crazydoctor said:

Dauphin said:

It's the way of the Jedi. They are taught that fear, anger, etc. are paths to the Dark Side. How could Luke redeem himself after killing his father? There would always be that guilt, and anger in him. At some point or another, he would eventually turn to the Dark Side even if he didn't give in to the Emperor right then and there. Standing at that road, Luke decided to have faith in the goodness within his father.

I understand that he'd turn to the Dark Side after killing his father. But why does that mean he'd join the Emperor? just because they're both on the dark side doesn't mean they have to be allies.

Well, if he didn't join the Emperor right then and there... the Emperor would have killed him.

uPtoWnNY said:

crazydoctor said:

I understand that he'd turn to the Dark Side after killing his father. But why does that mean he'd join the Emperor? just because they're both on the dark side doesn't mean they have to be allies.

(Star Wats geek time:

The novels go into more detail. Vader & Palpatine played mind games with each other(Vader found out Luke was his son in between ANH & ESB, but he feigned surprise when the Emperor told him about Luke's parentage). Each had their own plans for Luke(there can only be two Sith, master & apprentice) - Palpatine wanted a new apprentice(he was disappointed that Vader lost to Obi-Wan and would never reach his full potential because of his injuries). Vader wanted Palpatine gone so he and Luke could rule the Empire, and he was weary of being under Palpatine's control.

Palpatine's scheme almost worked - Luke was about to deliver the killing blow to his father until the Emperor's boasting snapped him out of his rage and brought him back to the light.

but even after killing Vader, what reason would luke have to join the emperor? unless it was just out of fear to save his own skin...

Dauphin said:

crazydoctor said:

I understand that he'd turn to the Dark Side after killing his father. But why does that mean he'd join the Emperor? just because they're both on the dark side doesn't mean they have to be allies.

Well, if he didn't join the Emperor right then and there... the Emperor would have killed him.

so he would have joined him out of fear?

Genesia said:

ernestsewell said:

I forget if he had the earring on the night before, but it was a segue to the next day. There's a lot of times when the kid wakes up (and there's always a train sound when he does, which is interesting). The train sound almost indicates morning or day time, when things start to pick up again, thereby lending to the unspoken notion that it's the next day. The fight w/ the mom is at night, and she obviously gets up and moves on, and he crawls in bed. Point being - there's a segue pushing time forward to the next day, so for me, it makes sense.

No, he wakes up the same night. This is when he tells Apollonia to come see him around 8:00 and it's between 8:20 and 8:30 when his parents burst into the basement. He actually looks at the clock - it says 8:20 - and then he picks up the Doritos bag and goes to listen to Wendy and Lisa's tape. That's when the fight breaks out. That happens, then he wakes up (with earring) as Apollonia climbs through the window with the guitar. I'm pretty sure there's another "clock check" at that point - and it says something like 10:30. After The Kid smacks her for joining Morris's band, she climbs out the window - and you can see that it's still dark outside.

I never really read that part of the script before! "Bye, Skipper"

Dauphin said:

Fenwick said:

Exactly.

Dauphin to your point about getting John out of hiding. That's exactly what he does two minites later. But if he's willing to do it two minutes later when she got away, why not just do it the first time around and not risk things going wrong? (Which of course, they conveniently did). I just can not buy it is because of some lofty higher agena to extract more information from either of them before he offs them. That's not his M.O.

For me, the answer is painfully simple. Don't want to kill the heroine off in a Hollywood blockbuster if you don't HAVE to.....

Oh definately, it was a plot that was adjusted to fit the screen. But since it DID happen the way it did, you have to fill in those "plot holes" with logical reasoning. Sometimes, plot holes require SO MUCH of a leap in logic. In this case, I don't think it takes that much. Obviously, the T-1000 decided to use Sarah as bait. That tactic didn't work, so he impersonated her (as you said). That didn't work, so he WAS going to kill her, but Arnold started blowing him away with a shotgun.

Somehow, in his programming, using Sarah as bait must have yeilded a higher probability of sucess in that environment.

It also goes back to the T-1000 as a foil for Arnold. If Arnold is capable of "evolving" to be a friend for John. Why can't all machines do the same? Well, as we see, the T-1000 was pretty "unsavable". That would hint that most machines would be bent on the destruction of humanity.

[Edited 8/13/10 8:57am]

NO - YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! (Obviously just kidding)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Because I do view it is a MAJOR flaw that can't be explained away simply as a tactical manuever.

