I have a very poor memory. As a result, my vocabulary isn't as extensive as it ought to be considering how much I read. I'm not particularly well spoken.

So yes.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

Yes, I think it's very true that very intelligent people are quite likely to have communication problems, especially with large groups.

The closer you are to average intelligence, the easier you find it to 'connect' on a social level with others. It's a bit like 'being on the same wavelength'.

The further away from average intelligence you are, be that higher or lower, the more difficult it is to 'connect' with others. It is very common for highly intelligent people to be lacking a certain finess with social skills, especially when it comes to public speaking. It is also very common for them to feel a certain 'alienation' from the majority.

IceNine said:

Absolutely. I see this in my profession--some lawyers are better written advocates, whereas others are better oral advocates.

While I can do (and have done) oral arguments acceptably (even got an "A" in law school when I had to argue a mock appellate brief before a panel of three "judges"--really a professor, a lawyer, and a judge from the Indiana Court of Appeals), I believe that I'm a better writer than I am a speaker. With writing, I have the opportunity to rewrite, revise, and fine-tune my work as needed. But oral advocacy is "live," and even with the best preparation, a judge (or opposing counsel) might throw you a curve ball that forces you to "wing it."

BorisFishpaw said:

True story... you will never believe this:

I have a VERY hard time connecting with people and I am REALLY shitty at making small-talk and such. Social situations are sometimes extremely painful for me, as I cannot stand the banality of the conversations, nor can I even begin to comprehend the things that most people like. I feel like an alien at most times.

True story...

I've noticed that intelligent and creative people fail in most social settings, and not well spoken most of the times. Sometimes it seems like they are in their own little world.

I made all A's throughout school, but I don't think that i'm intelligent by any means. I can relate to what Tackam stated in a earlier post, I've read volumes of books but my vocabulary isn't extensive as it should be. I can be well spoken when I want to be, but most of the time I'd rather cut it short and be direct with people.

IceNine said:

That does not surprise me...
I also have a hard time connecting with people in general. From a very early age I felt like I'd been dropped here from another planet. Like Morpheus said in The Matrix; "What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad". I also find large social gatherings very difficult, and I'd rather have root-canal work done with no anaesthetic than speak in public.