Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

You mean incomplete G.O.A.T.!

Yes, Wilt is THE only player ever to score 100 points in a game. Wilt's mad skills were the main reasons why the NBA had to created new rules.

HOWEVER.........

Despite all of that "greatness", Wilt's championship stats are not as great as it should've been.

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Michael's 6 rings

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Kareen's 6 rings

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Kobe's 5 rings (and counting)

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Shaq's 4 rings (and counting)

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Magic's 5 rings

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Larry's 3 rings

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Bill's 11 rings

Wilt's 2 rings VS. Tim's 3 rings

As for gold metals, Michael, Magic, Larry, Shaq, & Kobe have 1 each. Wilt has 0.

So based upon THESE^ amazing stats alone, I find down right impossible to believe that Wilt was ever greater than Michael. Bill being greater than Michael? Yes! Kareen being greater than Michael? Maybe! Wilt being greater than Michael?

F*** No!!!!

[img:$uid]http://witchesbrewonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Negro-Please.jpg[/img:$uid]

Wilt paved the way for someone like Michael to flip his tongue out.

CORRECTION: Julius "Dr. J" Erving paved the way for Michael Jordan.

Timmy84 said:

Plus Wilt being one of the first black players in the NBA it was real tough for him to deal with racism in that time. Of course Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as Jordan because they wouldn't allow it. After the success of Wilt and Bill and 'em it made it easier for Jordan to come in and reap the benefits neither of them got. It's a generational thing with Wilt and MJ.

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

[img:$uid]http://witchesbrewonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Negro-Please.jpg[/img:$uid]

Wilt paved the way for someone like Michael to flip his tongue out.

CORRECTION: Julius "Dr. J" Erving paved the way for Michael Jordan.

Hahaha I stand corrected then.

But yeah that's the original "high-flyer".

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

[img:$uid]http://witchesbrewonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Negro-Please.jpg[/img:$uid]

Wilt paved the way for someone like Michael to flip his tongue out.

CORRECTION: Julius "Dr. J" Erving paved the way for Michael Jordan.

Don't forget 'Connie 'the Hawk' Hawkins.

uPtoWnNY said:

Timmy84 said:

Plus Wilt being one of the first black players in the NBA it was real tough for him to deal with racism in that time. Of course Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as Jordan because they wouldn't allow it. After the success of Wilt and Bill and 'em it made it easier for Jordan to come in and reap the benefits neither of them got. It's a generational thing with Wilt and MJ.

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

You know what was amazing going back to when Wilt scored those 100 points in '62, the three-point line wasn't even institutionalized yet. Both MJ (and Kobe later on) had the help of three-point lines in their famous biggest shooting games and Kobe had like 81 to MJ's 63.

I think the most MJ scored in a regular season game was 69. I think also the modern NBA is more about who can shoot rather than who can defend or who can get rebounds and stuff. I liked how Tim did his game (compared to David Robinson).

The modern NBA is a result of what Jordan was in '84... a high-flyer and a shooter who didn't have a good team behind him. Truth is if certain things hadn't changed for Jordan in '88 we wouldn't be sitting here debating about Jordan. He would've went out faster than the Nike commercial he did in '86...WITH SPIKE!

*yawns*

[img:$uid]http://www.goodlogo.com/images/logos/air_jordan_logo_2672.gif[/img:$uid]

Oh what a shock, a famous person is actually an asshole!

Oh, what a revelation! Oh, the horror!

Now you can't touch wing players. Imagine how dangerous Oscar, West, Jordan, Dr. J, David Thompson, Iceman Gervin, Bird or Reggie Miller would be in today's NBA?

uPtoWnNY said:

Now you can't touch wing players. Imagine how dangerous Oscar, West, Jordan, Dr. J, David Thompson, Iceman Gervin, Bird or Reggie Miller would be in today's NBA?

That's a dangerous thought indeed.