Heck tactically, if there was ONE person on the entire planet he could kill and assume the identity of to get to John it would be his mom. And when he finally gets the chance with his primary target, he decides on a new strategy?

Not buying it at all. You go on believing whatever hocus pocus you want to mister - I'm outta here!!!! (Hope you are laughing at my attempts at humor).....

crazydoctor said:

Dauphin said:

Well, if he didn't join the Emperor right then and there... the Emperor would have killed him.

so he would have joined him out of fear?

(yep, Star Wats geek time)

Luke would have never joined the Dark Side, even after Vader's assassination; the Obi-Wan's and Yoda's teachings were too strong, and he had the example of his father's gross mistakes; he would have delivered a desperate final attack against the Emperor, who of course, would have kicked his blonde ass; but hopefully the duel would have lasted some precious minutes and that means that the Emperor would have died trapped inside the Death Star by the time Lando destroyed it...

Anyway, the Emperor's plan was doomed to fail for several other reasons:

a) The Emperor wanted to destroy Luke's friends and the rest of the Rebellion during the Battle of Endor, so Luke would have been powerless and alone. Of course, the Emperor never thought that Leia, Lando and Han were soooo badass and so capable...

b) The Emperor wanted to enrage Luke, he wanted Luke to attack him out of disgust and anger; he succeeded, and Vader was "forced" to intervene. The duel between the "two apprentices" was on. But as Luke made clear, he "fought" in order to force Vader and the Emperor to stay inside the Death Star; he just wanted to buy some precious minutes for Lando and the others...

c) During the duel, the Emperor expected Vader to enrage Luke as well, and perhaps, out of anger, Luke would have killed his own father. He also succeeded at that point: Luke saw that his father was, for all intents and purposes, "evil" (the whole "if you don't want to turn to the dark side perhaps Leia will"), and out of anger and frustration, he decided to kill him. Of course, he was a true Jedi, and he didn't deliver the final blow. That scene is very powerful, when the Emperor finally realizes that Luke is a TRUE Jedi who would never join the dark side. Ian McDiarmid nailed that scene: you can feel the amazement, anger and fear that the Emperor felt when Luke rejected him once and for all.

d) Had Luke killed Vader, the Emperor strongly believed that Luke would have joined him, at least, for some time, now that the Rebellion was destroyed, his friends gone and his father killed by his own hands. In due time, Luke would have understood that fighting the Dark Side and the Sith was pointless. He would have understood that the Sith had the "legitimate" right to rule the galaxy because they are so powerful, they're are so badass, so smart and blah blah And if someday, Luke had decided to turn against the Emperor, by that time he would have been a Sith believer, not a Jedi, and that would have been good enough for the Emperor. That's the way of the Sith. Of course, Luke would have been a "kinder", more magnanimous Sith Emperor, but he would have been a Sith after all, a tyrant. Of course, as I said already, that was impossible, since Luke would rather die than join the Sith.

e)Vader had, at that point, a lot of doubts. He was still evil/ambitious enough, though, and he would have killed his own son to prove to the Emperor that he was still the best apprentice around. But, if Luke had joined the Dark Side heartfully to begin with, then he and his son would have attacked the Emperor together, that's for sure. Again, those plans and illusions were doomed to fail due to Luke's sttubornness and will to die if necessary...Anyway, the Emperor failed to realize that there was the possibility where Vader would betray him in order to save his noble and admirable son. And that's exactly what happened...

The script of ROTJ, as it stands, is pretty solid for me...despite the ewoks, the Emperor-Vader-Luke scenes alone make ROTJ a 5-stars sci/fi-spiritual-philosophical classic for me...

and those who say that the line "a certain point of view" is lame, are just missing the whole point; with that line, Obi-Wan perfectly expressed the dual nature of Anakin/Vader, the whole Jekyll/Hyde thing, and that was the best explanation that the teen Luke needed at the time of Episode IV. Besides, the Jedi are known for their metaphors, analogies and other tricks out of wisdom or prudence...

JoeTyler said:

crazydoctor said:

so he would have joined him out of fear?

(yep, Star Wats geek time)

Luke would have never joined the Dark Side, even after Vader's assassination; the Obi-Wan's and Yoda's teachings were too strong, and he had the example of his father's gross mistakes; he would have delivered a desperate final attack against the Emperor, who of course, would have kicked his blonde ass; but hopefully the duel would have lasted some precious minutes and that means that the Emperor would have died trapped inside the Death Star by the time Lando destroyed it...

