Women have it pretty hard in the world no? Lot's of pressure is put on women all around the world but would you say women are oppressed all over the world?

Pressure to be thin

Pressure to be curvy

Pressure to breed

Pressure to not breed and pursue success outside the home

Pressure to pursue higher education

Pressure to avoid education lest you be beaten (some cultures)

Pressure to look young no matter your age

Pressure to be virtuous and maybe prudish

Pressure to be sexually adventurous and maybe whorish

Pressure to raise kids

Pressure to not raise your kids and work

Pressure to not raise your kids in a way that goes against societal standards

Pressure to marry

Pressure to not fight for what you're worth in the event of a divorce

Pressure to be a girlfriend/wife/mother/nurse maid/buddy all wrapped in one

Pressure to keep your mouth shut for fear of imasculating your male counterpart

Pressure to be overly feminine

Pressure to be less feminine

So? Are we oppressed and if not then what gives with the above listed pressures? Are those pressures real or perceived?

Discuss.

How is that list any different from the man's version of unrealistic expectations?

Graycap23 said:

How is that list any different from the man's version of unrealistic expectations?

Well...

I don't think men are pressured to be curvy

I don't think men are pressured to look young no matter their age

I don't think men are pressured to breed

I dont' think men are pressured to avoid education

I don't think men are pressured to not raise their kids and work

I don't think men are pressured to be virtous and prudish

and on and on

come on now....you really had to ask that?

DesireeNevermind said:

Graycap23 said:

How is that list any different from the man's version of unrealistic expectations?

Well...

I don't think men are pressured to be curvy

I don't think men are pressured to look young no matter their age

I don't think men are pressured to breed

I dont' think men are pressured to avoid education

I don't think men are pressured to not raise their kids and work

I don't think men are pressured to be virtous and prudish

and on and on

come on now....you really had to ask that?

The bottom line is quite simple. Some people have a brain and know how 2 use it. The others get manipulated by some of the nonsense on this list. Oppressed? Maybe....controlled? YES.

[Edited 6/21/10 13:18pm]

more like depressed, which leads to self oppression

Graycap23 said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Well...

I don't think men are pressured to be curvy

I don't think men are pressured to look young no matter their age

I don't think men are pressured to breed

I dont' think men are pressured to avoid education

I don't think men are pressured to not raise their kids and work

I don't think men are pressured to be virtous and prudish

and on and on

come on now....you really had to ask that?

The bottom line is quite simple. Some people have a brain and how how 2 use it. The others get manipulated by some of the nonsense on this list. Oppressed? Maybe....controlled? YES.

Controlled vs. Oppressed...eh semantics. A person feeling weighed down by societal expectations, images, standards and laws might feel oppressed. A girl in a muslim country that frowns upon educationg females might very well feel oppressed if she wants to go to school but can't. A woman who is a working mother might feel oppressed by a society that both demands women stay at home to raise their kids and frowns upon women who don't go out have careers and get a higher education and earn less than their male counterpart for the same type of work.

It's not just about having a brain but also having a brain whilst living among other brains that can affect how you live your life and the opportunities available to you. The whole beauty think speaks for itself.

BklynBabe said:

more like depressed, which leads to self oppression

now that's a very interesting way to look at it. but then i wonder if the oppression leads to the depression or if the external oppression breeds internal oppression.

you are too clever.

DesireeNevermind said:

Graycap23 said:

The bottom line is quite simple. Some people have a brain and how how 2 use it. The others get manipulated by some of the nonsense on this list. Oppressed? Maybe....controlled? YES.

Controlled vs. Oppressed...eh semantics. A person feeling weighed down by societal expectations, images, standards and laws might feel oppressed. A girl in a muslim country that frowns upon educationg females might very well feel oppressed if she wants to go to school but can't. A woman who is a working mother might feel oppressed by a society that both demands women stay at home to raise their kids and frowns upon women who don't go out have careers and get a higher education and earn less than their male counterpart for the same type of work.

These are two entirely different situations. The girl in the muslim country can land in jail or be stoned to death for breaking the law. Society will punish her.

