jeami said:

Once again, it sounds like the non-black folks need to STFU immediately. The ancient Egyptians were black because Egypt is a part of Africa, NOT the Middle East. If you don't believe me, just look at a map. For some strange reason, North Africa is now considered to be the Middle East. I guess people say that because so many Middle Eastern people live there. They don't realize that the Middle Easterners took over that part of Africa years ago. Before they came along, Black folks were in control.

No, Angie isn't fit to play the role because she's WHITE, NOT BLACK OR MIDDLE EASTERN. Then again, this is just a stupid Hollywood movie so what else can you expect?

BTW, I wish Hollywood would stop doing stupid remakes and start making new, original movies. They keep on making the same stupid movies because the industry is racist, sexist, and homophobic. If the industry was more diverse and open-minded, there would be more people that are capable of making decent movies.

[Edited 6/13/10 18:30pm]

For what it's worth, some Egyptians do not consider themselves African. I once got into a discussion with an Egyptian cab driver about how he should see an exhibition (Short Century: Liberation & Independence Movements in Africa) and he was like, "I'm not from Africa." Silly me, I thought Egypt was on the continent of Africa. I think northern Africa (ie Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, etc.) does not really identify with sub-Saharan Africa.

Put it this way, if Angilina Jolie plays Cleaopatra people of color need to boycott the film big time; including even being in it. Asians were not all that happy about the casting of the "prince of persia"movie and they let it be known.

I don't know how people can say with certainty "what Cleopatra was," when there is a gaping hole in her lineage.

The dynasty of which she was a member - the Ptolemies - were Macedonian Greek, descendants of Alexander the Great. The history of that family is quite well documented.

The one ancestor of Cleopatra's that is in question is her grandmother - who, it is speculated, may have been her grandfather's mistress, rather than his wife. But there is no hard evidence that this is the case, nor any evidence that the mistress was African or Egyptian, rather than of the same ethnic background as the Ptolemies, themselves. The Ptolemies were also xenophobic - not a point in the "Cleopatra was African" camp's favor.

Even if Cleopatra's grandmother were African, that would make her one-quarter African. Is anyone going to dispute that someone who is a quarter African could have light skin and straight hair?

I didn't think so.

Genesia said:

I don't know how people can say with certainty "what Cleopatra was," when there is a gaping hole in her lineage.

The dynasty of which she was a member - the Ptolemies - were Macedonian Greek, descendants of Alexander the Great. The history of that family is quite well documented.

The one ancestor of Cleopatra's that is in question is her grandmother - who, it is speculated, may have been her grandfather's mistress, rather than his wife. But there is no hard evidence that this is the case, nor any evidence that the mistress was African or Egyptian, rather than of the same ethnic background as the Ptolemies, themselves. The Ptolemies were also xenophobic - not a point in the "Cleopatra was African" camp's favor.

Even if Cleopatra's grandmother were African, that would make her one-quarter African. Is anyone going to dispute that someone who is a quarter African could have light skin and straight hair?

I didn't think so.

Genesia, honestly Hollywood notoriously has historical or fictional characters that should be played by people of asian or african ancestry, played instead by caucasians. It's a practice that one would think was long gone but it is not. It is not alot of whining by people of color. I am white and I am telling you it's the truth. Unfortunately I am not someplace where I can refer you to article that discuss this movie by movie.

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia said:

I don't know how people can say with certainty "what Cleopatra was," when there is a gaping hole in her lineage.

The dynasty of which she was a member - the Ptolemies - were Macedonian Greek, descendants of Alexander the Great. The history of that family is quite well documented.

The one ancestor of Cleopatra's that is in question is her grandmother - who, it is speculated, may have been her grandfather's mistress, rather than his wife. But there is no hard evidence that this is the case, nor any evidence that the mistress was African or Egyptian, rather than of the same ethnic background as the Ptolemies, themselves. The Ptolemies were also xenophobic - not a point in the "Cleopatra was African" camp's favor.

Even if Cleopatra's grandmother were African, that would make her one-quarter African. Is anyone going to dispute that someone who is a quarter African could have light skin and straight hair?

I didn't think so.