Anyway, the Emperor's plan was doomed to fail for several other reasons:

a) The Emperor wanted to destroy Luke's friends and the rest of the Rebellion during the Battle of Endor, so Luke would have been powerless and alone. Of course, the Emperor never thought that Leia, Lando and Han were soooo badass and so capable...

b) The Emperor wanted to enrage Luke, he wanted Luke to attack him out of disgust and anger; he succeeded, and Vader was "forced" to intervene. The duel between the "two apprentices" was on. But as Luke made clear, he "fought" in order to force Vader and the Emperor to stay inside the Death Star; he just wanted to buy some precious minutes for Lando and the others...

c) During the duel, the Emperor expected Vader to enrage Luke as well, and perhaps, out of anger, Luke would have killed his own father. He also succeeded at that point: Luke saw that his father was, for all intents and purposes, "evil" (the whole "if you don't want to turn to the dark side perhaps Leia will"), and out of anger and frustration, he decided to kill him. Of course, he was a true Jedi, and he didn't deliver the final blow. That scene is very powerful, when the Emperor finally realizes that Luke is a TRUE Jedi who would never join the dark side. Ian McDiarmid nailed that scene: you can feel the amazement, anger and fear that the Emperor felt when Luke rejected him once and for all.

d) Had Luke killed Vader, the Emperor strongly believed that Luke would have joined him, at least, for some time, now that the Rebellion was destroyed, his friends gone and his father killed by his own hands. In due time, Luke would have understood that fighting the Dark Side and the Sith was pointless. He would have understood that the Sith had the "legitimate" right to rule the galaxy because they are so powerful, they're are so badass, so smart and blah blah And if someday, Luke had decided to turn against the Emperor, by that time he would have been a Sith believer, not a Jedi, and that would have been good enough for the Emperor. That's the way of the Sith. Of course, Luke would have been a "kinder", more magnanimous Sith Emperor, but he would have been a Sith after all, a tyrant. Of course, as I said already, that was impossible, since Luke would rather die than join the Sith.

e)Vader had, at that point, a lot of doubts. He was still evil/ambitious enough, though, and he would have killed his own son to prove to the Emperor that he was still the best apprentice around. But, if Luke had joined the Dark Side heartfully to begin with, then he and his son would have attacked the Emperor together, that's for sure. Again, those plans and illusions were doomed to fail due to Luke's sttubornness and will to die if necessary...Anyway, the Emperor failed to realize that there was the possibility where Vader would betray him in order to save his noble and admirable son. And that's exactly what happened...

The script of ROTJ, as it stands, is pretty solid for me...despite the ewoks, the Emperor-Vader-Luke scenes alone make ROTJ a 5-stars sci/fi-spiritual-philosophical classic for me...

and those who say that the line "a certain point of view" is lame, are just missing the whole point; with that line, Obi-Wan perfectly expressed the dual nature of Anakin/Vader, the whole Jekyll/Hyde thing, and that was the best explanation that the teen Luke needed at the time of Episode IV. Besides, the Jedi are known for their metaphors, analogies and other tricks out of wisdom or prudence...

wrong on that last point. It's a fact that Lucas had written and rewritten with ghost writers the script for Star Wars until is was a perfect adventure plot line with the plot in place, and intended as a stand alone movie. He didn't think he would make any sequels!

The line about from a certain point of view is LAME. I thought it was lame when I saw it in 1883, and me and my friends always joked about that line and used it as an excuse with each other... lol

Read the interviews with Gary Kurtz about Lucas's changing mentality towards sweating over the story by the time he made Return of the Jedi. Kurtz just quit rather than be part of it.

The whole duality idea is stupid to me. And no that ine of dialogue just sounds like a lame coverup for a plot hole in a big movie. A sequel to one of the biggest.

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

It would be like judging Prince's mythos by including what associate artists have done on their own... not valid in my opinion.

[Edited 8/13/10 11:04am]

ufoclub said:

It's a fact that Lucas had written and rewritten with ghost writers the script for Star Wars until is was a perfect adventure plot line with the plot in place, and intended as a stand alone movie. He didn't think he would make any sequels!