What will society do to the working mother that doesn't follow its expectations?

crazydoctor said:

DesireeNevermind said:

Controlled vs. Oppressed...eh semantics. A person feeling weighed down by societal expectations, images, standards and laws might feel oppressed. A girl in a muslim country that frowns upon educationg females might very well feel oppressed if she wants to go to school but can't. A woman who is a working mother might feel oppressed by a society that both demands women stay at home to raise their kids and frowns upon women who don't go out have careers and get a higher education and earn less than their male counterpart for the same type of work.

These are two entirely different situations. The girl in the muslim country can land in jail or be stoned to death for breaking the law. Society will punish her.

What will society do to the working mother that doesn't follow its expectations?

Who knows what society will do to her? Ridicule? Condescension? Make her feel inadequate in some way? Like bklyn said....the woman could be come depressed. Some depressed people can become suicidal. Jus sayin' some women may actually be OPPRESSED ( in the strict sense of the word) and some women may actually feel OPPRESSED. Good post though.

some women are definitely oppressed, especially in other countries, and in this country might still see glass ceilings & face some rough things like anyone

But I think they have it pretty good now and can do pretty much anything they set their minds to (my boss is a woman, and the previous boss was a woman, too), and as was said above, the expectations are only that, expectations, pressure, etc, not requirements.

And also said above, men have their own set of them--make money, be strong, be sensitive, be bold, drive a nice car, have tight abs, be funny, know sports, respect women, take charge, let women take charge sometimes, pay the bill, be equals, be a man, wax your back, be a good father, hide the fact that you've been programmed to lust after every woman you see...

[Edited 6/21/10 13:31pm]

NDRU said:

And also said above, men have their own set of them--make money, be strong, be sensitive, be bold, drive a nice car, have tight abs, be funny, know sports, respect women, take charge, let women take charge sometimes, pay the bill, be equals, be a man, wax your back, be a good father, hide the fact that you've been programmed to lust after every woman you see...

[Edited 6/21/10 13:31pm]

The pressure to have sex. Male virgins get no respect in western countries.

NDRU said:

some women are definitely oppressed, especially in other countries, and in this country might still see glass ceilings & face some rough things like anyone

But I think they have it pretty good now and can do pretty much anything they set their minds to (my boss is a woman, and the previous boss was a woman, too), and as was said above, the expectations are only that, expectations, pressure, etc, not requirements.

And also said above, men have their own set of them--make money, be strong, be sensitive, be bold, drive a nice car, have tight abs, be funny, know sports, respect women, take charge, let women take charge sometimes, pay the bill, be equals, be a man, wax your back, be a good father, hide the fact that you've been programmed to lust after every woman you see...

[Edited 6/21/10 13:31pm]

I'm currently reading a book called "Enlightened Sexism" and what you're saying reminds me of this.

From a Time Magazine article/interview with the author (from http://www.time.com/time/...25,00.html)

DesireeNevermind said:

crazydoctor said:

These are two entirely different situations. The girl in the muslim country can land in jail or be stoned to death for breaking the law. Society will punish her.

What will society do to the working mother that doesn't follow its expectations?

Who knows what society will do to her? Ridicule? Condescension? Make her feel inadequate in some way? Like bklyn said....the woman could be come depressed. Some depressed people can become suicidal. Jus sayin' some women may actually be OPPRESSED ( in the strict sense of the word) and some women may actually feel OPPRESSED. Good post though.

All of us face that pressure from society. But yes I agree, women have it a lot tougher.

CarrieMpls said:

NDRU said:

some women are definitely oppressed, especially in other countries, and in this country might still see glass ceilings & face some rough things like anyone

But I think they have it pretty good now and can do pretty much anything they set their minds to (my boss is a woman, and the previous boss was a woman, too), and as was said above, the expectations are only that, expectations, pressure, etc, not requirements.

And also said above, men have their own set of them--make money, be strong, be sensitive, be bold, drive a nice car, have tight abs, be funny, know sports, respect women, take charge, let women take charge sometimes, pay the bill, be equals, be a man, wax your back, be a good father, hide the fact that you've been programmed to lust after every woman you see...

[Edited 6/21/10 13:31pm]

I'm currently reading a book called "Enlightened Sexism" and what you're saying reminds me of this.