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Michael backed Bill Bradley in 2000 & Barack Obama in 2008 for president. Both candidates are Democrats.

He didn't back the Democrat in HIS HOME STATE.

You know about Harvey Gantt, right? NORTH CAROLINA, Tony.

See the only reason he decided to vote Democratic AFTER that because he was accused of being an Uncle Tom and a traitor by some blacks.

Can't say I blame them in that regard. He may not be a politician but if he thought his politics wouldn't matter in the entertainment/sports field, he was sadly mistaken.

[Edited 8/21/10 11:37am]

[Edited 8/21/10 11:41am]

Oh good flipping grief, if Michael Jordan was NOT bother to get involve in politics (regardless if we the fans agree with his reasons OR not), then that was his freedom of choice. Not every black athlete can be a Jim Brown and get away with it.

Remember Michael's old teammate Craig Hodges? He was very politically outspoken in a Jim Brown sort-of way. Those strengths also got him fired by the Chicago Bulls after Craig's fallout with then-U.S. President George H. W. Bush. Craig would NEVER find a job in the NBA ever again.

Why? Because every NBA team owner is a register member of the Republican Party, as well as most of the white NBA fanbase. And Michael knew these FACTS all too well and that is why he felt it was a smart idea to not be too vocal about his own political views while he was still the media darling in pro basketball. Even today, Michael is THE first & only NBA team owner that is NOT a GOP member.

Timmy84 said:

TonyVanDam said:

Basketball & (American) Football are NOT the same kind of sports. And also, the key word is "greatest" NOT "best".

Not only is Michael Jordan the greatest non-center basketball player of all-time, but he also lived up to his potentials way better than a center like Wilt Chamberlain ever did. Think about it. Will alll of the natural abilities Wilt had back in the days, he should've won 7 championship rings, NOT just 2 rings.

Well when you're about 6'11 and your biggest rival is the LEGENDARY BILL RUSSELL, you deal with what you have to deal with.

Plus Jordan was heading down the same road LeBron James is at now if Chicago hadn't put him with Scottie Pippen and the like. He may have been the best/greatest point guard in NBA history but he couldn't have done it on his own. Hell I say Pippen AND Rodman and John Paxson helped him with those championships he did won.

Without teamwork, Michael wouldn't be bragging about being the G.O.A.T. It wasn't like he was Ali, not trying to compare the two but let's compare being in a sport where it requires teamwork to one where you're all by your damn self fighting off another man.

In that case, boxing > basketball.

[Edited 8/21/10 11:49am]

Wilt was actually 7' 1". Bill was 6' 10".

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

Well when you're about 6'11 and your biggest rival is the LEGENDARY BILL RUSSELL, you deal with what you have to deal with.

Plus Jordan was heading down the same road LeBron James is at now if Chicago hadn't put him with Scottie Pippen and the like. He may have been the best/greatest point guard in NBA history but he couldn't have done it on his own. Hell I say Pippen AND Rodman and John Paxson helped him with those championships he did won.

Without teamwork, Michael wouldn't be bragging about being the G.O.A.T. It wasn't like he was Ali, not trying to compare the two but let's compare being in a sport where it requires teamwork to one where you're all by your damn self fighting off another man.

In that case, boxing > basketball.

[Edited 8/21/10 11:49am]

Wilt was actually 7' 1". Bill was 6' 10".

Still they were two tough men. They were the Magic vs. Bird of their time.

uPtoWnNY said:

Timmy84 said:

Plus Wilt being one of the first black players in the NBA it was real tough for him to deal with racism in that time. Of course Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as Jordan because they wouldn't allow it. After the success of Wilt and Bill and 'em it made it easier for Jordan to come in and reap the benefits neither of them got. It's a generational thing with Wilt and MJ.

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

TonyVanDam said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

There is no debate. Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, no matter how many rings he gets. He's not on Jordan's level as a player. It's like Jim Brown - no matter how many cats pass him in rushing yardage, they'll never be a back like him. Emmitt Smith is great, no doubt, but he's not on Jim Brown's level.