Yeah, I know that SW was supposed to be a oner, but since nobody said in the 1977 original that Vader WAS NOT Luke's father, Lucas could do with the character whatever he wanted to in the sequel...Lucas just said that Vader killed Luke's father (Anakin), which is true, from a certain point of view He NEVER said that "Yep, Vader killed your father, so Vader IS NOT your father".

And retrospectively, that "retcon" only makes the 1977 original a more powerful film, I mean, during the entire movie Vader is bent on killing his OWN SONS, and he doesn't even know it. On the other hand, the man that Luke and Leia fear the most, Vader, is THEIR OWN FATHER, and they don't even know it. Genius

ufoclub said:

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

It would be like judging Prince's mythos by including what associate artists have done on their own... not valid in my opinion.

some radical statements there eh? hell, that means you don't watch the old trilogy anymore... ??

whatever, I'm one of those rare fans who thinks that Part.III is better than Part.II (Empire strikes, who was essentially a bridge) and Part.I, with all that clumsy/childish acting, the standard-predictable adventure script and the DATED special effects (that's why I own the 1997 restoration version and not the 1977 original )

Here's my attempt to fill in the Terminator 2 plot hole.

At this point in the movie, the T-1000 is glitching and would not be able to become a perfect duplicate of Sarah Connor. I haven't seen the theatrical release in years so I don't know if this happens in that, but in the Director's Cut when he does morph into Sarah, his legs meld in with the grating on the floor, a dead giveaway that he's a fake. From a distance he might be able to trick John with her appearence, but as soon as it became apparent it was the T-1000 he would likely try to escape.

I think, realizing he was not operating at full capacity, he decided it would be more effective to lure John out of hiding to try and save his mother, who would be visibly in peril if John had come across her while the T-1000 had her pinned down. He realizes John would not necessarily behave rationally were he to find his mother in a life threatening situation, because of the risk he took to save her at the mental institution (Something he was reminded continually was an unwise decision). If in a fit of emotions, he might have foolishly rushed to save her from the T-1000, at which point it'd be an easy kill for him, something that might not be effective if it were apparent she were already dead.

Just a thought. It might very well be a plot hole, but that's the best explaination I can think of to the contrary.

[Edited 8/13/10 11:55am]

HobbesLeCute said:

Here's my attempt to fill in the Terminator 2 plot hole.

At this point in the movie, the T-1000 is glitching and would not be able to become a perfect duplicate of Sarah Connor. I haven't seen the theatrical release in years so I don't know if this happens in that, but in the Director's Cut when he does morph into Sarah, his legs meld in with the grating on the floor, a dead giveaway that he's a fake. From a distance he might be able to trick John with her appearence, but as soon as it became apparent it was the T-1000 he would likely try to escape.

I think, realizing he was not operating at full capacity, he decided it would be more effective to lure John out of hiding to try and save his mother, who would be visibly in peril if John had come across her while the T-1000 had her pinned down. He realizes John would not necessarily behave rationally were he to find his mother in a life threatening situation, because of the risk he took to save her at the mental institution (Something he was reminded continually was an unwise decision). If in a fit of emotions, he might have foolishly rushed to save her from the T-1000, at which point it'd be an easy kill for him, something that might not be effective if it were apparent she were already dead.

Just a thought. It might very well be a plot hole, but that's the best explaination I can think of to the contrary.

[Edited 8/13/10 11:55am]

Now THAT makes sense!!! Fenwick - SUCK IT!

JoeTyler said:

ufoclub said:

It's a fact that Lucas had written and rewritten with ghost writers the script for Star Wars until is was a perfect adventure plot line with the plot in place, and intended as a stand alone movie. He didn't think he would make any sequels!

Yeah, I know that SW was supposed to be a oner, but since nobody said in the 1977 original that Vader WAS NOT Luke's father, Lucas could do with the character whatever he wanted to in the sequel...Lucas just said that Vader killed Luke's father (Anakin), which is true, from a certain point of view He NEVER said that "Yep, Vader killed your father, so Vader IS NOT your father".

And retrospectively, that "retcon" only makes the 1977 original a more powerful film, I mean, during the entire movie Vader is bent on killing his OWN SONS, and he doesn't even know it. On the other hand, the man that Luke and Leia fear the most, Vader, is THEIR OWN FATHER, and they don't even know it. Genius

ufoclub said:

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

It would be like judging Prince's mythos by including what associate artists have done on their own... not valid in my opinion.

some radical statements there eh? hell, that means you don't watch the old trilogy anymore... ??

whatever, I'm one of those rare fans who thinks that Part.III is better than Part.II (Empire strikes, who was essentially a bridge) and Part.I, with all that clumsy/childish acting, the standard-predictable adventure script and the DATED special effects (that's why I own the 1997 restoration version and not the 1977 original )

I watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars and it's novelization and the marvel comic.