Genesia, honestly Hollywood notoriously has historical or fictional characters that should be played by people of asian or african ancestry, played instead by caucasians. It's a practice that one would think was long gone but it is not. It is not alot of whining by people of color. I am white and I am telling you it's the truth. Unfortunately I am not someplace where I can refer you to article that discuss this movie by movie.

I don't think anyone on this thread is disputing that Hollywood has a long history of casting caucasians over people of color.

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia said:

I don't know how people can say with certainty "what Cleopatra was," when there is a gaping hole in her lineage.

The dynasty of which she was a member - the Ptolemies - were Macedonian Greek, descendants of Alexander the Great. The history of that family is quite well documented.

The one ancestor of Cleopatra's that is in question is her grandmother - who, it is speculated, may have been her grandfather's mistress, rather than his wife. But there is no hard evidence that this is the case, nor any evidence that the mistress was African or Egyptian, rather than of the same ethnic background as the Ptolemies, themselves. The Ptolemies were also xenophobic - not a point in the "Cleopatra was African" camp's favor.

Even if Cleopatra's grandmother were African, that would make her one-quarter African. Is anyone going to dispute that someone who is a quarter African could have light skin and straight hair?

I didn't think so.

Genesia, honestly Hollywood notoriously has historical or fictional characters that should be played by people of asian or african ancestry, played instead by caucasians. It's a practice that one would think was long gone but it is not. It is not alot of whining by people of color. I am white and I am telling you it's the truth. Unfortunately I am not someplace where I can refer you to article that discuss this movie by movie.

What does the history of casting decisions in Hollywood have to do with the price of pork? Or with what I wrote? Let the record show: that bit about "whining by people of color" is something you said. I never implied anything of the sort.

If Cleopatra were of purely African descent, then yeah - she should be played by a black actress. But she wasn't.

Are you suggesting we should cast a black actress to play Cleopatra (even if Cleopatra wasn't African) as a means of "evening the score?"

Trust me - as a classic film aficionado, I have seen any number of race-based casting atrocities. (You haven't seen the worst of it 'til you've seen whitest-white-actress-ever Katharine Hepburn playing a Chinese woman in Dragon Seed. ) Angelina Jolie as Cleopatra doesn't come close.

[Edited 6/14/10 10:33am]

PANDURITO said:

Ottensen said:

Uuugh. FINALLY, a person of reason here...who knows a good cocktail triumphs over all

I liked the "darker persuasion" part

Ummm, you can go kick rocks with an open toe shoe... I don't drink with

Love & Light !

HamsterHuey said:

Aryll said:

Nevermind, I think I might be wrong. Weren't the Ptolemies Greek/Macedonian?

Yes. The entire thread is a bit funny to me.

funny in a sad way

Ottensen said:

PANDURITO said:

I liked the "darker persuasion" part

Ummm, you can go kick rocks with an open toe shoe... I don't drink with

Love & Light !

Genesia said:

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia, honestly Hollywood notoriously has historical or fictional characters that should be played by people of asian or african ancestry, played instead by caucasians. It's a practice that one would think was long gone but it is not. It is not alot of whining by people of color. I am white and I am telling you it's the truth. Unfortunately I am not someplace where I can refer you to article that discuss this movie by movie.

What does the history of casting decisions in Hollywood have to do with the price of pork? Or with what I wrote? Let the record show: that bit about "whining by people of color" is something you said. I never implied anything of the sort.

If Cleopatra were of purely African descent, then yeah - she should be played by a black actress. But she wasn't.

Are you suggesting we should cast a black actress to play Cleopatra (even if Cleopatra wasn't African) as a means of "evening the score?"

Trust me - as a classic film aficionado, I have seen any number of race-based casting atrocities. (You haven't seen the worst of it 'til you've seen whitest-white-actress-ever Katharine Hepburn playing a Chinese woman in Dragon Seed. ) Angelina Jolie as Cleopatra doesn't come close.