TonyVanDam said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

There is no debate. Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, no matter how many rings he gets. He's not on Jordan's level as a player. It's like Jim Brown - no matter how many cats pass him in rushing yardage, they'll never be a back like him. Emmitt Smith is great, no doubt, but he's not on Jim Brown's level.

TonyVanDam said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Shit, Wilt got hammered on a nightly basis, and sometimes the damn refs let it go! It was insane the crap Wilt had to deal with. No matter what he did, it wasn't good enough. And I get ticked off with the Jordan stans(at other sites) who pump up MJ at Wilt's expense.

I've always felt the old-skool cats(Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc.) were better basketball players than the cats of the modern NBA. They had better skills and better knowledge of the game. That's why I like Duncan so much - dude's a throwback.

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

Lol.....it will never be a point of contention. Jordan and will always be better than Kobe. Period.

I can't get into the Wilt thing because his competition was pretty weak.

uPtoWnNY said:

TonyVanDam said:

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

There is no debate. Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, no matter how many rings he gets. He's not on Jordan's level as a player. It's like Jim Brown - no matter how many cats pass him in rushing yardage, they'll never be a back like him. Emmitt Smith is great, no doubt, but he's not on Jim Brown's level.

Exactly. That's why Michael will always rank higher than Kobe. I think if MJ has anything over Wilt it's because he was able to stand up to competition when they thought they had sacked him. Of course Wilt being as tall as he was it was not easy to defend him as it was Jordan. That's what I think MJ had over Wilt.

Let's see did Jordan every have a 'center"?

NO.

The End.

TD3 said:

Let's see did Jordan every have a 'center"?

NO.

The End.

Maybe I'm just having a brain fart here but...

Do you care to expound on that?

TD3 said:

Let's see did Jordan every have a 'center"?

NO.

The End.

Bill Fartwright.

He was legit when he played with the Knicks but his game had deteriorated

some when he got to the Bulls.

TonyVanDam said:

phunkdaddy said:

So based on your theory of Wilt not being better than Michael based on championship rings

then you're saying Dan Marino is less than Mark Rypien and Trent Dilfer(two quick footnote

SB winning qb's). I'm not saying one is better than the other(MJ and Wilt)but the number of

rings doesn't always count when comparing one player to another. The fact that Mario Elle

has 2 championship rings doesn't make him a better player than Adrian Dantley was.

Basketball & (American) Football are NOT the same kind of sports. And also, the key word is "greatest" NOT "best".

Not only is Michael Jordan the greatest non-center basketball player of all-time, but he also lived up to his potentials way better than a center like Wilt Chamberlain ever did. Think about it. Will alll of the natural abilities Wilt had back in the days, he should've won 7 championship rings, NOT just 2 rings.

So the fact that he only won 2 rings diminshes his accomplishments and his stake

as possibly being the best player ever. There's a lot of great players that should

have won a ring but it doesn't always turn out that way.

phunkdaddy said:

TD3 said:

Let's see did Jordan every have a 'center"?

NO.

The End.

Bill Fartwright.

He was legit when he played with the Knicks but his game had deteriorated

some when he got to the Bulls.

Don't 4get Luc Longly and Will Purdue. Both Scrubs 2 the max.

^^ Ah I got it now. I just watched a documentary on MJ, one guy said Bill confronted him once after a game and said if Michael ever belittle him again that he would "break his legs".

uPtoWnNY said:

TonyVanDam said:

The Michael VS. Kobe debates will be far worse than the Michael VS. Wilt debates in due time. Kobe is just 2 rings away from suppasing Michael, and members of both fanbases will NOT let anything slide!

There is no debate. Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, no matter how many rings he gets. He's not on Jordan's level as a player. It's like Jim Brown - no matter how many cats pass him in rushing yardage, they'll never be a back like him. Emmitt Smith is great, no doubt, but he's not on Jim Brown's level.