I'm a fan of Empire Strikes Back but not as an all engrossing movie experience like Star Wars... Turning the mystical force into karate style flips and levitating shit mixed with very silly elements like the silly looking giant space slug or fake looking wampa scene took me out of the story. But outside of that the acting and character are great in both movies. The only weak acting is Luke's part according to some people in Star Wars always just seemed like a restless california teenager which is what the character was supposed to be a metaphor for. Name one scene in Star Wars as great as the first meeting with Han, or the scene where they are hiding out in the guard room for the ship hanger and Luke has to convince Han of the value of rescuing the Princess (who is amusingly a bitter, authoritative bitch, not a damsel in distress).

Return of the Jedi... name one, just one great character moment in that entire film, one part of good acting. They are all horrible! I hate that movie.That is the one with clumsy acting, direction, plot, designs, etc.

Star Wars is art. I could go into every scene and deconstruct the value. It's hilarious that you describe it as a standard-predictable adventure script. I mean they even kill Obi-wan, and the climax is an abstract designed conflict of spaceship formations. Completely original.

If you write out a plot outline of Star Wars and compare it to a plot outline of Return of the Jedi... you might see which one is inferior.

But I respect tha you like it. I just can't watch it. I'd rather watch any of the new trilogy even though they seem to have no characters at all, just moving pictures of stuff and people that say things with no emotion imparted.

ufoclub said:

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

I don't hate 'Return of the Care Bears', but it's the weakest of the first trilogy. Would have been a much better film if Lucas used Wookies instead of those friggin' Ewoks. I guess the technology at the time didn't allow him to.

'Empire' was the best out of all the SW films.

[Edited 8/13/10 12:12pm]

Lucas killing Padme at the end of Revenge of the Sith, even though everyone knows that Leia remembers her mother when she was a child. N No I don't buy for a moment that she was able to imprint her mom when she came out of the womb. Thats worse than the certain point of view.

lazycrockett said:

Lucas killing Padme at the end of Revenge of the Sith, even though everyone knows that Leia remembers her mother when she was a child. N No I don't buy for a moment that she was able to imprint her mom when she came out of the womb. Thats worse than the certain point of view.

Yeah, that was a dumb retcon, too. ROTJ(the movie and novel) imply Padme died when Leia was a toddler.

uPtoWnNY said:

ufoclub said:

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

I don't hate 'Return of the Care Bears', but it's the weakest of the first trilogy. Would have been a much better film if Lucas used Wookies instead of those friggin' Ewoks. I guess the technology at the time didn't allow him to.

'Empire' was the best out of all the SW films.

[Edited 8/13/10 12:12pm]

If we had got wookies, I really think ROTJ would have worked. Lucas tried so hard to do the nature vs technology during the battle of endor, but those damn ewoks kept getting in the way. N honestly by the time of the filming everyone in the cast was pretty much over the trilogy. Ford wanted to be killed off but Lucas wouldn't do it, so he basically is just walking through it. Though I do think the scene between Luke n Leia when she realizes that not only is Luke Vader son, but shes his daughter Carrie does a great job of showing, surprise, caring and then disgust. Bout the best scene acting wise she was giving.

In Star Wars- A New Hope, Ben Kenobi says that he hasn´t used the name "Obi Wan" for ages, and that the last time he used it was before Luke was even born. But that is bullshit when you consider that Obi Wan still used the name Obi Wan toward the end of "Revenge of the Sith".

To Ufoclub: I might be wrong but didn´t Lucas say around the release of Star Wars-A New Hope that this was actually part of a movie franchise that is at least nine episodes long? He later reduced it to six episodes but still, as far as I know, a sequel was always part of his plan for Star Wars.

There´s this novel called A Splinter In The Mind´s Eye, and as far as I remember it was written as a potential sequel, albeit with a much lower budget in case Star Wars didn´t bring in any profit.

And the idea of Darth Vader probably being Luke´s father was also fully developed during the shooting of Star Wars IV, hence the name Darth "Vader" (i.e father= vader in Dutch...yeah, I know,m why Dutch, of all languages, but hey, that´s what I read somewhere, and "vader" really is "father" in Dutch....and "Vater" in German).