From a Time Magazine article/interview with the author (from http://www.time.com/time/...25,00.html)

What is enlightened sexism?
[It's] a new, subtle form of sexism. It insists that full equality for women has been achieved, and therefore we don't need feminism anymore. So it's O.K. to resurrect retrograde, sexist images of women in the media, all with a wink and a laugh.

You write that there are two poles when it comes to images of women in the media. What are they?
We see [female] chiefs of police, surgeons and lawyers everywhere [on TV]. And that is the result of what I've labeled in the book "embedded feminism": back in the late '60s, early '70s, feminism was kind of outside of popular culture and mainstream culture. Now it's not. The goals and achievements of the women's movement are woven into our cultural fabric. So on the one hand, we see all these high-powered women who have made it to the top.

On the other hand, we see The Bachelor and The Real World and Jersey Shore and The Swan and makeover shows, in which women are basically cast as obsessed with men, obsessed with relationships and their bodies, getting into catfights over men they barely know and focused on hotness and shopping. Young women today are pulled between the message that they can do or be anything they want, that the world is their oyster [and that] full female equality has been achieved — and, on the other hand, there is enormous pressure to conform to this hyper-feminine ideal of hotness and beauty.

How did we wind up here?
There were two contradictory trends that emerged in the 1990s. [On the one hand,] there was the concern that girls were not getting the same treatment as boys in school, especially around math and science. Reviving Ophelia, about self-esteem in young women, was on the best-seller list for three years. And of course there was the Anita Hill–Clarence Thomas drama on television, in which people saw on their screens an African-American woman's charges against Thomas utterly dismissed. That produced a huge backlash, which prompted a record number of women to run for Congress. So you had this feminist ferment in the early- and mid-1990s that gave rise to what was the girl-power movement.

On the other hand, because one of the fastest-growing demographics was teenagers, teen girls were discovered as a market for all kinds of things: clothing, makeup, thongs, etc. So you had these twin forces — one progressive, one not so progressive — interacting powerfully.

You say those images of powerful woman can, in themselves, be dangerous. Why?
The media have really overrepresented how far women have come. We don't have a range of images of women, some of whom are working-class or single mothers or struggling. The media continue to [suggest] that full equality for women is a done deal. It makes it seem like feminist politics is no longer necessary. And that's so not true. Have women come a long way? Sure we have. But is there a lot more that needs to be done? You bet.

Like what?
Let me give you some statistics. In 2006 the median income for women was just over $32,000 a year. That's more than 31% less than their male counterparts. You might think those are lower-middle-class, working-class women. But take college women: when they graduate from college, a year out, they're earning 80% of what men make. Ten years out they're earning 69% of what men make. Of the top Fortune 500 companies in 2008, only 15 had a female chief executive. In the Great Recession, 75% of the job losses were sustained by men, so many families now are relying on the incomes of women, which are crappier than the incomes for men. So this is an issue that's really affecting families and children.

I have long noticed that, actually, seeing the stereotype of the black female judge on TV.

I don't think there's total equality, yet, but I think the overlap is greater and that women can now succeed at a very high level. And the negative influences are more a matter of choice (compared to being stoned for showing your ankle). Men do not have to act like Lil Wayne either, but they might yet fall into that trap.

More importantly, there are difference between the sexes that I don't think we all want to give up. It's a difficult thing to preserve the elements of sex that we want to keep and banish the ones we don't want.

DesireeNevermind said:

Women have it pretty hard in the world no? Lot's of pressure is put on women all around the world but would you say women are oppressed all over the world?

Pressure to be thin

Pressure to be curvy

Pressure to breed

Pressure to not breed and pursue success outside the home

Pressure to pursue higher education

Pressure to avoid education lest you be beaten (some cultures)

Pressure to look young no matter your age

Pressure to be virtuous and maybe prudish

Pressure to be sexually adventurous and maybe whorish

Pressure to raise kids

Pressure to not raise your kids and work

Pressure to not raise your kids in a way that goes against societal standards

Pressure to marry

Pressure to not fight for what you're worth in the event of a divorce

Pressure to be a girlfriend/wife/mother/nurse maid/buddy all wrapped in one

Pressure to keep your mouth shut for fear of imasculating your male counterpart

Pressure to be overly feminine

Pressure to be less feminine

So? Are we oppressed and if not then what gives with the above listed pressures? Are those pressures real or perceived?

Discuss.