See, now you trippin'. To sit there and say that Kobe isn't on MJ's level is pure hateration of Kobe. Kobe IS on MJ's level, simply because he can do everything MJ can do and has done it vs better swingmen than MJ did for a large portion of his career. And Barry Sanders is above Jim Brown.

phunkdaddy said:

TD3 said:

Let's see did Jordan every have a 'center"?

NO.

The End.

Bill Fartwright.

He was legit when he played with the Knicks but his game had deteriorated

some when he got to the Bulls.

Then again, MJ never faced a great center in the NBA Finals. Ever.

RebirthOfCool said:

uPtoWnNY said:

There is no debate. Kobe will never be as great as Jordan, no matter how many rings he gets. He's not on Jordan's level as a player. It's like Jim Brown - no matter how many cats pass him in rushing yardage, they'll never be a back like him. Emmitt Smith is great, no doubt, but he's not on Jim Brown's level.

See, now you trippin'. To sit there and say that Kobe isn't on MJ's level is pure hateration of Kobe. Kobe IS on MJ's level, simply because he can do everything MJ can do and has done it vs better swingmen than MJ did for a large portion of his career. And Barry Sanders is above Jim Brown.

Kobe has impressed me the last couple of years, ain't even gonna lie about that.

Timmy84 said:

RebirthOfCool said:

See, now you trippin'. To sit there and say that Kobe isn't on MJ's level is pure hateration of Kobe. Kobe IS on MJ's level, simply because he can do everything MJ can do and has done it vs better swingmen than MJ did for a large portion of his career. And Barry Sanders is above Jim Brown.

Kobe has impressed me the last couple of years, ain't even gonna lie about that.

People are so sprung on MJ that they refuse to see what's happening right in front of their eyes. Kobe is a muthafuckin' beast, but there are some that hate on him so much and/or don't want MJ's legacy to be fucked with that they refuse to give him his much-deserved propers. But then again, Kobe never waited to be given his props, he just takes it. 81 points, anyone?

Timmy84 said:

RebirthOfCool said:

See, now you trippin'. To sit there and say that Kobe isn't on MJ's level is pure hateration of Kobe. Kobe IS on MJ's level, simply because he can do everything MJ can do and has done it vs better swingmen than MJ did for a large portion of his career. And Barry Sanders is above Jim Brown.

Kobe has impressed me the last couple of years, ain't even gonna lie about that.

Kobe may very well be the 2nd best SG of all-time....................that is NOT hate.

RebirthOfCool said:

phunkdaddy said:

Bill Fartwright.

He was legit when he played with the Knicks but his game had deteriorated

some when he got to the Bulls.

Then again, MJ never faced a great center in the NBA Finals. Ever.

You're right, he never faced a great center in the Finals, but the Bulls did beat teams with great centers in the Eastern Conference Playoffs. They went up against Ewing and the Knicks on a regular basis and they went up against Shaq and the Magic.

So to say Jordan never faced a great center is kinda false.

He did go up against great Power Forwards like Malone and Barkley. The Bulls also went against the Sonics with Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton in their primes.

RebirthOfCool said:

Timmy84 said:

Kobe has impressed me the last couple of years, ain't even gonna lie about that.

People are so sprung on MJ that they refuse to see what's happening right in front of their eyes. Kobe is a muthafuckin' beast, but there are some that hate on him so much and/or don't want MJ's legacy to be fucked with that they refuse to give him his much-deserved propers. But then again, Kobe never waited to be given his props, he just takes it. 81 points, anyone?

Do they have 2 be sprung......or just deal with facts?

RebirthOfCool said:

phunkdaddy said:

Bill Fartwright.

He was legit when he played with the Knicks but his game had deteriorated

some when he got to the Bulls.

Then again, MJ never faced a great center in the NBA Finals. Ever.

Jordan is 9-0 in championship situations. Name a single other player with such credentials.

Just 1.......please.