That name can´t really be a coincidence, can it? Sure, why would Palpatine give him that moniker when he doesn´t even know about Anakin´s children, but that is something only Lucas knows.

lazycrockett said:

uPtoWnNY said:

I don't hate 'Return of the Care Bears', but it's the weakest of the first trilogy. Would have been a much better film if Lucas used Wookies instead of those friggin' Ewoks. I guess the technology at the time didn't allow him to.

'Empire' was the best out of all the SW films.

[Edited 8/13/10 12:12pm]

If we had got wookies, I really think ROTJ would have worked. Lucas tried so hard to do the nature vs technology during the battle of endor, but those damn ewoks kept getting in the way. N honestly by the time of the filming everyone in the cast was pretty much over the trilogy. Ford wanted to be killed off but Lucas wouldn't do it, so he basically is just walking through it. Though I do think the scene between Luke n Leia when she realizes that not only is Luke Vader son, but shes his daughter Carrie does a great job of showing, surprise, caring and then disgust. Bout the best scene acting wise she was giving.

Okay I'll give it that for acting, that scene with Luke and Leia... but I for not one moment thnk of Leia as Luke's sister. I reject that plot point as very very silly. I go by what Lucas had decided on in Star Wars.

you know a long time ago I made an edit of what I called Star Wars 2... out of Empire and Return of the Jedi. In it... Vader is not Luke's father and Leia is not Luke's sister. I can't remember what I did about the Emperor... I hate his personification! I have that edit on VHS, this was before DVD's and I used laserdiscs to super VHS to do my edit. I had a lot of free time that summer.

Fenwick said:

Dauphin said:

Oh definately, it was a plot that was adjusted to fit the screen. But since it DID happen the way it did, you have to fill in those "plot holes" with logical reasoning. Sometimes, plot holes require SO MUCH of a leap in logic. In this case, I don't think it takes that much. Obviously, the T-1000 decided to use Sarah as bait. That tactic didn't work, so he impersonated her (as you said). That didn't work, so he WAS going to kill her, but Arnold started blowing him away with a shotgun.

Somehow, in his programming, using Sarah as bait must have yeilded a higher probability of sucess in that environment.

It also goes back to the T-1000 as a foil for Arnold. If Arnold is capable of "evolving" to be a friend for John. Why can't all machines do the same? Well, as we see, the T-1000 was pretty "unsavable". That would hint that most machines would be bent on the destruction of humanity.

[Edited 8/13/10 8:57am]

NO - YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! (Obviously just kidding)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Because I do view it is a MAJOR flaw that can't be explained away simply as a tactical manuever.

Heck tactically, if there was ONE person on the entire planet he could kill and assume the identity of to get to John it would be his mom. And when he finally gets the chance with his primary target, he decides on a new strategy?

Not buying it at all. You go on believing whatever hocus pocus you want to mister - I'm outta here!!!! (Hope you are laughing at my attempts at humor).....

Well, wouldn't he have just as good of a chance to trick them if he....

Shape Shifted into Arnold!!!

Hey it's all good! I am an avid comic reader, so discussions like these are fun to me. And like a good condom, some ribbing is always appreciated!

uPtoWnNY said:

ufoclub said:

By the way, I can't even watch Return of the Jedi... I hate it. I hate the plot, the characters, most o the set pieces, the Emperor sucks... it's like someone with bad taste made the final Star Wars film and put muppets and Ewoks, and no hint of danger, and Han Solo and Princess Leia's characters are jokes, like the actors are just showing and up and having fun hanging out... like those Ocean 11 movies where it's like everyone is having a fine comfortable time... I'd say the entire movie is a plot hole. Hate Return of the Jedi. Also, I don't read or watch any of the ancillary Star Wars stuff unless Lucas has control because it all is so sloppy.

I don't hate 'Return of the Care Bears', but it's the weakest of the first trilogy. Would have been a much better film if Lucas used Wookies instead of those friggin' Ewoks. I guess the technology at the time didn't allow him to.

'Empire' was the best out of all the SW films.

[Edited 8/13/10 12:12pm]

The technology at the time didn´t allow him to use more wookies?