[Edited 6/14/10 10:33am]

Stop the Rain Jesus, Stop the Rain!!!!! I never ever ever said that YOU said the word whining. Never!!!! What I am saying is any complaint about her NOT being played by a woman of color can not be called whining by anyone it's a valid complaint. I never said that you said anything. I don't say a thing about you except to write your name. Hollywood has shit to do with Pork but a great deal to do with racist casting. Having Cleopatra played by an AngloSaxon is just pure Hollywood fiction. Lena Horne talked alot about how Hollywood does the casting in her day and I don't see it changing all that much.

Genesia said:

Harlepolis said:

Aryll said:

I don't think Cleopatra was dark-skinned, but they could have at least gotten a light-skinned black woman to play the part.

She was a BLACK WOMAN period. Light or dark, is beside the point.

Not every shade of person that isn't caucasian is automatically black, i hate it when people scream black straight away.

I'll go with brown for Cleopatra, and more than likely very light brown. Seeing as the lighter, the better = Beauty still exists in that part of the world. For better or worse, that's probably the truth.

[Edited 6/14/10 11:33am]

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia said:

What does the history of casting decisions in Hollywood have to do with the price of pork? Or with what I wrote? Let the record show: that bit about "whining by people of color" is something you said. I never implied anything of the sort.

If Cleopatra were of purely African descent, then yeah - she should be played by a black actress. But she wasn't.

Are you suggesting we should cast a black actress to play Cleopatra (even if Cleopatra wasn't African) as a means of "evening the score?"

Trust me - as a classic film aficionado, I have seen any number of race-based casting atrocities. (You haven't seen the worst of it 'til you've seen whitest-white-actress-ever Katharine Hepburn playing a Chinese woman in Dragon Seed. ) Angelina Jolie as Cleopatra doesn't come close.

[Edited 6/14/10 10:33am]

Stop the Rain Jesus, Stop the Rain!!!!! I never ever ever said that YOU said the word whining. Never!!!! What I am saying is any complaint about her NOT being played by a woman of color can not be called whining by anyone it's a valid complaint. I never said that you said anything. I don't say a thing about you except to write your name. Hollywood has shit to do with Pork but a great deal to do with racist casting. Having Cleopatra played by an AngloSaxon is just pure Hollywood fiction. Lena Horne talked alot about how Hollywood does the casting in her day and I don't see it changing all that much.

I said nothing about the casting of any role whatsoever, so I still don't know why you felt the need to make your point on the back of my post. And I didn't say you said I said people were whining. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that no one else thought I said that based on your comments. Which, again, had nothing to do with my original post.

And Cleopatra may not have been Anglo-Saxon, but she wasn't black African, either. At least, not more than a quarter. So if you want to get all "pure" about it, they oughta find someone Macedonian Greek with maybe/possibly a quarter of Egyptian or or African to play her.

Hershe said:

Genesia said:

Are you suggesting we should cast a black actress to play Cleopatra (even if Cleopatra wasn't African) as a means of "evening the score?"

And why not... Othello, one of my favorites to read was of no interest, to me, to watch until the 1995's version starring Laurence Fishburn. I like "O", the version with Mekhi Phifer as well. We deserve it!

It isn't the same. Othello is a fictional character.

What about Iman... Shes GORGEOUS!

jone70 said:

jeami said:

Once again, it sounds like the non-black folks need to STFU immediately. The ancient Egyptians were black because Egypt is a part of Africa, NOT the Middle East. If you don't believe me, just look at a map. For some strange reason, North Africa is now considered to be the Middle East. I guess people say that because so many Middle Eastern people live there. They don't realize that the Middle Easterners took over that part of Africa years ago. Before they came along, Black folks were in control.

No, Angie isn't fit to play the role because she's WHITE, NOT BLACK OR MIDDLE EASTERN. Then again, this is just a stupid Hollywood movie so what else can you expect?

BTW, I wish Hollywood would stop doing stupid remakes and start making new, original movies. They keep on making the same stupid movies because the industry is racist, sexist, and homophobic. If the industry was more diverse and open-minded, there would be more people that are capable of making decent movies.

[Edited 6/13/10 18:30pm]

For what it's worth, some Egyptians do not consider themselves African. I once got into a discussion with an Egyptian cab driver about how he should see an exhibition (Short Century: Liberation & Independence Movements in Africa) and he was like, "I'm not from Africa." Silly me, I thought Egypt was on the continent of Africa. I think northern Africa (ie Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, etc.) does not really identify with sub-Saharan Africa.

