7e7e7 said:

7e7e7 said:

I think that may be one of my goals for the new year. Learn a new language just for the pleasure of it. I can't decide which, though. I know bits and pieces of french so it would be easiest to start up again. Spanish would be most practical, especially in my new neighborhood with lots of immigrants. And I'd looooove the learn italian. I want to retire in italy. Like, next year or something.



I think part of the reason americans haven't valued learning other languages so much is we were first trying to establish ourselves as a common country with a common language, despite the varied backgrounds. It was just another thing to unite us. Then, just by matter of geography, it is difficult to travel anywhere that anyone speaks any other langauge. We didn't have much need to learn them. And, let's face it, traveling overseas for leisure is still only a reality for the comfortable middle class. Many in Europe can get to another country in a few hours on a train and for little money. When I planned my first backpacking trip to Europe, it cost me about 4 months salary, and we did it as cheaply as possible. And I had a decent job for that age, no kids, no car, etc. It's still a difficult thing for me to do and I make much more than I did back then. And I still don't have any kids or a car.
Now is the time for us to turn that around. And it's happening, slowly but surely. My friend is consdering putting her children in Chinese immersion school. They won't use english in school at all, other than "english class". There are programs like that all over the cities in Minnesota, for other languages as well.

Imago said:

Oh fuck me.

The internet is going to drive me mad!!!!

I totally agree with you about foreigners who are lazy about learning Thai. When a friend of mine pronounces chicken as 'khai' rather than 'kai' or says 'mai ao' (I don't want) instead of 'mai ruu' (I don't know) I think 'fuck! even after 10 years here you can't get that shit right??' He does speak a bit of Thai though, but he doesn't have the accent right either. I can't see how you can NOT pick it up if you spend a lot of time here, but I guess lots of foreigners simply don't mix much with Thais and don't ever hear it on the radio or on TV.

I love speaking Thai, it's a lot of fun.

connorhawke said:

Lawd!

Fauxie said:

People have a hard time acquiring brand new languages after puberty.
Pronunciation is often the hardest element to master for such people.

rushing07 said:

Is that so? Makes sense. I would say with Thai though, it's reading and writing that are most difficult. Speaking's relatively easy to get into owing to the simple nature of the language (frequent use of certain common words, bizarre context-driven approach to grammar, tenses etc.). I have never consciously tried to learn the tones though. I'm sure I make a LOT of mistakes with tones when speaking (I'm looking forward to Dan correcting me ), so context and a decent accent must be bridging that gap. Still, basic conversation is very easy to pick up in Thai because there simply aren't that many different words used.

It can be as simple as this if you're being casual:

- Are you going? Pai plao?
- I'm not going. Plao
- Why not? Thammai?
- Can't be fucked. Khiikyat
- Really? Jing lor?
- Really. Jing jing.
- It's because you're seeing that hot Thai-American guy again isn't it? Pai jeur ai doot Thai-America nae nae chai mai?
- Yes! Now fuck off so I can get some cushions and mood lighting up in this bitch. Thuuk trong loei khrap! Bai klai klai phom ja ao morn kap fai romantic maa kheun thii hiiah nii.

Ok, I think I got carried away there.

I wish I could read Bangkok's (Krungthep Mahanakhorn) full name:



Thankfully most road signs are in English. Not so with street-side noodle vendors though.

Fauxie said:

Actually, I think Thai is quite difficult to speak because it isn't so much spoke as "sung". The tones are are absolute and can never be broken despite the persons itentions or mood. A rising tone on a word never changes. I think Thai's compensate for this rigid tonal structure by raising and lowering their voice and very animated facial features to place emphasis where Americans use the actual tone for emphasis. I can say, "You are very well hung" and mean it as a question or a statement depending on the tone I assign to the last word in that sentence, hung . If hung is spoken with a rising tone, it's inferred that there is a question being asked. So our limited use of tones changes the meaning, intensity, and intent of what is being spoken.

So I honestly think Thai is quite difficult to speak.

So far, I don't find it terribly difficult to write or read (albeit I'm on week 2.5 and only have half the Alphabet ).

But once I learned how to write my name, แดน , the beauty of the language is
that I can show it to any Thai speaking person and they can read it phonetically
correct, every time. They immediately know that word is pronounced "Dan".

So even though there are 44 letters in the alphabet (2 are obsolete and 8 are rarely used, so it's really more like 30-something letters to learn), these letters produce fewer sounds (far fewer) than in English, and are phonetic. They will also produce repeatable sounds once learned.... you'll never have a situation like this in English:

EA = ea in year, or eh in pear, or awn in Sean. It simply would never happen in Thai. So learning to read/write accelerates learning to speak.


I'm not going to lie--it's taking me forever to memorize the difference
between letters like Daw-Dek (the 'a' in Dan) and Koh-Kwai (making a beginning and ending 'k' sound). They look very similar to us folks who use the
phonetician alphabet: ค and ด ... also, ฌ and ณ

Believe it or not, I've finally been able to recognize the differences relatively easily. I had to write and say aloud to myself these letters
about 500 times each

.