But they already used a bunch of wookies in that infamous Star Wars holiday special in the late 1970s:

[img:$uid]http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/images-3/wookies-star-wars-holiday-special.jpg[/img:$uid]

ufoclub said:

lazycrockett said:

If we had got wookies, I really think ROTJ would have worked. Lucas tried so hard to do the nature vs technology during the battle of endor, but those damn ewoks kept getting in the way. N honestly by the time of the filming everyone in the cast was pretty much over the trilogy. Ford wanted to be killed off but Lucas wouldn't do it, so he basically is just walking through it. Though I do think the scene between Luke n Leia when she realizes that not only is Luke Vader son, but shes his daughter Carrie does a great job of showing, surprise, caring and then disgust. Bout the best scene acting wise she was giving.

Okay I'll give it that for acting, that scene with Luke and Leia... but I for not one moment thnk of Leia as Luke's sister. I reject that plot point as very very silly. I go by what Lucas had decided on in Star Wars.

you know a long time ago I made an edit of what I called Star Wars 2... out of Empire and Return of the Jedi. In it... Vader is not Luke's father and Leia is not Luke's sister. I can't remember what I did about the Emperor... I hate his personification! I have that edit on VHS, this was before DVD's and I used laserdiscs to super VHS to do my edit. I had a lot of free time that summer.

But didn´t Yoda already hint at Leia being Luke´s sister when he said that there was "another one" in Empire Strikes Back?

KoolEaze said:

In Star Wars- A New Hope, Ben Kenobi says that he hasn´t used the name "Obi Wan" for ages, and that the last time he used it was before Luke was even born. But that is bullshit when you consider that Obi Wan still used the name Obi Wan toward the end of "Revenge of the Sith".

To Ufoclub: I might be wrong but didn´t Lucas say around the release of Star Wars-A New Hope that this was actually part of a movie franchise that is at least nine episodes long? He later reduced it to six episodes but still, as far as I know, a sequel was always part of his plan for Star Wars.

There´s this novel called A Splinter In The Mind´s Eye, and as far as I remember it was written as a potential sequel, albeit with a much lower budget in case Star Wars didn´t bring in any profit.

And the idea of Darth Vader probably being Luke´s father was also fully developed during the shooting of Star Wars IV, hence the name Darth "Vader" (i.e father= vader in Dutch...yeah, I know,m why Dutch, of all languages, but hey, that´s what I read somewhere, and "vader" really is "father" in Dutch....and "Vater" in German).

That name can´t really be a coincidence, can it? Sure, why would Palpatine give him that moniker when he doesn´t even know about Anakin´s children, but that is something only Lucas knows.

The last 3 movies are suppose to deal with the rebuilding of the republic and Han n Leia's twin jedi kids or at least I think thats the focus on the 7 to 9. I also think its 20 years or so later than ROTJ.

ufoclub said:

JoeTyler said:

some radical statements there eh? hell, that means you don't watch the old trilogy anymore... ??

whatever, I'm one of those rare fans who thinks that Part.III is better than Part.II (Empire strikes, who was essentially a bridge) and Part.I, with all that clumsy/childish acting, the standard-predictable adventure script and the DATED special effects (that's why I own the 1997 restoration version and not the 1977 original )

I watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars and it's novelization and the marvel comic.

I'm a fan of Empire Strikes Back but not as an all engrossing movie experience like Star Wars... Turning the mystical force into karate style flips and levitating shit mixed with very silly elements like the silly looking giant space slug or fake looking wampa scene took me out of the story. But outside of that the acting and character are great in both movies. The only weak acting is Luke's part according to some people in Star Wars always just seemed like a restless california teenager which is what the character was supposed to be a metaphor for. Name one scene in Star Wars as great as the first meeting with Han, or the scene where they are hiding out in the guard room for the ship hanger and Luke has to convince Han of the value of rescuing the Princess (who is amusingly a bitter, authoritative bitch, not a damsel in distress).

Return of the Jedi... name one, just one great character moment in that entire film, one part of good acting. They are all horrible! I hate that movie.That is the one with clumsy acting, direction, plot, designs, etc.

Star Wars is art. I could go into every scene and deconstruct the value. It's hilarious that you describe it as a standard-predictable adventure script. I mean they even kill Obi-wan, and the climax is an abstract designed conflict of spaceship formations. Completely original.

If you write out a plot outline of Star Wars and compare it to a plot outline of Return of the Jedi... you might see which one is inferior.