That's very true, i've been to three of those countries. Tunisia has lot's of French inspired architecture that's especially beautiful, i think they almost see themselves as European. Very easy going Muslim country too. The women there frown on wearing scarves and hijabs after one of their most revered leaders in the last century called on them to throw it away, also the first muslim country to allow women an education.

Genesia said:

Deadflow3r said:

Stop the Rain Jesus, Stop the Rain!!!!! I never ever ever said that YOU said the word whining. Never!!!! What I am saying is any complaint about her NOT being played by a woman of color can not be called whining by anyone it's a valid complaint. I never said that you said anything. I don't say a thing about you except to write your name. Hollywood has shit to do with Pork but a great deal to do with racist casting. Having Cleopatra played by an AngloSaxon is just pure Hollywood fiction. Lena Horne talked alot about how Hollywood does the casting in her day and I don't see it changing all that much.

I said nothing about the casting of any role whatsoever, so I still don't know why you felt the need to make your point on the back of my post. And I didn't say you said I said people were whining. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that no one else thought I said that based on your comments. Which, again, had nothing to do with my original post.

And Cleopatra may not have been Anglo-Saxon, but she wasn't black African, either. At least, not more than a quarter. So if you want to get all "pure" about it, they oughta find someone Macedonian Greek with maybe/possibly a quarter of Egyptian or or African to play her.

I guess I mistakenly thought that you were saying that it is OK that she not be played by actress who was neither of African or Asian descent. That is why I addressed your comment. If I am wrong and in fact you, like me, believe she should NOT be played by a caucasian then I am sorry for misreading your posts.

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia said:

I said nothing about the casting of any role whatsoever, so I still don't know why you felt the need to make your point on the back of my post. And I didn't say you said I said people were whining. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that no one else thought I said that based on your comments. Which, again, had nothing to do with my original post.

And Cleopatra may not have been Anglo-Saxon, but she wasn't black African, either. At least, not more than a quarter. So if you want to get all "pure" about it, they oughta find someone Macedonian Greek with maybe/possibly a quarter of Egyptian or or African to play her.

I guess I mistakenly thought that you were saying that it is OK that she not be played by actress who was neither of African or Asian descent. That is why I addressed your comment. If I am wrong and in fact you, like me, believe she should NOT be played by a caucasian then I am sorry for misreading your posts.

No, I don't think she has to played by an African - because she wasn't more than a quarter African, if that. And she damn sure wasn't Asian.

Man - we need some remedial reading classes up in this joint.

Genesia said:

Deadflow3r said:

I guess I mistakenly thought that you were saying that it is OK that she not be played by actress who was neither of African or Asian descent. That is why I addressed your comment. If I am wrong and in fact you, like me, believe she should NOT be played by a caucasian then I am sorry for misreading your posts.

No, I don't think she has to played by an African - because she wasn't more than a quarter African, if that. And she damn sure wasn't Asian.

Man - we need some remedial reading classes up in this joint.

I was being sarcastic.

Didn't Angelina play a woman of colour and play her pretty well recently?

I don't see the big deal.

It's called acting.

Marrk said:

Didn't Angelina play a woman of colour and play her pretty well recently?

I don't see the big deal.

It's called acting.

Lena Horne did a big thing on this. Basically all the good white roles go to whites and then with enough of the right make-up all the good rolls for women of color go to white actresses also. The leads in the movie "Prince of Persia" are all being played by my fellow caucasians, is that because there aren't any people of Asian descent that can act? Of course not.

SCNDLS said:

noimageatall said:

Okaaaaayyyy....

http://www.dailymail.co.u...patra.html

Sorry Liz, but THIS is the real face of Cleopatra

By Fiona Macrae
Last updated at 11:34 AM on 16th December 2008

I can be yo suga mama too.

Well, I am coming to TX in a few weeks. We can discuss this in detail.

Deadflow3r said:

Genesia said:

No, I don't think she has to played by an African - because she wasn't more than a quarter African, if that. And she damn sure wasn't Asian.

Man - we need some remedial reading classes up in this joint.