Not to belittle or downplay the problems mentioned in your list but those are sort of "luxury" problems compared to what women in China, India, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Dubai and Abu Dhabi and parts of Russia have to go through every day.

And yes, sad as it is, women are still VERY oppressed in this day and age, in the west and in the east

Yes they are.

But in this day, age and economy who isn't, really in some ways, except for a hetero white dude with lots of money?

crazydoctor said:

NDRU said:

And also said above, men have their own set of them--make money, be strong, be sensitive, be bold, drive a nice car, have tight abs, be funny, know sports, respect women, take charge, let women take charge sometimes, pay the bill, be equals, be a man, wax your back, be a good father, hide the fact that you've been programmed to lust after every woman you see...

[Edited 6/21/10 13:31pm]

The pressure to have sex. Male virgins get no respect in western countries.

OMG....so true. Both men and women should be held accountable for virtuosity/virginity. F**k the double standard!!!!!

I personally think male virgins should get a ton of respect, as much as female virgins. Especially if they're raised in Western countries. Shows they have character and were able to exercise self-control.

NDRU said:

CarrieMpls said:

I have long noticed that, actually, seeing the stereotype of the black female judge on TV.

I don't think there's total equality, yet, but I think the overlap is greater and that women can now succeed at a very high level. And the negative influences are more a matter of choice (compared to being stoned for showing your ankle). Men do not have to act like Lil Wayne either, but they might yet fall into that trap.

More importantly, there are difference between the sexes that I don't think we all want to give up. It's a difficult thing to preserve the elements of sex that we want to keep and banish the ones we don't want.

it's always isn't it? like all tv phone numbers begin with 555

johnart said:

Yes they are.

But in this day, age and economy who isn't, really in some ways, except for a hetero white dude with lots of money?

and men named Dan living in Thailand.

This has little to do with this thread, but I'm kinda tired of the whole battle of the sexes theme in TV shows and commercials ALWAYS resulting in women winning. Okay, we get it, women can do anything a man can do. It could be a piss standing up contest and they'd still have the women win it.

But what brought this to mind is those damn Corona commercials where the guy checks out a girl, gets caught by hiw woman, gets lime in the face. A woman checks out a guy, he shakes up her beer and in her all-knowing woman's intuition, she sees it out the side of her head and switches them.

What the fuck ever.

Of course women are opressed. Even today.

Look at women's fashion. High heels, skirts, push up bras....all of women's fashion is designed for limited mobility. And to be more appealing for men in general. What's hotter for a guy then a good-looking woman who can't run?

Reality TV takes no prisoners when it comes to outrageous sexism. Shows like "The Bachelor", "Rock of Love" and so on show women going all out to be "pretty" or "sex freaks" to appeal the man on the show (Brett Michaels, I hate you! ). Why can't a man love a woman for her integrity, her personality, her genius? Why must women dumb themselves down for men?? And worse yet, why must this be passed off as D-list entertainment????

Even in the workplace, there is a disparity in wages between men and women. Women get paid less for doing the same job as a man.

Despite this, women are making major headway in industry and education. Heck, more people nowadays would prefer girls to boys. Check out this article:

The End Of Men:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/

Interesting subject...i always wonder who oppresses women? Is it really the men? Or do women oppress other women? For example, who says women should raise their children a certain way?

If guys oppress women, why do women let oppress themselves? I'm talking western culture here, but if a woman let's go of everything, what is her loss? That she can't get a man?

By the way, i think it's somewhat changing for men too....for example, the pressure to go to the gym and look good is there too...but i'm gay, i'm used to that

we stressed, depressed, oppressed, and a hot mess....

Australias "chain of command"....

PM

Governor-General

Queen...

all women

The paralells drawn between women's oppression (even in supposed free nations) and men's oppression, I find rather amusing. The levels of oppression are not even close. Women are getting the short end of the stick everywhere.

Even public policy expresses this 'rubber stamp sexism" everywhere. The US calls some countries 'allies' which oppress women openly in laws. There is no Bosnian style initiative to free oppressed women in the world, yet there are more women in the world who are essentially being oppressed and doomed to slavery than any other ethnic or social group out there.