PS: You are well hung (rising tone)
[Edited 12/19/09 21:23pm]

Fauxie said:

This is the primary reason why I'm learning Thai. I'm tired of reading Thai menus and not recognizing anything on them.

I know the words for about 6 or 7 Thai dishes now by heart, but up until last week could not spot any of them written in Thai. Now, I can at least spot Grapow Gai or anything with pork in it (Moo)

7e7e7 said:

7e7e7 said:

OK.

I'm' trying to learn Thai. I'm up to 23 letters of the Thai alphabet and can even read a few words based on this. But I need to learn 21 more in order to actually truly 'read' Thai.

However, my spoken Thai, though the vocabulary is quickly expanding, is still regretfully off the mark. I can't hit the 'tones' correctly half the time, and I have great difficulty in pronouncing some of the words.


Take for example, the Thai letter in the alphabet: ง
It literally means "snake", and is pronounced ngah ngoo
The immediate and obvious problem for Americans is that we don't have any words in our language that begin with the "ng" sound. We use it all the time to end words, however, such as : thing, song, thing, sang, wrong. But, never ever does it begin a word for us.
Not so with Thai. It's as common as beginning a word with the "T", "Ky" or "P" sound. And this is really really giving me some difficulty.


I sat on the bus with a young Thai student the other day, no more than 20 or 21 years of age. A very handsome, polite, and just all around terrific young man...made sort of wish I was younger and he was gay so I could have a go with his tight little ass, if only he weren't a student of sorts. Anyways, he saw me reading one of my German books (I'm currently trying to learn German as well), and he asked me to tell him about Germany. Apperantly, he wants to go to Germany for his MBA in music in Hamburg, but knows little about Germany itself. He's quite good at Germany, and has been studying it for 2 years. He speaks it better than most Americans I know speak it (with a decent accent probably more understandable to Germans than mine would be), and his English was pretty decent too. Apparently he knows German, English, Thai (of course), and a little bit of Chinese and Japanese.

We had a very pleasant conversation, but after we parted ways, I became a bit annoyed. I started thinking.... Why is it that English speaking citizens suck so badly at other languages? We must look terribly stupid in the eyes of non-English speaking citizens.
I thought about the line in Terintino's last film "Inglorious Basterdz" of the female lead saying, "Don't you Americans know ANY languages other than English?"

But we really don't. Sure, there are a few who take the initiative to learn, but they are not the norm. We, in general, suck ass at it. It's kind of embarassing.

Then later that evening, after my class, I wanted to grab some food. This weekend looks like it's going to be the 'quite' weekend I was hoping for--no concerts, no clubs, just me and some books. But sitting in the restaurant waiting for my food to be served, I overheard a group of Americans and Brits ordering from the Thai waitress. She was obviously Thai, and obviously didn't know but a few words in English, and yet they spoke to her in English, at a regular pace, with no regard to wether she would understand.
When she told them that she didn't understand (She said this in Thai and not English), they spoke more slowly.

But I kept thinking, "Bitch, repeating 'basil chicken' 30 times (it wasn't on the menu but they'll cook it for you) isn't going to make her understand you any more. Speak Thai you arrogant bastard."
I finally, annoyed by their request and arrogance cut in and told her "Grapow (sp?) Gai, Krup." which is the word for basil chicken. The arrogant ass thanked me for it but obviously thought I wasn't American. I said, "Mai Bin Lai" back to him not bother with English at the moment. Then I looked at the waitress and said, "Phet Mach" which means "Very spicy" just because I was irritated by the fool.


But anyways, my Thai sucks. But at least I try.
Why is it that westerners who speak English don't even bother trying?

It gets on my nerves.



[Edited 12/18/09 20:09pm]

unfunny ~svn seven

What exactly is a "jank"?

PurpleJedi said:

yank, but jankity?

sounds like what my mum might say when trying to say yank, she also says yacket, yetty and jellow but then english ISN'T her first language so she is excused

not EXCUTED

roodboi said:

What is turkey with all the 'fixenz'????

I mean..... WHAT. IS. THAT?!?!?!?!?

Imago said:

PurpleJedi said:

yank, but jankity?

sounds like what my mum might say when trying to say yank, she also says yacket, yetty and jellow but then english ISN'T her first language so she is excused

not EXCUTED
[Edited 12/20/09 17:35pm]

ZombieKitten said:

She is Swedish, right? I remember hearing this kind of pronounciation last time when I was in Lund, Sweden. When I think about how many Swedish folks pronounce stuff in English somehow this sketch here came into my head ....

fast-forward to approx. 3:50

purplehippieonthe1 said:

wow he does a southern swedish accent!!!

it's not pronounced yam, it's pronounced YAM!

ZombieKitten said:

But now they've shaynged it to yelly.