I was being sarcastic.

Okay, I don't get how that was sarcastic, either. Whatever.

Genesia said:

Deadflow3r said:

I was being sarcastic.

Okay, I don't get how that was sarcastic, either. Whatever.

I don't have time to spell it out. Anyway lets just agree to disagree and hopefully I will meet you again on a thread where we are not at polar opposite viewpoints and we can agree on something.

paintedlady said:

Angelina in a spray on tan

Thank you!

and wtf is this shit?

Who in the hell says or thinks Jolie looks like Cleopatra (the seventh!) Yeah there were seven of them. Why does she look like Cleo? Because she got big lips?

There's so many things people don't learn in these punk ass movies. Are they going to include the fact that Cleopatra had children by Marc Anthony? Will they acknowledge that Ceasar was her third husband?

Oh well....this shit gonna flop just like Oliver Stone's Alexander. She was in that hot mess as well.

DesireeNevermind said:

paintedlady said:

Angelina in a spray on tan

Thank you!

and wtf is this shit?

Still sounds like any old biography to me, but the real news here is Jolie. Isn't it about time she played Cleo? Not only does she look the part

Who in the hell says or thinks Jolie looks like Cleopatra (the seventh!) Yeah there were seven of them. Why does she look like Cleo? Because she got big lips?

There's so many things people don't learn in these punk ass movies. Are they going to include the fact that Cleopatra had children by Marc Anthony? Will they acknowledge that Ceasar was her third husband?

Oh well....this shit gonna flop just like Oliver Stone's Alexander. She was in that hot mess as well.

According to many Cleo was homely. Now I don't know how Liz Taylor and others found that out but she didn't rely solely on looks to seduce.

Genesia said:

I don't know how people can say with certainty "what Cleopatra was," when there is a gaping hole in her lineage.

The dynasty of which she was a member - the Ptolemies - were Macedonian Greek, descendants of Alexander the Great. The history of that family is quite well documented.

The one ancestor of Cleopatra's that is in question is her grandmother - who, it is speculated, may have been her grandfather's mistress, rather than his wife. But there is no hard evidence that this is the case, nor any evidence that the mistress was African or Egyptian, rather than of the same ethnic background as the Ptolemies, themselves. The Ptolemies were also xenophobic - not a point in the "Cleopatra was African" camp's favor.

Even if Cleopatra's grandmother were African, that would make her one-quarter African. Is anyone going to dispute that someone who is a quarter African could have light skin and straight hair?

I didn't think so.

It's not just a matter of her lineage having holes in it on her mother's side...it's also the fact that on her father's side (the ptolemies) there are also holes - about 3/4 of her heritage is not fully documented. The Ptolomies were quite incestuous and also had outside children (via concubines). Her paternal grandmother may have been Nubian and her mother may have been native Egyptian...again these peple are conspicuously left out of the Cleopatra equation and as we often see from the European perspective it is most likely due to them being black. Also, one should consider that even in warring times, it would have been customary for the invaders to marry the native royals in order to secure the thrown and gain some level of acceptance from the masses...that's pretty much how the Greeks come into Egypt royalty. So one could argue that Cleopatra definitely had some Eqyptian (black) blood in her...the question is how much. Enough for her to be the first ruler in her family to speak the native tongue of Egypt? Perhaps we shouldn't merely ask if Cleopatra was black but also ask if she was even Greek? At best,,,she's mixed race. And we don't know the texture of her hair nor her skin tone. We are guessing and that's no good because look at the differences you get with people who are 1/2 white and 1/2 black. Look at the striking difference between Jennifer Beals and Halle Berry. The end results of race mixing aren't always the same.

I'm so annoyed at this. I like Angelina but this isn't right. This is just lazy, inaccurate casting as usual. :eyeroll:

I'd love to see any of these ladies of color in the role:

As long as it's not Beyonce, I guess I should be glad...

So which Cleopatra are you guys talking about since there were Seven Cleopatras.

[Edited 6/14/10 13:16pm]

2elijah said:

So which Cleopatra are you guys talking about since there were Seven Cleopatras.

[Edited 6/14/10 13:16pm]

you know, the one who looked black but was white..........