We endorse it in our policies by continuing to call heinous governess like that of Saudi Arabia "allies" proving a woman is not worth the price of oil. We continue to exasterbate it here in the USA by throw sheep's clothing over it. Even our language reflects the secondary nature of femininity toward masculinity "woman", "women", "she". Some women I know are actually shocked when I tell them women in the US are not equal to men and that "woman's suffrage" doesn't imply equality. They actually think I'm being an ass, but it's the truth--women are not equal to men in the USA. Women are a protected 'group'. How else can you explain the fact men still hold the most management positions and enjoy bigger salaries for the same type of work?

Even in far left countries and governments where women are by law equal (like China), but upbringing and status they are still not equal. Chinese orphanages are overun by girls, and 3 out of 4 registered babies in China are boys--this means parents are murdering baby girls so they can have a boy..... in a country where by law women are actually equal!

I laugh when I used to hear my female friends pull their girl power bullshit--there is no girl power...You're being duped if you believe it. The entire planet, (enlightened supposed free and civilized countries included), has a very long way to go.

TheVoid said:

The paralells drawn between women's oppression (even in supposed free nations) and men's oppression, I find rather amusing. The levels of oppression are not even close. Women are getting the short end of the stick everywhere.

Even public policy expresses this 'rubber stamp sexism" everywhere. The US calls some countries 'allies' which oppress women openly in laws. There is no Bosnian style initiative to free oppressed women in the world, yet there are more women in the world who are essentially being oppressed and doomed to slavery than any other ethnic or social group out there.

We endorse it in our policies by continuing to call heinous governess like that of Saudi Arabia "allies" proving a woman is not worth the price of oil. We continue to exasterbate it here in the USA by throw sheep's clothing over it. Even our language reflects the secondary nature of femininity toward masculinity "woman", "women", "she". Some women I know are actually shocked when I tell them women in the US are not equal to men and that "woman's suffrage" doesn't imply equality. They actually think I'm being an ass, but it's the truth--women are not equal to men in the USA. Women are a protected 'group'. How else can you explain the fact men still hold the most management positions and enjoy bigger salaries for the same type of work?

Even in far left countries and governments where women are by law equal (like China), but upbringing and status they are still not equal. Chinese orphanages are overun by girls, and 3 out of 4 registered babies in China are boys--this means parents are murdering baby girls so they can have a boy..... in a country where by law women are actually equal!

I laugh when I used to hear my female friends pull their girl power bullshit--there is no girl power...You're being duped if you believe it. The entire planet, (enlightened supposed free and civilized countries included), has a very long way to go.

And there it is.

TheVoid said:

The paralells drawn between women's oppression (even in supposed free nations) and men's oppression, I find rather amusing. The levels of oppression are not even close. Women are getting the short end of the stick everywhere.

Even public policy expresses this 'rubber stamp sexism" everywhere. The US calls some countries 'allies' which oppress women openly in laws. There is no Bosnian style initiative to free oppressed women in the world, yet there are more women in the world who are essentially being oppressed and doomed to slavery than any other ethnic or social group out there.

We endorse it in our policies by continuing to call heinous governess like that of Saudi Arabia "allies" proving a woman is not worth the price of oil. We continue to exasterbate it here in the USA by throw sheep's clothing over it. Even our language reflects the secondary nature of femininity toward masculinity "woman", "women", "she". Some women I know are actually shocked when I tell them women in the US are not equal to men and that "woman's suffrage" doesn't imply equality. They actually think I'm being an ass, but it's the truth--women are not equal to men in the USA. Women are a protected 'group'. How else can you explain the fact men still hold the most management positions and enjoy bigger salaries for the same type of work?

Even in far left countries and governments where women are by law equal (like China), but upbringing and status they are still not equal. Chinese orphanages are overun by girls, and 3 out of 4 registered babies in China are boys--this means parents are murdering baby girls so they can have a boy..... in a country where by law women are actually equal!

I laugh when I used to hear my female friends pull their girl power bullshit--there is no girl power...You're being duped if you believe it. The entire planet, (enlightened supposed free and civilized countries included), has a very long way to go.

Depressing as hale but true.

I hate a victim mentality. I really do.

Women are only as oppressed as they allow themselves to be.

Genesia said:

I hate a victim mentality. I really do.

Women are only as oppressed as they allow themselves to be.

Agreed.