But I respect tha you like it. I just can't watch it. I'd rather watch any of the new trilogy even though they seem to have no characters at all, just moving pictures of stuff and people that say things with no emotion imparted.

Well, as we all know, the original Star Wars was HEAVILY based on Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress. I'm not sayin' that it's a complete ripoff or whatever, but you can clearly see that Lucas basically took everything good about that movie, he mixed those elements with 2.000 years old (but still good) cliches 'bout adventure tales (the mentor, the villian, the young and scared hero, the reckless sidekick, the damisel in distress, the final epic battle, etc.) and set the result of that mix in a futuristic/galactic scenario. THAT WAS the key of the SW original 1977 success, the galactic scenario, plus the (at that time) amazingly good special effects AND the classic John Williams score. Had SW been a western or a medieval tale, it would have been a moderate success, at best...

But don't get me wrong, I still think is the best postmodernist adventure tale of all time, and of course, the best sci-fi/action movie of all time. And I gotta admit that turning the "damisel in distress" into a fierce, strong & angry young woman was truly revolutionary.

I just think Empire Strikes and ROTJ are better stories, but not necessarily more entertaining films, though. It's like the Toy Story trilogy. Part 1 is still visually stunning and very entertaining, but it's just a very good introduction to the rest of the saga, where the real "meat" of the story is developed with amazingly good results. For me, ESB and ROTJ, with its tales of estranged family members, unlikely romantic relationships, real drematic moments, unexpected plot twists, increased darkness and a noble young man forced to fight a nasty personal battle against pure corruption, greed and uncontrolled ambition are better than the old "I wanna be a hero, let's rescue the lady and save the day" cliche...

[Edited 8/13/10 13:11pm]

KoolEaze said:

And the idea of Darth Vader probably being Luke´s father was also fully developed during the shooting of Star Wars IV, hence the name Darth "Vader" (i.e father= vader in Dutch...yeah, I know,m why Dutch, of all languages, but hey, that´s what I read somewhere, and "vader" really is "father" in Dutch....and "Vater" in German).

That name can´t really be a coincidence, can it? Sure, why would Palpatine give him that moniker when he doesn´t even know about Anakin´s children, but that is something only Lucas knows.

of course he knew , rewatch Episode III, the scene where Palpatine finally reveals to Anakin that HE IS the sith master the Jedi were looking for...

ok. while we're on Star Wars... the biggest idiocy ever... Greedo shooting first... this is the biggest piece of ridiculousness I've ever seen on screen. Why did Lucas do this?

I mean let's forget what it does to the characters or story... it just looks plain ridiculous, it's something you'd see in someone shooting a home movie or something. it's like the 3 stooges or something with greedo missing at point blank range.

Can we all agree that Obi Wan Kenobi was possibly the worst jedi of all time?

lol

crazydoctor said:

ok. while we're on Star Wars... the biggest idiocy ever... Greedo shooting first... this is the biggest piece of ridiculousness I've ever seen on screen. Why did Lucas do this?

I mean let's forget what it does to the characters or story... it just looks plain ridiculous, it's something you'd see in someone shooting a home movie or something. it's like the 3 stooges or something with greedo missing at point blank range.

yeah, that sucked, he completely changed the meaning and the feel of an original badass scene. In fact, the original scene, where Han kills Greedo in cold blood is my favourite badass scene of all time. Not even Lee Marvin or Charles Bronson did something half as badass as that Han Solo scene...

Dauphin said:

Can we all agree that Obi Wan Kenobi was possibly the worst jedi of all time?

lol

That must be Qui-Gon Jinn

crazydoctor said:

ok. while we're on Star Wars... the biggest idiocy ever... Greedo shooting first... this is the biggest piece of ridiculousness I've ever seen on screen. Why did Lucas do this?

I mean let's forget what it does to the characters or story... it just looks plain ridiculous, it's something you'd see in someone shooting a home movie or something. it's like the 3 stooges or something with greedo missing at point blank range.

Hayden Christensen at the end of ROTJ was dumb too. Lucas is truly a mad genius.

Dauphin said:

Can we all agree that Obi Wan Kenobi was possibly the worst jedi of all time?

lol

actually, I think it might be yoda. I mean don't all his pupils mess up except Luke.

KoolEaze said:

There´s this novel called A Splinter In The Mind´s Eye, and as far as I remember it was written as a potential sequel, albeit with a much lower budget in case Star Wars didn´t bring in any profit.

'Splinter' takes place between ANH & ESB.